Researching a trailer brake combination

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Sep 7, 2011
13
Hi,

My S2 6.8 came with a tandem axle ez loader 6.0 trailer. The trailer is tandem axle and has surge brakes only on the front axle. This set up is original and the trailer was manufactured sometime in 1978.

I am contemplating rebuilding the surge drums on the front axle and adding electric drums on the rear axle. I think this would be a good combination with me being able to adjust the braking power from the driver's seat.

My van already has the rv plug on the hitch and a controller in the dash to work with electric brakes. I know that fulton makes electric brakes designed for marine application and even salt water use.

I am looking for your opinion on why this would be a bad idea.

Thanks,

Marcin
 
Dec 3, 2010
74
Oday 25 N/A
I have been researching this off season on options for replacing my non-working surge brakes on my O'day 25 trailer. I am going strictly electric brakes on one axle and here are the reasons why. And these are only opinions.

My boat and trailer weigh in in the neighborhood of 5000 lbs. From what I have read on forums online, people hauling similar weights with two axle trailers seem to do just fine with adding brakes to one axle only. I have not really seen people installing dual axle brakes on loads less then 9000 lbs. Also, if i was looking at putting two dissimilar brake systems on the axles I would consult a professional installer about the implications of their operation while towing. I would be concerned that their dissimilar operation might cause a problem in braking situations. I may be over thinking it.

As far as the type of brakes go, I like the electric brakes. They seem very easy to use, very easy to install, and they are on the cheap side. If you already have the brake controller on your van 60% of the work is already completed for you. It really seems like the hassle in the electric brake installation is the controller to a vehicle that does not have a tow package. I also like the electric brakes because of their price. They are cheap and if the need to be replaced its not going to kill your wallet.

I hope these ramblings help a little.

Here is where I have been getting my pricing info.
http://www.etrailer.com/
 

Doug L

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Sep 9, 2006
80
South Coast 22 MI
I don't think having surge brakes on one axle and electric on the other will work out very well. Because the surge brake relies on the trailer pressing on the hitch to apply the brakes, when the electric brake comes on it will take the load off the surge brake. I suspect the result will be the electric brakes being the ones that actually stop the trailer. I would go with all surge brakes, or all electric. I have not used electric brakes on a boat trailer, what I have heard is that they are OK in fresh water, but corrode rapidly in salt water. One advantage of all electric, is it allows you to use a sway control on your trailer, you cannot use one with surge brakes. BTW, why not add surge brakes to your other axle?
 
Jan 2, 2008
547
Hunter 33 (Cherubini design Forked River, Barnegat Bay, NJ
Guys; I think you might be overcomplicating things a wee bit. First off electric brakes on a trailer that will regularly be totaly immersed in water is considered a not so good idea. Think about miles of fine copper magnet wire sittting in water. That is the magnets that activate the brake servo action. I figure this is the reason not one boat trailer maker supplies electro magnetic brakes.

Brakes on one or both axles? Charts showing state by state trailer laws indicate that when a state calls for brakes they usualy want them on both axles. Some states like New Jersey simply state you must be able to stop your trailer from a given speed in a given distance. As I recall that spec was not hard to meet at all. Most boat trailers I have seen have surge (hydraullic) brakes only on the front of the two axles. Almost all factory set ups I have seen are hydraulic drums, probably because it is currently cheaper than disk and thats what even the best trailer makers love. I am on my third trailer boat rig with brakes. All have been Performance/Magic Tilt brand. Essentialy the same thing. Surge drums on front axle only. One was weighed at 5800 lbs. next was about 4500 lbs. Current is a Horizon cat boat on a Performance trailer which I estimate at about 4000 lbs. (Haven't had it long enought to get weighed.) All of these worked most adequately. I do have electric brakes on a travel trailer and my feeling is they are nothing to write home about. They are picky, finicky and never seem to do what you expect them to do. Surge on the other hand, is simple. You hit the tow vehicle brakes it slows. The trailer pushes against the tow vehicle, activating the brakes. The system maintains equilibrium till you are stopped. This is also based on the fact that I have a more than adequate tow vehicle. 7600 lbs of diesel pickup truck does just fine with 4000 to 8000 lbs of trailer.

The simple secret to making the surge system work? LUBRICATE the surge coupler sliding mechanism. Dry vs lubed is night and day. I use whatever spray lube is at the front of the shelf. That is usualy a "marine" pray grease I get at Home depot.

My Com Pac Horizon Cat is a KEEPER. I will have it for a good number of years to come. When the time comes to replace the brakes on the trailer it will be with surge disks. Most likely stainless as almost everything I do is in salty water. I'll move the drum hubs back the the back axle without connecting them. I might even move the brake backing plates back just for looks. I don't see that the second axle of brakesis all that necessary. The law says I have to have brakes on both axles. They don't say both axles have to work.

I'm all for keeping life simple. Stick with the surge.

One other thing. On a 1979 boat trailer i would look VERY carefully at the metal tube the trailer is made of. It is most likely square tubing, galvanized or painted. Either way they most often rust out from the inside out where you can't see it. Take a light ball peen to it and listen to the difference in the sound. Just like pinnging a hull for the sound it makes. I once hauled a friend's older square tube trailer about 5 miles for him. At the end of that easy, slow trip the trailer had broken itself in three places.
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
........... I do have electric brakes on a travel trailer and my feeling is they are nothing to write home about. They are picky, finicky and never seem to do what you expect them to do. Surge on the other hand, is simple. You hit the tow vehicle brakes it slows. The trailer pushes against the tow vehicle, activating the brakes. The system maintains equilibrium till you are stopped....................


.......... When the time comes to replace the brakes on the trailer it will be with surge disks...... .
Ditto, I have electric on a car hauler trailer and put ....



...surge disc on the Mac trailer when I added a second axle....

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor2/trailer-mods-8.html

....the surge disc work much better than the electrics on the other trailer. Also I could tow with any vehicle and any person could be driving.

Sure elect. are cheaper, but the first time you have to replace them now ask yourself did you save money.

The surge discs will operating in a water environment with less maintenance and easier maintenance when needed. I love them.

Here is some info....

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Simple, effective and a proven performer on tens of thousands of trailers, this brake system has been the braking package of choice for most boat trailer owners for decades. The vast majority of boat trailer hydraulic surge brake systems are package with drum brakes, however they can be used with disc brakes with equal effectiveness. Both systems, however, have their own unique design, installation, and maintenance considerations. [/FONT]
http://www.championtrailers.com/brkart.html#hydraulic_brake_basics

Also on there they recommend if you have 2 axles and are only putting brakes on one then put them on the back axle. I did that, but have read where lots of people have them on the front, so don't know how much difference that really makes.

I bought the surge disc kit with everything needed, if the axle has the bracket on it, here....

http://www.blackbearsportinggoods.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ELLTIED82101&click=12

The kit is $418 now, but was $380 a couple weeks ago and seems to go up and down with them. Also it looks like they are out-of-stock now,

Sum

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Sep 5, 2007
689
MacGregor 26X Rochester
I'm with Sumner on this one. I put disc brakes on the rear axle of my 26X OEM steel trailer (PO moved original axle and added a second one). I may add discs to the front axle this spring, as I'm planning on taking it to the Carolinas this fall, and pulling with a Toyota Highlander, while fine for power, might benefit from the extra braking.

I used a kit from etrailer, with a new coupler (exactly like the OEM coupler, only not rusted, and with a disc brake master cylinder, which has smaller bore for higher pressure), rotors, bearings, seals, and brake lines. Oh, and it came with a reverse lockout solenoid valve, which I connect to the running lights when I need to back up (disconnected normally).

It was under $400 for a single axle kit, and about $600 for tandem axle. Cheaper to buy for both axles at that time, but what can I say?

Having brakes on both axles will result in less trailer force to the ball, resulting in less braking force required of the tow vehicle brakes, but that may not matter much with a robust vehicle. My vehicle could probably benefit from having the extra brakes on the trailer, at least during panic stops. While I'm plenty careful on the road, it's the unexpected you have to expect, so I'll probably spend the bucks and do the work.

Oh, and I'll never bother with drums again if I can at all help it. :dance:

Here's the kit I bought. The hardest part was getting the old coupler off, since it was welded and I no longer have a torch. Went through a number of grinding discs, but worth it in the end. The new one is bolted on for easy service or replacement in the future.

http://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Brakes/Titan/T4843100.html
 

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Sumner

.
Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
....Oh, and I'll never bother with drums again if I can at all help it. :dance:

Here's the kit I bought. The hardest part was getting the old coupler off, since it was welded and I no longer have a torch. Went through a number of grinding discs, but worth it in the end. The new one is bolted on for easy service or replacement in the future.

http://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Brakes/Titan/T4843100.html
That looks like a nice kit and the price it right. I'm happy with brakes on just the one axle, but if I was going over 4000 lb. I think I'd like them on both also. Our S is lighter than you X, but ours is also a lot more loaded than most S's and I haven't weighed it (trailer/boat), but I'll bet it comes in at least at 3500 total which I think is about the weight of a X or M and trailer. Still load those down and they could go over 4000. I'd like to hear how you feel the braking is with the 2nd set after you do that compared to only brakes on a single axle.

Thanks,

Sum

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Nov 9, 2008
1,338
Pearson-O'Day 290 Portland Maine
I put a kit of surge-drum brakes on mine. It was $351 for the kit. If I had it to do again, I'd pay the extra $50 and put the disks on instead. Maintenance is a big thing. Also you can wash disks easier and actually inspect them as needed. Disks are the way to go.
 
Sep 7, 2011
13
Guys,

Thank you for all of your great replies.

Just to throw more fuel to the fire......

Loadmaster is a well known boat trailer manufacturer. They install electric YES ELECTRIC brakes on all axles of their trailers.

http://www.loadmastertrailerco.com/faq2/

Their explanation is quite interesting.

I would love to hear from somebody who has been towing their boat on a trailer with electric brakes.

Thanks,

Marcin
 
Sep 5, 2007
689
MacGregor 26X Rochester
Loadmaster referrs to surge brakes not being legal in all states, but federal law allows surge brakes on all trailers used in interstate commerce, which must also comply with certain vehicle combo requirements, specifically trailers under 20,001 lb not exceeding 1.25 times the tow vehicle GVWR, or under 12,001 lb and not exceeding 1.75 times the GVWR of the tow vehicle. Something like that.

But, if true, many states put restrictions on non-commercial trailers. I would think that commercial vehicles would have tougher restrictions, but if I understand it correctly, the state laws were spawned by federal laws from some time back for commercial vehicles, which have now been changed due to lobbying from trailer rental companies and such.

Here's a link to the Federal Register. Looks like it was put in place in 2007.

http://www.federalregister.gov/arti...y-for-safe-operation-surge-brake-requirements
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
Loadmaster referrs to surge brakes not being legal in all states, but federal law allows surge brakes on all trailers used in interstate commerce, which must also comply with certain vehicle combo requirements, specifically trailers under 20,001 lb not exceeding 1.25 times the tow vehicle GVWR, or under 12,001 lb and not exceeding 1.75 times the GVWR of the tow vehicle. Something like that.

But, if true, many states put restrictions on non-commercial trailers. I would think that commercial vehicles would have tougher restrictions, but if I understand it correctly, the state laws were spawned by federal laws from some time back for commercial vehicles, which have now been changed due to lobbying from trailer rental companies and such.

Here's a link to the Federal Register. Looks like it was put in place in 2007.

http://www.federalregister.gov/arti...y-for-safe-operation-surge-brake-requirements
Yep Loadmaster is using that as far as I'm concerned as a scare tactic. Here is another link also....

http://www.centrevilletrailer.com/news-notices/surgebrakelaw.htm

So according to the law even a 4,000 lb. tow vehicle would be legal towing a 7000 lb. trailer. I'm sure that would cover any of us trailer sailors and most all vehicles weigh over 4,000 lbs. now so chances are you could pull even more than 7000 lbs. The law is there to stop 20,000 lb. plus vehicles from using surge. I think the reason is that then the trailer would so out weight the tow vehicle that it could just push it in an emergency situation. That can also be the case trying to tow a heavy trailer with a very small vehicle regardless of if it has elect. or surge brakes. U-Haul uses surge on their trailers, but also has limitations as to what they will let you tow with. Their trailers with the long tongues and surge brakes tow great.

I haven't read all of the Loadmaster stuff yet, but believe that their electric brakes are not quite the same as the cheapies that most people want to install, so I don't think price wise you would come out ahead with theirs. I would think that theirs are better than the electric brakes you are going to commonly find and priced accordingly.

Put surge discs on and be done with it or put the electrics on and report back to us in a couple years ;),

Sum

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Jul 23, 2009
881
Beneteau 31 Oceanis Grand Lake, Oklahoma
If you can economically repair the surge brakes do it. Otherwise my vote is for single axle disk surge.

I have a trailer that doesn't have brakes, two trailers with electric brakes and one trailer with surge brakes. The sailboat trailer has surge drum brakes on only one axle and it stops better than all the others. They were non functional when I bought the trailer and it towed ok but I wanted the extra safety margin of working brakes. The first time I towed the boat after fixing the brakes someone pulled out infront of me and stoped, it was nice to know that the trailer had working brakes.

Be sure to inspect and adjust them.
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,538
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
I think related to the original question..

When professionally designed dual axle trailers have only a brake on a single axle, is it usually the front axle? This was the configuration of the OP's trailer but a couple of the aftermarket modified trailers have the single brake on the rear axle.

Is seems to me that with independent suspension on the trailers axles, when you go from one axle to two axles, each tire in the dual axle trailer would have 1/2 the weight of each tire in the single axle config. Since both traction and the ability of a tire to stop are proportional to weight on the tire, only having brakes on one axle of dual axle trailer would "in theory" only have 1/2 the braking capability of a single axle trailer with brakes. This is probably at least part of the reason a lot of states require brakes on both axles.

Also, it seems that if you have any tongue weight, there is going to be a higher weight on the front axle than on the rear axle. The higher the tongue weight, the larger the imbalance ie, the higher the tongue weight, the higher the weight on the front axle compared to the rear. So you would want the brakes on the front axle – like the OP’s professionally designed trailer. Also, the braking action likely transfers weight to the front axle - same as for a car - and another reason you would want the brakes on the front axle if you only had the brakes on one axle..
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
... Also, the braking action likely transfers weight to the front axle - same as for a car - and another reason you would want the brakes on the front axle if you only had the brakes on one axle..
Seems the opposite happens with a trailer that has an equalizer...

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When only one brake axle is being installed on a tandem axle trailer, the brakes should be on the rear axle for maximum system performance. Rotational torque applied to axles during braking shifts the equalizer and applies more weight to rear axle. If brakes are installed on the front axle, the wheel may skid during braking. Brakes on rear axle are more effective as the equalizers shifts and the rear tires dig in to the pavement.[/FONT]
http://www.championtrailers.com/techsup.html#techretro

When I was adding brakes I assumed the front axle, but Champion's site above convinced me otherwise. I think if the two axles are torsional then the ball game changes and a number of people do have the brakes on the front axle and have 2 axles with an equalizer and seem to stop just fine. I'm thinking that brakes on either axle are a lot better than on none,

Sum

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walt

.
Jun 1, 2007
3,538
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I see Champion also says this here http://www.championtrailers.com/DrumVsDiscBrakeArtcl.htm[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Any trailer that has tandem or triple axles that does not have brakes on all axles can be a recipe for disaster.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Invariably multi-axle trailers should have brakes on all axles for safety’s sake. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The DMV of each state has it’s own regulations regarding the braking requirements on trailers, however SAFETY CONSIDERATIONS make it VERY important that the trailer owner strongly consider putting brakes on all axles of a multi-axle trailer. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Properly working brakes can be the difference between a tragic accident or a close call. [/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[/FONT]Of course.. Ive been pulling the 3000 pound trailer for years without brakes at all :eek:

Edit .. I also looked up the equilizer to see what the heck this is ttp://www.modmyrv.com/2009/03/27/rv-leaf-spring-equalizer and can see how this would tranfer weight to the rear axle under braking.
 
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Sep 26, 2008
566
- - Noank CT.
I'll move the drum hubs back the the back axle without connecting them. I might even move the brake backing plates back just for looks. I don't see that the second axle of brakesis all that necessary. The law says I have to have brakes on both axles. They don't say both axles have to work.
Sam,
May I suggest you reconsider this idea. Clearly if your state requires brakes on both axles they will need to be working to meet the state laws . Ask any state motor vehicle inspector or state trooper. The laws requires that if they are installed on a vehicle they must work.
Your trailer will not pass any state inspection (if required in your state). You will have diminished the value of the trailer for resale based on it is not legal. You will also leave yourself wide open to all sorts of libality if you were ever involved in an auto accident while towing this trailer. Imagine yourself in court trying to justify that you ran into the rear end of someone and the fact that your trailer only had working brakes on one axle had no bearing on your ability to stop. Can you see the party the opposing lawyer would have knowing you intentionaly violated the state law and ran into his client ?? Don't know about you but I see lots and lots of dollar signs ! ! !

Respectifully suggest you reconsider !
 
Sep 5, 2007
689
MacGregor 26X Rochester
When professionally designed dual axle trailers have only a brake on a single axle, is it usually the front axle? This was the configuration of the OP's trailer but a couple of the aftermarket modified trailers have the single brake on the rear axle.
Including mine. I don't know why the manufacturers do that, but the physics don't seem to bear it out, unless it really doesn't matter in practice, and it's marginally cheaper to put them on the front axle.

Is seems to me that with independent suspension on the trailers axles, when you go from one axle to two axles, each tire in the dual axle trailer would have 1/2 the weight of each tire in the single axle config. Since both traction and the ability of a tire to stop are proportional to weight on the tire, only having brakes on one axle of dual axle trailer would "in theory" only have 1/2 the braking capability of a single axle trailer with brakes. This is probably at least part of the reason a lot of states require brakes on both axles.
That's what I've always assumed. I don't know what the magnitude of the brake torque is as a function of coupler deceleration (surge) loading, but I doubt it makes much difference on dry roads. Probably more of an effect on wet roads. Just a gut feeling with nothing to back it up.

Also, it seems that if you have any tongue weight, there is going to be a higher weight on the front axle than on the rear axle. The higher the tongue weight, the larger the imbalance ie, the higher the tongue weight, the higher the weight on the front axle compared to the rear. So you would want the brakes on the front axle – like the OP’s professionally designed trailer. Also, the braking action likely transfers weight to the front axle - same as for a car - and another reason you would want the brakes on the front axle if you only had the brakes on one axle..
More load on the front axle can normally only happen with independent suspension, and then only if you put the ball at a lower height than the design height of the coupler with the trailer experiencing equal wheel loading. In fact, you can do the opposite by having the hitch ball too high.

Stopping doesn't transfer any weight to the front axle if the trailer isn't allowed to tilt forward while decelerating, and with the rear of the tow vehicle trying to tilt upward (the car can tilt, however), it's unlikely the trailer attitude will change much if at all even with the tendency of the trailer to rotate forward against the hitch, and therefor there will be essentially no weight transfer to the front axle. Small changes in hitch height, during braking or otherwise, wouldn't have much effect on axle loading, though, as independent (torsion, usually) suspensions are relatively soft for their load rating compared to leaf springs, and with the axles close together but far from the hitch ball, any change in deflection will be small.

In fact, with the trailing arms of a typical torsion suspension, the arms will tend to rotate upward with brake torque, so with brakes on only one axle (either axle), the wheels with brakes will tend to unload a bit as the other axle takes a little more load. Brakes on both axles would cause both to rotate upward a bit, so they'd both maintain essentially the same load. I suspect that's the reason for many (most?) states requiring brakes on all axles.*

Equalized axle suspensions, of course, experience essentially the same static wheel loading no matter what the trailer frame attitude, barring weight transfer due to brake torque at the axle. Below is a pic of my trailer when I first pulled the burned up brakes off when I first got the boat. You can see (coincidentally) how the rear axle would take more load as it rotates forward, and the front takes less, especially if it too has brakes. Front is to the left.

*Edit: You can see this effect with tractor-trailers with pneumatic suspensions with trailing links, where they release their brakes at a light (or just stop) and the tractor or trailer 'stands up' taller. Since all axles have brakes (federal law governs here), the whole rig moves up and down as they all work together, but if only one axle of two or three had brakes, it would unload a bit and the other(s) would take the difference.
 

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Sumner

.
Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
.. I don't know why the manufacturers do that, but the physics don't seem to bear it out, unless it really doesn't matter in practice, and it's marginally cheaper to put them on the front axle. ..
I know that some guys who have retrofitted brakes to their trailers have gone to the front axle as the brake lines that came with the kits wouldn't reach the rear axles.

The kit I got came with all....



...flexible lines and I was able to make them reach the rear axle. So far one year into having the lines and brakes everything is fine. Down the road I'm not sure if I'll replace the flexible lines with rigid. I was surprised that the flexible lines can handle the pressure over the distances require, but they seem to work fine. At least they are one less thing to corrode, but maybe subject to rot like tires. Guess nothing lasts forever :cry:,

I have a suspicion that in a real world test with the same trailer that moving the brakes from one axle to the other wouldn't amount to much difference in stopping distance. One thing I do know that the difference between stopping distance between having any type of working brakes on the trailer and none at all is probably very measurable :),

Sum

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Jan 22, 2012
4
macgregor 25D Mobile AL
In my humble opinion surge brakes are the winner here. If you consider the common problems with trailer lights, there you go. I have a single axle trailer with surge brakes and they work great pulling my Mac 25.
 
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