Reseal keel on Seidelmann 25

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Mar 8, 2010
14
Seidelmann 25 Daytona Beach
Ahoi everyone:
I have my Seidelmann 25 on a trailer at home. I'm basically refitting the whole boat. The other day I noticed some streaks of water seeping from the area where the keel is attached to the hull. We had some rain, and there was water in the bilge. I think I need to reseal the keel to the hull.
Has anyone done that before? My main concern is how to stabilize the keel on the trailer. If I remove the nuts from the keel bolts, and lift the boat off the keel, I'm afraid that I can't control the 2200 pounds of lead....
Any ideas are highly appreciated!!!!

Ernst
 
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Jun 9, 2004
963
Hunter 40.5 Bayfield, WI
Re: Resealing keel on Seidelmann 25

You may be a pretty handy guy but frankly I would steer clear of a job like that. Have you had it inspected by a professional? I might consider taking the boat to someone who could help with the diagnosis. Perhaps you may be able to recaulk the joint without removing the keel but I would guess you would want to make sure the joint was dry before doing so if there was indeed water intrusion. There is a guy who posts on here by the name of Barnacle Bill. You might try reaching out to him. I know he has had a lot of experience with Seidelmanns.

Good luck!
 
Jun 9, 2008
1,771
- -- -Bayfield
Re: Resealing keel on Seidelmann 25

I would first just try to tighten your keel bolts to see if that doesn't fix the seeping. If you feel you need to remove the keel, the best way is to take the boat to a yard where they can lift the boat off of the keel. You can build out of wood or steel, a cradle for the keel to support it in the upright position after the boat is removed. This will also help you retrofit the hull over the keel bolts after you have cleaned up the joint and applied 3M 5200 as your caulk.
 
Mar 8, 2010
14
Seidelmann 25 Daytona Beach
Re: Resealing keel on Seidelmann 25

Than you Princess and Bill!!
I was thinking about lifting the boat on the trailer, since it has adjustable posts. The cradle for the keel is the problem, but I think it can be done. Once the joint is cleaned, and caulked, I should be able to lower the boat back on the keel. I'm sure it needs to be resealed. The seeping comes from water in the bilge, which was not much (about 1"). I'm afraid when the boat is back in the water, and there is water preassure against the joint, I'll be taking on water quickly.
Thanx again for your input!!!

:) Ernst
 
Sep 18, 2009
70
Tartan 37 Classic 24 St Michaels
Seidelmann Keels

Than you Princess and Bill!!
I was thinking about lifting the boat on the trailer, since it has adjustable posts. The cradle for the keel is the problem, but I think it can be done. Once the joint is cleaned, and caulked, I should be able to lower the boat back on the keel. I'm sure it needs to be resealed. The seeping comes from water in the bilge, which was not much (about 1"). I'm afraid when the boat is back in the water, and there is water preassure against the joint, I'll be taking on water quickly.
Thanx again for your input!!!

:) Ernst
Seidelmann keels with the exception of the 34 and 24 were mounted in a recess in the hull not on a protrusion like a Hunter. After the first year of production the top of the keel was buttered with epoxy from Philadelphia Resins or gray Marine Tex, rings of 5200 surrounded each bolt. From experience with Hunters I can tell you it is almost always very difficult to remove a keel installed in this manner. On a boat that has a protruding stub you can access the joint with a saws-all and cut thru the epoxy in the joint to free the keel. Thirty years later hard to say, I would remove the nuts wrap the bolts with butyl tape re-install the nuts to the proper torque and if the bolts don't break from 30 years of crevice corrosion, just enjoy the boat.

Early 25s the parallelogram shaped keel, were mounted with polyester putty we called mish mash they were a little easier to remove.

I would not drop one of these keels with out a properly fitted steel keel cradle unless I intended to scrap it.
 
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Mar 8, 2010
14
Seidelmann 25 Daytona Beach
Hi Surveyor:

We just dropped the keel. The bolts were long enough to have an almost 2 inch gap between keel and boat. My boat is a 1980, and it seems to be the polyester putty. One of the bolts broke off. The one in the front. It was badly corroded. My question is if these bolts were in the keel when it was poored, or if these bolts are lag bolts. We need to remove the one that broke, and replace it. If we can't remove it, we will have to drill a new lag bolt.
Thank you so much for your input!!!
Merry Christmas.
 
Mar 8, 2010
14
Seidelmann 25 Daytona Beach
Update to my own reply.
We used a pipe wrensh, just to see if we could unscrew the bolt from the keel. It worked!! We were able to unscrew the bolt using a pipe wrensh in the gap between boat and keel. It took a while, since there is about 5" of bolt inside the keel. It turned up inside the cabin floor.
Checking the other bolts, we found the rear bolt close to failing as well. We removed it the same way. BTW - the first bolt that failed was the front bolt.
The bolt in the rear was much longer. It is 14" all in all, and about 11" is in the keel.
It seems that the other four bolts are in good shape. They are arranged side by side in the middle section of the keel. Corresponding, they are located underneath the cross bar on which the compression post rests, and the other pair is in the area were the bilge pump is located.
I will post pictures later!!
:)
 
Sep 18, 2009
70
Tartan 37 Classic 24 St Michaels
Re: Resealing keel on Seidelmann 25

Seidelmann keel bolts were double nutted before the lead was poured if the keel was made by Lycoming. So that the bolts could be changed (not that we ever thoughts these boats would still be around 30 years later) There are no lags. We did add extra keel bolts in early 37's by cutting a notch or pocket for a nut and then drilling down thru the keel to the pocket with carbide spur bits.

I would love to see photos of the corroded keel bolts!!!
 

Blitz

.
Jul 10, 2007
672
Seidelmann 34 Atlantic Highlands, NJ
This is great to know! Surveyor, you again are a wealth of information - even of only going by memory. Thanks.
 
Jun 9, 2008
1,771
- -- -Bayfield
Re: Resealing keel on Seidelmann 25

In 1980 they by then had made a change to the S-25 keel design. More like a Peterson designed keel. The first ones were swept back and I know there was some sludge in some of the keel lead (imperfections that were not skimmed off before being poured). It made for some nasty maintenance early on. Later the keels were improved a lot.
 
Mar 8, 2010
14
Seidelmann 25 Daytona Beach
getting keel resealed

Hi guys:

YES - Surveyor is a tomb of knowledge!!! Thank you so much! Actually, we spoke on the phone about a year and a half ago. That's when we found out that you were the one who put the engine in my boat.
So - we were able to get SS thereaded rod to replace what was in there. The only question now is how to go about resealing. Should we remove all the putty from the seam, or just what seems to be loose? We decided to use epoxy (RAKA) with chopped strand to make the putty. We will use the same mixture as the fairing compond.
Sorry about the pictures. I promise to get them to you this weekend.
 
Mar 8, 2010
14
Seidelmann 25 Daytona Beach
Hi everyone:

I finally have some pics to share with you. Please pay close attention to the size comparison tool!!!
I think the electrolosys happened because the SS bolts, and the SS washers are different grade of stainless.
BTW - if anyone has some knowledge about the best way to reattach the keel, it would be appreciated.
Our game plan is to put the epoxy paste in the gap on the boat and the keel. Pull up the keel with the bolts until we have a nice beed on all sides. Let it harden, and then torque the bolts. What is the right foot pounds for torquing the bolts?????

Thanks a bunch,
:D Ernst
 

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Sep 18, 2009
70
Tartan 37 Classic 24 St Michaels
Re: Resealing keel on Seidelmann 25

Ernst

It looks like the polyester "mish mash" has cracked quite a bit, it also looks like you may have a new style keel with an old style keel recess. The old recess was smaller in all dimensions than the top of the new keel, it appears "mish mash" was used to fill in the difference. I would recommend at the very least to remove loose or cracked polyester filler down to the laminate.

I love the photos. I just wish you had used a tape measure rather than the sophisticated device you chose.
 
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Mar 8, 2010
14
Seidelmann 25 Daytona Beach
Re: Resealing keel on Seidelmann 25

Hi Surveyor:

We have removed all the "mish mash" and are down to the laminate. We have cleaned the top of the keel, and are going to pull up the keel next Saturday. I'm still confused about the best way to pull up the keel. What we have planned is:

Fill the gap with epoxy "mish mash", and use the keel bolts to pull up the keel. Once we have it pulled up, and there is a nice beed of "mish mash" all around the keel, we thought about stopping, and letting the epoxy harden. After that we will torque the bolts. The question is, how do we know that the keel us up high enough. It seemed when we cleaned the old "mish mash", it was thicker in the front than it was in the middle, and in the back of the keel.
Oh - one more question - would it make sense to fabricate aluminum backing plates for the bilge to distribute the weight of the keel better. The laminate is not very thick, and the washers seem not adequate. It would be just a few hours work....
Like always - thank you so much for your time and input! I appreciate it very much!
:) Ernst
 
Sep 18, 2009
70
Tartan 37 Classic 24 St Michaels
Re: Resealing keel on Seidelmann 25

Ernst

I'd rather see stainless backing plates bridging two bolts, the corrosion you showed in the photo is crevice corrosion, it occurs due to lack of oxygen, the washers should be thicker than those shown in the photo. Your plan for raising the keel is pretty much how it was done at the factory. Sighting the keel along the stem to be sure its not cocked to one side as the bolts are tightened. We at Seidelmann wrapped the bolts with butyl tape if memory serves, Hunter puts a large bead of 5200 around each bolt and butters the rest of the top of the keel with a mixture of West Epoxy/microfiber/cabosil.
There are standard torque specifications for given size course thread bolts and I would let the epoxy cure before final tightening.
 
Mar 8, 2010
14
Seidelmann 25 Daytona Beach
Hi Surveyor:

Again, thank you for your reply! We just got done pulling up the keel. We used Epoxy (RAKA system from here in florida) with fiber strands and milled glass. Nice paste that we applied at about 1/2 inch thickness. Then we pulled up the keel with the bolts, squeesing out quite a bit of the "mish mash". We used the exess to start fairing in the keel. The keel was sighted in and is completely straight. I will take pictures this week, and post them here.

Thanks again!!!

:) Ernst
 
Mar 8, 2010
14
Seidelmann 25 Daytona Beach
Re: Resealing keel on Seidelmann 25

Hi everyone:

Betterlate than never. Here are some pictures of the keel back up. They show the seem on both sides of the keel. The brown paperback in front was used to pack "mish mash" in the fromt cavity where the depth sounder was. It was not working so we removed it. The two pictures of the inside show the backing plates we installed.
Next order of business is to grind everything down, about two inches above, and four inches below the seem. Then fairing in the seem, and applying a few layers of glass.
If there is any interest, I'll kepp you updated, and post pictures. Let me know...

:) Ernst




 
Mar 8, 2010
14
Seidelmann 25 Daytona Beach
Hi all:

We did some work this weekend. Not too much, since we went sailing on Sunday.
After pulling up the keel, and making sure it is straight, the "mish mash" hardened. It took a bit since we used a tropical hardener to gain some time due to the amount we mixed up. We had a couple of cold nights, so it took a while. Saturday morning I ground off the bottom paint from the boat above the keel, and on the keel. Next thing was to fair in the keel with another batch of epoxy paste. This time without glass strands. Using a cap of a salsa glass, we layed in a nice smooth beed. Next step is to do some sanding, and lay 3 layers of glass. We cut 6", 4" and 2" strips of glass to connect the boat to the keel. That should be it, except for primer, and bottom paint. Here are some pics...
:) Ernst
 

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Jun 20, 2007
9
- - Pawcatuck, Ct.
Does this comment apply to S37's

Seidelmann keels with the exception of the 34 and 24 were mounted in a recess in the hull not on a protrusion like a Hunter. After the first year of production the top of the keel was buttered with epoxy from Philadelphia Resins or gray Marine Tex, rings of 5200 surrounded each bolt. From experience with Hunters I can tell you it is almost always very difficult to remove a keel installed in this manner. On a boat that has a protruding stub you can access the joint with a saws-all and cut thru the epoxy in the joint to free the keel. Thirty years later hard to say, I would remove the nuts wrap the bolts with butyl tape re-install the nuts to the proper torque and if the bolts don't break from 30 years of crevice corrosion, just enjoy the boat.

Early 25s the parallelogram shaped keel, were mounted with polyester putty we called mish mash they were a little easier to remove.

I would not drop one of these keels with out a properly fitted steel keel cradle unless I intended to scrap it.
I'm about to drop my keel as a result of a grounding to assess damage as I've already noticed one fracture across the top frontal area of this platform and have some leakage. Is the S37 Keel also fitted within a recess as described above and how easy/difficult will it be to drop keel (I feel it must be done). Any Info on removal and re-fitting of my keel would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
 
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