Repurpose traveller track

[cb32863]

I have a 1977 O'Day 25 CB. AS you may know the traveller system on these boats is well, less than optimal. Screw pins and you manually slide the car over and tighten the pins.

So instead of buying an all new traveller, such as a Garhauer MT-3, I am wondering if anyone as just purchased new cars and ends and if so, what did they buy and how much was the PITA factor?

 

[Richard19068]

I have a 1977 O'Day 25 CB. AS you may know the traveller system on these boats is well, less than optimal. Screw pins and you manually slide the car over and tighten the pins.

So instead of buying an all new traveller, such as a Garhauer MT-3, I am wondering if anyone as just purchased new cars and ends and if so, what did they buy and how much was the PITA factor?

I don't know how the traveler on my 1985 31 compares to the 1977 25 but I was able to add these blocks to my existing traveler car. Got them and the ends from Garhauer

 

[RichBone]

I replaced mine with a Harken traveler. I needed to replace the track.

 

[IllinoisJim]

I found this on ebay, used the original track. What ever you do, keep in mind not to interfere with the lid for the starboard lazarette.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-...9C2I6t2U/w1361-h766-no/Oday+25+Travelller.jpg

 

[Sprega]

I just move the traveler from mid cockpit to the cabin top on my O 27. If you we're in my area. I would sell you my old traveler for cheap. I bought a really nice complete Harken traveler system use for $220 total at a marine exchange store in Poulsbo. You might check around for a used traveler. I saved around $1000 bucks.

 

[daleyellin]

Sprega -- I like the nice clean cabin top installation of your traveler. I have a Shaefer traveler that I want to install on my 222, preferably on the cabin top. Could you share some measurements on your installation? Specifically, the distance from the mast to the traveler, the height of the support towers, and the total length of your boom. If you have any other pictures you could post, that would be great.

Thanks,

Dale

 

[Brian S]

Daleyellin, I have a 192, and I've seen 222s. I definitely don't think there's enough cabin length to do mid-boom sheeting on my 192. I don't think I'd want the mid-boom sheeting any closer to the mast than 1/2 the boom length. Yeah, looking at the profile of the 222 at: http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=3137 it definitely looks like the ideal place for a traveller is right at the companionway, or spanning the seats over the bridge deck. Because the seats are contoured, and the flat bridge deck is too narrow, you'll have to build a bridge over the seats as Joe (Trinkka) has done. He's got pics in his profile photo album, if I recall. You can't put the traveller at the aft edge on top of the house, because then you'd have a hard time getting in and out of the cabin. And if you put the traveller on a bridge over the hatch just at the aft edge of the hatch when it's slid fully forward, then you're right along the boom about where the vang bail is attached - too far forward on the boom.

I also think that you want the traveller and boom attachment point to be the same distance from the mast. My friend has a traveller on his Beneteau right at the bridge deck, but the boom attachment point is aft of the traveller. I don't care for it, it seems to be more difficult pulling the traveller to windward to get the boom on the centerline...

This season, I've been unlearning all the bendy mast, powerful vang, racing dinghy sail trim that I previously learned, and I've been trying to pay more attention to mainsail twist. Because I still have stock end boom sheeting and no traveller, I've been playing around with vang sheeting, and in lighter winds, using my topping lift to pull the boom up and induce twist. Actually, it's all about understanding the concepts in Don Guillette's sail trim book with regards to a traveller, and trying to translate that to vang and topping lift adjustments. I think I'm getting some decent sail shape now. I've noticed on windier days, that I can keep all three leech telltales flying, and the boat isn't heeling as much. Now for the jib, I'm torn between a short length of track on the cabin top, so I can tweak the 110% jib, or just deal with fixed position fairleads until I decide to pony up for a 135% genoa on a Schaeffer Snap-furl system, and put longer tracks on the side decks... Oh, the trouble of potting all those track fasteners along side decks...

Brian

 

[Brian S]

222 Traveller position considerations.

I've made some annotations to the sailboatdata.com line drawing of the 222. The blue line is an approximation of the vang. The red arrow shows a cabin top traveller point, which to me looks too close to the mast along the boom. And the green arrow shows how a traveller across the bridge deck is pretty ideal looking. Of course, the problem with such a traveller is that now you give up cockpit seating amenities. You'd no longer be able to sit with your back leaning against the house and your feet down the seat. And you couldn't lay on the seats full length. And, of course, a ding against bridge deck travellers is that there's another obstacle to getting in and out of the cabin while under sail, unless you raise the traveller or drop it down past the edge of the companionway. I have heard folks who have a bridge deck traveller say that it isn't as big a problem as you think it is....

So, part of the purpose of a traveller is being able to control leech tension, and thusly sail twist, while at the same time being able to adjust angle of attach while still maintaining (mostly) the same leech tension/twist. (I say mostly, because you'd need a curved traveller track to match the arc of the boom to exactly maintain leech tension, but I digress...) If you had the boom attachment point out of line with the traveller, say, aft of the traveller position, now you've got the main sheet pulling the boom down at an angle. This would make it less efficient at doing that, and introduce a vector of force pushing the boom forward. Ahhh, but for small deviations of position, and smaller angles from 90º, this forward vector is probably negligible and ignorable...

Brian

 

[daleyellin]

Re: 222 Traveller position considerations.

Brian -- Thanks for the additional analysis. I appreciate your help. However, I'm still really hoping to find an alternative to mounting the traveler in the cockpit -- for the reasons you mentioned.

I'd like to toss another idea at you for thought. But first, I took your drawing and went on the boat and made some measurements to the points you identified. The measurements are from the aft edge of the mast and relate to distances along the boom to the positions you identified, and a couple of additional points.

Mast to boom vang attach point = 18"
Mast to aft end of open cabin hatch cover = 38"
Mast to top edge of cabin bulkhead = 70"
Mast to aft edge of cockpit step (mounting position of Joe's traveler) = 88"

The total length of the boom is 128" and the foot of the sail is 114" (this was a "quick" measurement does not match SailData)

Ok, here's a question, and then my idea. What do you think is the minimum distance from the mast to traveler - 1/3 or 1/2 the length of the boom? Or, can placement be measured by the foot of the sail?

Here's my idea. I don't have a problem with the traveler partially blocking the cabin top while sailing, however having to duck under the traveler when not sailing won't work. My thought is, since I have to build "towers" for the traveler to clear the sliding hatch cover, why not mount the towers on tracks that will allow sliding the traveler forward when I want clear access to the cabin. The traveler I have is slightly arched and only attaches with a single through at each end. I think that a track, of the same width as the traveler's track should be structurally sound.

What are your thoughts.

Thanks, again,

Dale

 

[Apex]

Our 28 has a bridgedeck mounted traveler. I really like it. At the dock, move it all the way to one side, and the traveler AND boom are tucked away. I need to change the termination blocks to the cockpit coamings instead of the traveler itself. That makes line-handling in the same location instead of moving ith the mainsail each time. Otherwise it is not in the way. Tucked close to the bulkhead, it really isn't a trip hazard or in the way like I thought it might.

 

[daleyellin]

Apex -- Thanks for the info. How close to the bulkhead is the traveler rail? Can you sit with your back against the bulkhead relatively comfortably?

Thanks, again.

Dale

 

[Apex]

it is about 1.5" away, leaving enough room for the traveler car. The cockpit cushions stop just short, and yes we can lean against the bulkheads. Mock up something and try for your cockpit layot. we use a pillow against the bulkhead

 

[Brian S]

Here's more considerations. Having a traveller on the cabin top means you can't easily adjust it. Some guys on another forum I know, and a friend of mine with a Beneteau First 235, have travellers on the bridge deck (and molded into the seats.) They love it, say it doesn't get in the way, and they can adjust it themselves without having to let go of the tiller. If you had a traveller on the cabin top, then you have to figure out how you're going to adjust it. It would be far more difficult to play the traveller for puffs, and if you did try to lead the control lines aft, then you've got problems with more friction through your routing.

I haven't got any more info on where one would mount the mainsheet on a mid-boom conversion, but some advice has been to study pics from a Google search on "mid-boom conversion."

Some booms may be too weak to support a single attachment point for mid-boom sheeting, and spreading the load out to 2 singles with each a separate bail can be helpful.

Brian

 

[daleyellin]

Thanks. I'll set the traveler in the cockpit and see how it feels.

Take care,

Dale

 

[Brian S]

The Solution!

Wait, wait! I have the solution!

What you want to do is to put a traveller bridge over the tiller back on the coaming, thus keeping your end boom sheeting, keeping your cockpit space, yet still getting better mainsail twist control.

Here's a video that shows just such a setup. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=c3h7W3tmkDA This is Judy Blumhorst's new West Wight Potter 19 "Sport." This is a custom boat she designed with Jim Antrim based on a WW Potter 19. International Marine was real cool and worked with her on this. This is Judy from www.judybsails.com if you need new sails, by the way...

I had completely forgotten about this. This is totally the way you want to go if you want a traveller on a 192 or 222. (No offense to Trinkka Joe...) All the benefits, without the tradeoffs... Still, would be a custom fab for the bridge to clear the tiller. Probably would have to rebuild the tiller such that it pivots up forward of the bridge, rather than at the headstock. And I don't know how you'd get good backing blocks back under the coaming, other than a reasonably large observation port in the back of the cockpit.

Oh, and make sure you fab the bridge such that the traveller car clears the backstay. Heck, while you're at it, you might as well convert the backstay to adjustable....

Brian

 

[daleyellin]

Re: The Solution!

Brian -- Just when I was pretty much relegated to using the bridgedeck mounting, you come up with what was my original idea, but I was concerned about the tiller. I hadn't thought about modifying the rudder head to move the tiller pivot point forward.

I don't think I'll have much trouble with access when mounting the towers. I have a 10-12" access port installed on the inside of the transom that allows access to the starboard side of the transom, and the port lazerette give good access to the port side of the transom.

And, you can be assured that whichever location the traveler ends up, I'll go for an adjustable backstay.

Thanks, again, for the brain storming.

Dale

 

[Jackdaw]

What a totally excellent thread hijack! ;^)

 

[Brian S]

Ooops. Yeah, I guess we did hijack this thread. But our hijack was still related to travelers!

Brian

 

[Brian S]

Another traveler option:

Here's yet another option, from a Montgomery 17. Ya could put the traveller on the floor. I'm guessing the floor on this M17 is no wider than on our O'day 192/222s... That way, you could keep your seating, but still keep the boom attachment point midway on the boom. Had a recommendation to not go less than 1/2 of boom length. With the traveller 1/2 way on the boom, you get more angle of attack adjustment for less traveller movement than you do on the back of the coaming...

Then again, if you put it on the floor, you might as well put it on the bridge deck, because the bridge deck and the floor are the same width. I wonder if the traveler on the floor of this M17 really makes all that much difference, as it's not that wide.

Never mind.

Brian