Replacing Transmission

[c130king]

Hello Again,

On Tuesday, following 4 hours of really good sailing, the transmission gave out. Started up the motor...everything sounded fine...but then engaged the transmission and got bad grinding/clicking/rubbing sounds.

Sailed the boat back into my marina, up the fairway, and turned into my slip...all under sail...pretty darn proud of myself.

Anyways, yesterday I had a more mechanically knowledgeable friend come over and we checked things out. Engine is fine. But we could engage the transmission and then hold the prop shaft. Can hear the transmission turning but the prop we can hold still. Just grinding/rubbing.

The transmission cable leading to the swing arm on the side of the transmission seems fine.

Our plan is to remove the old transmission tomorrow and install a new one. Old one is Hurth HBW 50. Can't find them on-line anywhere. Appears they are replaced by ZF-6M.

Anyone ever replaced their transmission? Any thoughts or words of wisdom? What about installing ZF-6M?

Engine is Universal/Westerbeke M-25.

Appreciate any thoughts.

Thanks again. This is a great forum.

Cheers,
Jim

 

[JK_Boston_Catalina310]

I believe Witzend on the 310 forum had to take out his transmission to replace his damper plate. Hopefully he replies and can give you some wisdom.

All I know is that I wouldn't want to try to remove the transmission and bell housing without the bulkhead modification I made.

Good luck,

Jesse

 

[Witzend]

I believe Witzend on the 310 forum had to take out his transmission to replace his damper plate. Hopefully he replies and can give you some wisdom.

All I know is that I wouldn't want to try to remove the transmission and bell housing without the bulkhead modification I made.

Good luck,

Jesse

The Bulkhead mod was not an issue for me. I had to remove the bulkhead anyway in order to break the bell housing. To pull the tranny you will need to disconnect the coupling and pull the shaft as far aft as you can, and even then depending on how long your log is, you may not have enough clearance to pull the tranny all the back to disengage.
While it is out I would look at the damper and see what condition the spline collar is in and see if the springs are loose if it is a Sachs, if it is a R&D, get it out of there. It is too stiff for the M25.
RPWillia was able to pull his damper without cracking the bell.
My tranny was not damaged so I did not need to find any parts or replacement, so no help there.
How many hours do you have on you engine?
What do the fluid look like?
I would make sure the shift lever is truly engaged all the way by manually actuating it at the transmission.

 

[c130king]

Called a dealer today and was told that they recommend using the ZF-10 rather than the ZF-6. I was hoping somebody here had some knowledge or experience with ZF transmissions.

He says they are the same size but ZF-10 has more plates. But looking at spec sheets it seems as if it is for higher horsepower engines.

And was told that both the ZF-6 and ZF-10 are 1" bigger than original Hurth HBW 50. Assume I have to push the prop shaft out by 1". Any feedback on that?

Thanks,
Jim

 

[Witzend]

If it is longer by 1" you may have to have to pull the coupling off the shaft and push the shaft as far into the packing gland as you dare. Getting the coupling off is going to be a bear. They make a tool for it, but that would not even get mine off. I had to use a torch.
Your best bet would be to remove the bulkhead and pull the engine up to bypass the interference with the shaft. That is what I did and did not really have to disconnect any hoses or wires going to the engine, just popped it off the mounts with a come-along up to a board across the companion way.

 

[c130king]

Witzend,

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately you are speaking at a level of understanding and technical-eze that is well above me.

We did check the cable from the shifter to the transmission. It seems to be working fine. The lever arm on the starboard side of the transmission moves aft for forward and swings forward for reverse. Are you suggesting we see if we can move it further?

The transmission fluid seemed to be fine. Red and normal levels.

How did you remove that bulkhead? Is that difficult.

And can I do all of this with the boat in the water? That is the plan as of now.

My friend and I are going to try and remove the Hurth tomorrow...hoping the rain holds off. He is the son of the original owner and they have sort of done this before when they did some sort of clutch repair or something a few years ago.

I guess I will print this whole thread and bring it for him to read...maybe it will help him.

Appreciate the help. If you have any other thoughts please feel free to fire them my way.

Cheers,
Jim

 

[Witzend]

Hmmm... "prior clutch repair", that may be telling. The cone clutches are in the tranny.
That would probably mean you have the room to get it out, and will have a chance to measure how much clearance you really have if you need to install a larger replacement one. Make sure the alignment pins are compatible for the replacement, they fit into the bell housing. Another thing to investigate is the gear ratio of the replacement, it will need to be the same as your original, if not you will either be over or under propped.
When installing a new tranny, take note of the position of the shifter arm, it is easy to get mixed up, and then putting it in forward will then put it in reverse.
Yes make sure the shifter arm at the tranny is fully engaging, but pushing all the way by hand.
As far as removing bulkhead, there are some screws in a strip at the top with some sealant that you need to remove, but it's not that hard.

 

[c130king]

Ok. Today we made a lot of progress on trouble-shooting my transmission issue.

We were able to remove the firewall/bulkhead behind the motor. Not terribly difficult.

Disconnected the prop shaft/transmission coupling so the prop shaft is separated from the transmission.

Built a rig out of a 4x4 and used a come-along to raise the motor up several inches. It worked very well and very easily.

Had to disconnect several things but motor is lifted up and moved forward several inches allowing us to un-bolt and removed the transmission.

Once the transmission was out it seemed to work just fine in forward/reverse/neutral when turning the transmission by hand.

Got the bell housing about 75% removed. Still working on that. Will get it removed tomorrow and continue trouble-shooting.

Found several other issues to fix. Leaky stuffing box, loose/leaky exahaust hose (couple different places), some corrosion work to do, and we had a little spark show when the oil dipstick contacted the two leads coming in to the starter solenoid. So now I have to take out the batteries...again...and figure out why battery 1 (only 2 weeks old) no longer works...probably blew the big fuse down by the batteries.

Here are some pictures I took of the work today: Removing the firewall; Disconnecting the prop shaft; Transmission before removal; Transmission after removal; Bell housing with pressure plate.

Cheers,
Jim

 

[Witzend]

After seeing the pictures, you will want to change the motor mounts while you have every thing apart.

 

[truckman]

Ok. Today we made a lot of progress on trouble-shooting my transmission issue.

We were able to remove the firewall/bulkhead behind the motor. Not terribly difficult.

Disconnected the prop shaft/transmission coupling so the prop shaft is separated from the transmission.

Built a rig out of a 4x4 and used a come-along to raise the motor up several inches. It worked very well and very easily.

Had to disconnect several things but motor is lifted up and moved forward several inches allowing us to un-bolt and removed the transmission.

Once the transmission was out it seemed to work just fine in forward/reverse/neutral when turning the transmission by hand.

Got the bell housing about 75% removed. Still working on that. Will get it removed tomorrow and continue trouble-shooting.

Found several other issues to fix. Leaky stuffing box, loose/leaky exahaust hose (couple different places), some corrosion work to do, and we had a little spark show when the oil dipstick contacted the two leads coming in to the starter solenoid. So now I have to take out the batteries...again...and figure out why battery 1 (only 2 weeks old) no longer works...probably blew the big fuse down by the batteries.

Here are some pictures I took of the work today: Removing the firewall; Disconnecting the prop shaft; Transmission before removal; Transmission after removal; Bell housing with pressure plate.

Cheers,
Jim

Are the splines on your damper plate intact? From your picture it is difficult to tell for sure.

 

[c130king]

Witzend, yes the motor mounts are not looking too good.

Truckman, intact...yes. But working properly...no.

I seem to have the same issue that Witzend and some others have had. I have the R&D pressure plate assembly. It is cracked. And the splines/teeth/gears on the transmission shaft are badly worn as are the splines on the pressure plate assembly. They will rotate freely and not grip as they are supposed to.

Plan is to take the transmission and the R&D pressure plate assembly to the marine diesel shop in Biloxi, MS and see what they can do...if anything.

Very frustrating...will be down for maintenance for quite a while. And I use my boat every day.

Jim

 

[rpwillia]

My $0.02

Sorry, been sailing so I just saw this.

Jim, Witz and I have both been there done that. If you have not done it there is no need to remove the bell housing. You can simply reach in and undo the 4 bolts that hold the damper plate on. Very simple to replace. Good you disconnected the engine and pulled it up a few inches as the transmission with a new damper plate with good teeth will simply not allow you to get the transmission on at the right angle.

Witz is giving you good advice on the motor mounts. I replaced mine with these ones from AVProductsInc (http://avproductsinc.com/mobile-marine/fail-safe-medium-mounts.pdf) with the MM-Small-65. They were $35.00/each and also needed the M12 height adjuster is $12.00/each. Been very happy with them. One nice feature is the bolts (which are the height adjusters) allow you to swap out the mounts without removing the engine unlike the factory ones which are welded on. I did have to fabricate adapters as these were 4" on center for the bolt holes and the factory ones were 5" on center and I just did not want to really move the engine out of the way to drill and tap new bolt holes (even aside from my clear lack of skill drilling and tapping threads in aluminum ). I recall I posted the saga on this forum here. Pretty happy as they are much quieter. For the adapter plates I just got some 4"x1/4" steel from Tractor Supply and cut it on my table saw with a metal cutting blade and cut the holes to match the mounts. A little bit of grinding here and there and everything fits great. BTW, 4" seems to be the new normal for motor mount bolt.

For damper plates, I am going to be a bit contrarian and state the R&D's were an RCH nicer, but I could not find them and their long term reliability is a bit suspect. I did use a Sach's damper plate and I am pleased with that. I used a different one from Witz, but it did not require anything but to bolt it on.

Not sure who could check out your old transmission, but since you have very little to lose, you could crack it open and see if it is something obvious. I am a virgin in this area so I cannot offer any advice about rebuilding a transmission.

 

[c130king]

Update:

New ZF-10M and Sachs Pressure Plate Assembly arrived today. My friend and I (mostly him) got the PPA and Transmission back in place. Ran out of time to finish the job. Still have to put some more of the heat exchanger back together. Then put the bulkhead back in place and couple the prop shaft back to the transmission, transmission, throttle and fuel shut off cables and engine mounts...etc... But should have most of that wrapped up by noon I hope. The clean-up will take a couple of good hours...the boat is trashed with oil/grease/dirt.

Just glad the parts came in quickly and these new pieces...different than what I originally had...all fit together properly.

Knocking on wood and fingers crossed that we can finish this all up tomorrow.

Cheers,
Jim

 

[Witzend]

So what damper plate did you end up going with?

 

[c130king]

The Sachs one that Ray used. Can't remember the number off the top of my head. It had the springs in it versus the plastic plate. And the hole pattern fit the flywheel without modification.

There used to be a rattle...which I thought was the engine in idle/neutral but now I realize it was the transmission rattling. New one is very quiet and smooth.

Worked very well today on my 4 hour sail with lots of docking practice.

Cheers,
Jim

 

[DeniseO30]

Jim did you take photos of the reassembly work? Congrats on a job well done!

 

[Witzend]

Good work Jim!. We now have 2 experiments running you and RP, so time will tell if the stiffer plate ever causes a problem. I would limit your idling ,that is when the damper has to do it's thing.

Anyone with a 310 should heed the clanking sound while idling seriously!!!

 

[c130king]

Unfortunately I didn't really get many pictures of the reassembly. I will look to see if there is anything really useful. But I got a lot of pictures of the disassembly.

Yes, what I thought was the engine "rattling" in idle I am pretty sure was the transmission. Don't really hear it any more with the new transmission. And the shift into neutral is much quieter.

And just looking at the motor while idling it seems as if the motor idles much smoother around 1300 rpm. Idle is about 900 rpm for me.

After 2 busy days of sailing...about 3 hours of motor time everything seems to work very well. And I was able to fix a couple of other issues like leaky exhaust gasket and we found a couple of leaky (or soon to be leaky due to weak spots) hoses that we replaced.

Cheers,
Jim

 

[JK_Boston_Catalina310]

Is the rattle at idle on neutral or on gear?

 

[Witzend]

Loudest at idle with no load. Put her in gear and she quiets down somewhat, get her to 1500 in gear and you won't hear it. It is the interface between the splined input shaft of the transmission and the damper plate collar that is the source of the noise, not the transmission itself.