I would like to know the method of removing the holding tank in my 84 37 cutter. Seems its leaking and needs to be replaced. Can the seat in the shower be removed? to get to it. or do you have to go through the starboard v berth to get to it. Is there a direct replacement for the tank? Thanks for the info Steve
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Or leave it.
You could just leave it Steve. But cut it open so you can clean it out and use if for dry storage. Buy a hatch from Thrifty Mariner and cut a hole to fit in the front of the shower seat. Or if you like that shiny seat you can go in from the starboard v-berth locker. You will probably want a hole there anyway to run hoses to the new tank. Now where to put the new tank? When I bought Ladylove the old tank was gone and there was a 30 gal. bladder hanging on the inside/aft bulkhead of the center v-berth locker. That served well for three years. A simple hose replacement is probably all that was required but I had to go and replace it with a 22 gal. Ronco. No simple project as you can see from the Photo Forum. Another option can be seen on the Rainbow Chaser site(see Related Link). But we like that hanging locker and the hose runs are long. If I did not have long range cruising plans I would have made the starboard watertank smaller and put the holding tank just aft of the head. My other idea was to glass in a custom tank to fit the starboard v-berth locker. This would have made for short hoses and good capacity. But the overboard thru-hull is in there. It is capped but I might want to reinstall the Y-valve and overboard pump someday. Peggy won't like this but my recommendation would be new Sealand hoses and a 20 to 25 gal. bladder tank in the starboard locker. The bladder tank that I took out had no signs of wear and the odor was all in the hoses. Good luck, Ed s/v Ladylove h37skipper@aol.com
You could just leave it Steve. But cut it open so you can clean it out and use if for dry storage. Buy a hatch from Thrifty Mariner and cut a hole to fit in the front of the shower seat. Or if you like that shiny seat you can go in from the starboard v-berth locker. You will probably want a hole there anyway to run hoses to the new tank. Now where to put the new tank? When I bought Ladylove the old tank was gone and there was a 30 gal. bladder hanging on the inside/aft bulkhead of the center v-berth locker. That served well for three years. A simple hose replacement is probably all that was required but I had to go and replace it with a 22 gal. Ronco. No simple project as you can see from the Photo Forum. Another option can be seen on the Rainbow Chaser site(see Related Link). But we like that hanging locker and the hose runs are long. If I did not have long range cruising plans I would have made the starboard watertank smaller and put the holding tank just aft of the head. My other idea was to glass in a custom tank to fit the starboard v-berth locker. This would have made for short hoses and good capacity. But the overboard thru-hull is in there. It is capped but I might want to reinstall the Y-valve and overboard pump someday. Peggy won't like this but my recommendation would be new Sealand hoses and a 20 to 25 gal. bladder tank in the starboard locker. The bladder tank that I took out had no signs of wear and the odor was all in the hoses. Good luck, Ed s/v Ladylove h37skipper@aol.com
Bladder tanks...
No odor INSIDE the boat doesn't mean no odor out the vent, Ed. And it's almost impossible to prevent in a bladder tank. However, there are other reasons why a bladder tank isn't the best choice for waste holding...in the event of a clogged vent that pressurizes the tank, it's not at all uncommon for a bladder tank to blow out a fitting...leaving you with a nasty smelly mess to clean up in the bilge/hanging locker/other area. Bladders are ok for water...but not for waste. And I'm not the only one who thinks so...most good surveyors agree with me.
No odor INSIDE the boat doesn't mean no odor out the vent, Ed. And it's almost impossible to prevent in a bladder tank. However, there are other reasons why a bladder tank isn't the best choice for waste holding...in the event of a clogged vent that pressurizes the tank, it's not at all uncommon for a bladder tank to blow out a fitting...leaving you with a nasty smelly mess to clean up in the bilge/hanging locker/other area. Bladders are ok for water...but not for waste. And I'm not the only one who thinks so...most good surveyors agree with me.
Another Question
What would be wrong with building a wood/fiberglass holding tank to fit wherever? I've seen where people build their own water tanks....
What would be wrong with building a wood/fiberglass holding tank to fit wherever? I've seen where people build their own water tanks....
Tank
Ron, Theoretically I think that would be very possible. I spent some time in a former hobby building a fiberglass airplane. The fuel tanks were integral in the various wing spaces and it worked just fine for fuel. We used foam and fiberglass rather than plywood, but can't imagine that the core material would matter much. The main issue is going to be room to get the bottom, sides and eventually the top in place and still have room to work on the fiberglassing. Mounting the top is another issue that would have to be thought out. The top would likely go on last and you may not have the option of placing the joint laps inside the tank. There are ways to get around this (we used them when installing the top wing skin). I would suggest a pretty good size inspection access to allow at least your arm to get inside the tank afterwards. The tank should also be pressure tested prior to use (use very little pressure). Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Ron, Theoretically I think that would be very possible. I spent some time in a former hobby building a fiberglass airplane. The fuel tanks were integral in the various wing spaces and it worked just fine for fuel. We used foam and fiberglass rather than plywood, but can't imagine that the core material would matter much. The main issue is going to be room to get the bottom, sides and eventually the top in place and still have room to work on the fiberglassing. Mounting the top is another issue that would have to be thought out. The top would likely go on last and you may not have the option of placing the joint laps inside the tank. There are ways to get around this (we used them when installing the top wing skin). I would suggest a pretty good size inspection access to allow at least your arm to get inside the tank afterwards. The tank should also be pressure tested prior to use (use very little pressure). Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Dan
Thanks. I agree. I used to belong to EAA and saw what you are refering to in a lot of homebuilts. I was a coward who never built but had a Luscombe and a Tri-Pacer. I think I will plan on doing this for my holding tank. I'm going to school for a degree in airconditioning and refrigeration so this will be good practice for the super-duper refrigerator I'm going to build.... Ron/KA5HZV
Thanks. I agree. I used to belong to EAA and saw what you are refering to in a lot of homebuilts. I was a coward who never built but had a Luscombe and a Tri-Pacer. I think I will plan on doing this for my holding tank. I'm going to school for a degree in airconditioning and refrigeration so this will be good practice for the super-duper refrigerator I'm going to build.... Ron/KA5HZV
Tank top
Ron, Since you may give it a try, here is my advice regarding the project. I would use several, perhaps three layers of fiberglass on the bottom, sides, and top. You will want to put some additional strips at each edge intersection, perhaps three additional layers that overlap each surface by 2 inches. More if your sides are quite tall. You do not want the sides to be flexing with the water or waste load sloshing around. The top is more interesting. First cut two pieces of plywood for the top. Take one and put the required 3 layers of fiberglass on it. Set that aside. Take the other one and cut out the middle leaving about 1.5 inches of the edge all around. Then put plastic tape (like you would use for shipping) on the bottom of the top all around and then secure the top to the tank sufficient that it is stable. Now put at least 4-5 layers of fiberglass cloth around the inside top edge lapping from the sides of the tank onto the top over the tape. The fiberglass will stick to the tape just enough to support itself, but not so much that you can't get the temporary top back off. Once the layers have cured (you can trim them as they set right at the edge of the plywoood), you can remove the top and you will be left with a 1.5" wide fiberglass seam to set the permanent top onto. Keep in mind that curing usually takes 24 hours to get real hard. Don't go wiggling stuff around prior as it can cause a seam to seperate, and you may not see it. Mix up some resin and micro ballons and smear liberally onto the 1.5 inch lip and then set the permanent lid onto the top of the structure. I would use two beads all the way around. Weight it down and hope for the best. I would not try to screw it into the plywood side unless the plywood were pretty thick and you knew that the screws would not touch the nearby fiberglass work. The resin is enough to glue the lid down. After it cures you may also want to run a few fiberglass seams around the outside just to add to the stability. That would also fill in the small void that will likely occur where the top meets the sides on the outside (thickness of the resin and microballoons that did not squeeze down to nothing) You do want to cut your inspection plate and any other attachements prior to putting the top on. Anyplace you penetrate the tank I recommend that you use a dremel or other tool to remove some of the plywood material away from the hole but leaving the fiberglass. Fill the void with resin and micro balloons. This will act as a further barrier protecting the core material around an inspection plate access or pipe penetration. If you place a fitting into the penetration, make sure it extends through a little and then fiberglass a number of layers around it on both the inside and outside. I built the battery boxes in our 290 pretty much the same way, just did not need a top glassed on, we used screws. Made for a very secure and liquid proof space that holds two group 27 batteries quite well. A little difficult to relate this to a narrative, but hope this helps. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Ron, Since you may give it a try, here is my advice regarding the project. I would use several, perhaps three layers of fiberglass on the bottom, sides, and top. You will want to put some additional strips at each edge intersection, perhaps three additional layers that overlap each surface by 2 inches. More if your sides are quite tall. You do not want the sides to be flexing with the water or waste load sloshing around. The top is more interesting. First cut two pieces of plywood for the top. Take one and put the required 3 layers of fiberglass on it. Set that aside. Take the other one and cut out the middle leaving about 1.5 inches of the edge all around. Then put plastic tape (like you would use for shipping) on the bottom of the top all around and then secure the top to the tank sufficient that it is stable. Now put at least 4-5 layers of fiberglass cloth around the inside top edge lapping from the sides of the tank onto the top over the tape. The fiberglass will stick to the tape just enough to support itself, but not so much that you can't get the temporary top back off. Once the layers have cured (you can trim them as they set right at the edge of the plywoood), you can remove the top and you will be left with a 1.5" wide fiberglass seam to set the permanent top onto. Keep in mind that curing usually takes 24 hours to get real hard. Don't go wiggling stuff around prior as it can cause a seam to seperate, and you may not see it. Mix up some resin and micro ballons and smear liberally onto the 1.5 inch lip and then set the permanent lid onto the top of the structure. I would use two beads all the way around. Weight it down and hope for the best. I would not try to screw it into the plywood side unless the plywood were pretty thick and you knew that the screws would not touch the nearby fiberglass work. The resin is enough to glue the lid down. After it cures you may also want to run a few fiberglass seams around the outside just to add to the stability. That would also fill in the small void that will likely occur where the top meets the sides on the outside (thickness of the resin and microballoons that did not squeeze down to nothing) You do want to cut your inspection plate and any other attachements prior to putting the top on. Anyplace you penetrate the tank I recommend that you use a dremel or other tool to remove some of the plywood material away from the hole but leaving the fiberglass. Fill the void with resin and micro balloons. This will act as a further barrier protecting the core material around an inspection plate access or pipe penetration. If you place a fitting into the penetration, make sure it extends through a little and then fiberglass a number of layers around it on both the inside and outside. I built the battery boxes in our 290 pretty much the same way, just did not need a top glassed on, we used screws. Made for a very secure and liquid proof space that holds two group 27 batteries quite well. A little difficult to relate this to a narrative, but hope this helps. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
No need to build a tank...
Ronco Plastics has more that 400 shapes and sizes, over 100 of which are non-rectangular. They're EXCELLENT quality, thick-walled tanks for a very reasonable price..and you can spec your own fittings sizes and locations--including an inspection port--to be installed by the factory when the tank is made. Link to their catalog is below. They supplied at least 95% of the tanks we sold for about 10 years.
Ronco Plastics has more that 400 shapes and sizes, over 100 of which are non-rectangular. They're EXCELLENT quality, thick-walled tanks for a very reasonable price..and you can spec your own fittings sizes and locations--including an inspection port--to be installed by the factory when the tank is made. Link to their catalog is below. They supplied at least 95% of the tanks we sold for about 10 years.
WOW!!
After reading Dan's instructions, $170 doesn't sound too bad. But Thanks Dan. I put your info away for future use... Ron/KA5HZV
After reading Dan's instructions, $170 doesn't sound too bad. But Thanks Dan. I put your info away for future use... Ron/KA5HZV
"Build a tank".
We went through all of this when I was agonizing about what to do on my H37C. First, there is NO tank made by any company that will fit the starboard locker. Even if there were you would do structural weakening getting it in there. When I was seriously considering building my own several experts warned me against it. The main problem was "osmosis", they said I would not be able to seal the f/g. If it were not for the thru-hulls in the center v-berth locker you could put a 40 gal. Ronco in there. But my original log and depth transducers are in there and I have since added two more. The 22 gal. Ronco was the largest I could install and still have IMMEDIATE access to those four holes.
We went through all of this when I was agonizing about what to do on my H37C. First, there is NO tank made by any company that will fit the starboard locker. Even if there were you would do structural weakening getting it in there. When I was seriously considering building my own several experts warned me against it. The main problem was "osmosis", they said I would not be able to seal the f/g. If it were not for the thru-hulls in the center v-berth locker you could put a 40 gal. Ronco in there. But my original log and depth transducers are in there and I have since added two more. The 22 gal. Ronco was the largest I could install and still have IMMEDIATE access to those four holes.
Attachments
Interesting
Ed, Interesting comment. Seems like if it would work on airplane fuel tanks, it would work for water storage. I have not heard of any aircraft failures related to osmosis of the fuel. Is it possible that different resins would react differently? I'm not challenging the "experts", I just know how we did it on the aircraft fuel tanks. So now I'm curious. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Ed, Interesting comment. Seems like if it would work on airplane fuel tanks, it would work for water storage. I have not heard of any aircraft failures related to osmosis of the fuel. Is it possible that different resins would react differently? I'm not challenging the "experts", I just know how we did it on the aircraft fuel tanks. So now I'm curious. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Believe it or not...
Water and F/G don't mix. Water and polyester resin combined in a scenario with small pockets of un-polymerized catalyst will release styrenes which are the acids that cause osmotic blistering in boat hulls. Trying to build a tank in an uncontrolled environment with polyester resin in a cramped space will surely invite future problems. It works in fuel tanks because fuel is a petroleum and not as reactive to the resin due similar chemistry make-ups. If you do decide to build a holding tank, use epoxy, it does not share the same hydroscopic and problematic tendancies that are associated with polyester resins and water. But I agree with Peggy and would strongly look at Ed's installation for the 37C. I personally have a Lectra-San with no holding tank and I am very satisfied with the installation but it is not legal in zero discharge areas. I removed my leaky tank from under the shower seat by accessing the tank from the starboard V-berth locker and cutting it into two pieces to get it out. I removed all the plumbing from the hanging locker which remedied my odor problem, cut a access hole in the shower seat verticle wall and used a bomar hatch to have access to the area. I relocated my thru-hull under the shower seat and my Lectra-San in the starboard V-berth locker with double Y valves allowing it to by-pass and directly discharge overboard when legal. Everything is neat and on one side of the boat, the vented loop goes up behind the shower wall where the old tank vent was, 2 years no problems and we lived aboard for a good while as well. If I have to install a holding tank in the future, I'll add another Y-valve from the overboard discharge to a tank like Ed installed in the center V-berth locker and re-plumb my existing deck discharge to it. I also still have the original port thru hull in place and this would go back into service as an overboard discharge to the holding tank with a manual or electric macerator pump. Lot's of valves I know, but this takes care of every concievable sewage handling problem I can think of because sewage after all is "Rocket Science", what do ya think Peggy? Tom Hadoulias S/V Lite Chop
Water and F/G don't mix. Water and polyester resin combined in a scenario with small pockets of un-polymerized catalyst will release styrenes which are the acids that cause osmotic blistering in boat hulls. Trying to build a tank in an uncontrolled environment with polyester resin in a cramped space will surely invite future problems. It works in fuel tanks because fuel is a petroleum and not as reactive to the resin due similar chemistry make-ups. If you do decide to build a holding tank, use epoxy, it does not share the same hydroscopic and problematic tendancies that are associated with polyester resins and water. But I agree with Peggy and would strongly look at Ed's installation for the 37C. I personally have a Lectra-San with no holding tank and I am very satisfied with the installation but it is not legal in zero discharge areas. I removed my leaky tank from under the shower seat by accessing the tank from the starboard V-berth locker and cutting it into two pieces to get it out. I removed all the plumbing from the hanging locker which remedied my odor problem, cut a access hole in the shower seat verticle wall and used a bomar hatch to have access to the area. I relocated my thru-hull under the shower seat and my Lectra-San in the starboard V-berth locker with double Y valves allowing it to by-pass and directly discharge overboard when legal. Everything is neat and on one side of the boat, the vented loop goes up behind the shower wall where the old tank vent was, 2 years no problems and we lived aboard for a good while as well. If I have to install a holding tank in the future, I'll add another Y-valve from the overboard discharge to a tank like Ed installed in the center V-berth locker and re-plumb my existing deck discharge to it. I also still have the original port thru hull in place and this would go back into service as an overboard discharge to the holding tank with a manual or electric macerator pump. Lot's of valves I know, but this takes care of every concievable sewage handling problem I can think of because sewage after all is "Rocket Science", what do ya think Peggy? Tom Hadoulias S/V Lite Chop
Rocket science?
Hardly!
Just plain ol' organic chemistry (or maybe it's bio-chemisty) and logic. Your setup makes sense, but I don't know if you need to cover EVERY possible scenario...the more valves etc in the system, the more there is to maintain, trouble-shoot and cause problems.
Hardly!
Just plain ol' organic chemistry (or maybe it's bio-chemisty) and logic. Your setup makes sense, but I don't know if you need to cover EVERY possible scenario...the more valves etc in the system, the more there is to maintain, trouble-shoot and cause problems.I can't help it...
After working on space shuttle toilets and associated systems worth millions of dollars, it seems the simplification of organic de-vitrification of naturally occuring biologic human products... it's just like politics that cause over designing of the most naturaly occuring aspects of nature. If our government used good common sense instead of bureacratic nonsense regarding the discharge of human wastes from marine vessels I wouldn't have to have such a complicated system! Thanks Peggy for your knowledge and help in keeping us in perspective. Your information and advice is always "right on". Tom Hadoulias S/V Lite Chop
After working on space shuttle toilets and associated systems worth millions of dollars, it seems the simplification of organic de-vitrification of naturally occuring biologic human products... it's just like politics that cause over designing of the most naturaly occuring aspects of nature. If our government used good common sense instead of bureacratic nonsense regarding the discharge of human wastes from marine vessels I wouldn't have to have such a complicated system! Thanks Peggy for your knowledge and help in keeping us in perspective. Your information and advice is always "right on". Tom Hadoulias S/V Lite Chop
Ed - Thru-hulls?
I'm curious: Why didn't you just move the thruhulls so you could put the tank where you wanted it?
I'm curious: Why didn't you just move the thruhulls so you could put the tank where you wanted it?
Almost did that.
I was going to put the two new Nexus transducers in a new place but did not know where. That would still have left the two original working Signet transducers. I was not, and still am not, comfortable with the idea of filling two inch holes in the boat. I am fairly proficient with West System epoxy but that scares me. A lot of H37C toilet discussion is probably confusing even to H37C owners. There are significant differences in the years. My 1979, for example, had everything on the starboard side. Other years had the head and holding tank on starboard but I think the Y-valve, overboard thru-hull, and pump were on port. Was it in the port v-berth locker or was something in the hanging closet?
I was going to put the two new Nexus transducers in a new place but did not know where. That would still have left the two original working Signet transducers. I was not, and still am not, comfortable with the idea of filling two inch holes in the boat. I am fairly proficient with West System epoxy but that scares me. A lot of H37C toilet discussion is probably confusing even to H37C owners. There are significant differences in the years. My 1979, for example, had everything on the starboard side. Other years had the head and holding tank on starboard but I think the Y-valve, overboard thru-hull, and pump were on port. Was it in the port v-berth locker or was something in the hanging closet?
Replaced with small Ronco plastic tank
Steve, Just so you have every possible option here's what I did to replace my leaky aluminum tank last winter. I cut off the top of the shower seat and cut up the tank and removed it that way. (I removed much of it from the starboard V-berth locker but couldn't get to all of it from there.) I replaced it with a simple Ronco plastic tank (in the same place), about 10 gallons capacity, and made a new starboard cover for the shower seat. My thruhulls are in the V-berth starboard locker (my boat was built in 1980). I've had the boat for three years and, in hindsight, the old tank must have been leaking from the first day I bought it. One day last winter the output hose fitting from the old tank broke off. Replacing the tank has been like getting a new boat.
Steve, Just so you have every possible option
here's what I did to replace my leaky aluminum tank last winter. I cut off the top of the shower seat and cut up the tank and removed it that way. (I removed much of it from the starboard V-berth locker but couldn't get to all of it from there.) I replaced it with a simple Ronco plastic tank (in the same place), about 10 gallons capacity, and made a new starboard cover for the shower seat. My thruhulls are in the V-berth starboard locker (my boat was built in 1980). I've had the boat for three years and, in hindsight, the old tank must have been leaking from the first day I bought it. One day last winter the output hose fitting from the old tank broke off. Replacing the tank has been like getting a new boat.John Reid
Did you use the piece of the shower that you removed or did you build from scratch? So far your idea and the one using the starboard vee locker seem best for me. Have you got any pictures to share with us??? Ron/KA5HZV
Did you use the piece of the shower that you removed or did you build from scratch? So far your idea and the one using the starboard vee locker seem best for me. Have you got any pictures to share with us??? Ron/KA5HZV
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