I don't know if this is strictly a cosmetic & watertight issue. I'd be inclined to think of the structural part primarily, since your going to paint anyhow. When we patch glass we have to sand and 'feather it out' maybe 15 times the thickness (ie. 1/4" glass/4" feather area for bonding). I hate this itchy part, but it's necessary if we're talking structural. I then cut all my pieces of roving and begin laying up with the smallest and adding while it's still tacky with layup resin and capping all this roving and mat with plain on automotive 'bondo' containing fiberglass to finish. For the final finish spackling, before prime & paint. I would probably start out with the plywood plug and glass each side this way. I'm thinking structural sandwich, but let me qualify by saying I haven't seen the thing and maybe strength is a minor factor? Since you're going to paint gelcoat is not necessary for consideration. Starting with the oversize piece (the largest) and not tapering the existing glass out by grinding was backwards: you dont' get the bond between old and new: may not be an issue, but if we were talking some part of the structural envelope that would be a problem. Best regards, Dave
Replacing ports/glassing in the old holes first
- Thread starter Hermit Scott
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I really recommend not using automotive bondo. IIRC, it can absorb water and really isn't suited for repairs on a boat. When doing structural repairs, you're generally best off using epoxy, as it has the strongest secondary (adhesive) bonding characteristics of the three resin types—better than polyester or vinylester.
As for when tapering out fiberglass repair, a 12:1 taper should be fine for most work. I prefer to start with the largest patch and work up to progressively smaller ones. The reasoning for this is as you sand the repaired area, having the largest patch down first, means that the sanding will remove or damage only the shorter fibers and smaller patches—having the long contiguous glass fibers adds more strength to the repair.
As for when tapering out fiberglass repair, a 12:1 taper should be fine for most work. I prefer to start with the largest patch and work up to progressively smaller ones. The reasoning for this is as you sand the repaired area, having the largest patch down first, means that the sanding will remove or damage only the shorter fibers and smaller patches—having the long contiguous glass fibers adds more strength to the repair.
I agree with saildog as to putting the largest piece down first. Also I would not use bondo on a boat. I saw a boat that had the transom repaired with bondo. With in a few months it was pealing off the back. It had never been painted over though. I guess it would be ok if it was sealed properly, but I would never buy it in the first place when I could choose epoxy or polyester. Yes it is easier to work with but it is also weaker and has the possibility of taking on water. There is marine bondo, which is vinylester based. I would use that to fill in small holes if I had it on hand, but you can thicken epoxy and do similar things with it.
Hermit,
Saw this online @ soundings magazine & your situation came to mind.
Hope it helps!
http://www.soundingsonline.com/boat-shop/sea-savvy/244632-out-with-the-old-and-in-with-the-new
Saw this online @ soundings magazine & your situation came to mind.
Hope it helps!
http://www.soundingsonline.com/boat-shop/sea-savvy/244632-out-with-the-old-and-in-with-the-new
Hermit,
I'm a little disappointed that you discounted the merits of my suggestion for making a mold. Let me share with you an example to help change your mind perhaps. I met a guy once that bought a wrecked Nonsuch 36. It had been smashed on the rocks on one side with a hole large enough to crawl through into the inside. He contacted Hinterhoeller and they laid up a half a hull for him. He clamped the half hull in position and using a saw cut a saw tooth shape the entire length of both pieces. He then removed the old half a hull and bonded in place the new half a hull to make a whole boat. Of course he had to bevel and add extra layers but in the end he had a $250K boat for about half the price. You may be able to contact Catalina, have them lay up a section of the cabin top without the portholes and you could install it the same way. You would then have a nice gelcoat surface and could install the new ports any way you'd want to . Might cost a bit but would save you a lot of aggravation. As always you are free to do whatever you want.
Regards,
I'm a little disappointed that you discounted the merits of my suggestion for making a mold. Let me share with you an example to help change your mind perhaps. I met a guy once that bought a wrecked Nonsuch 36. It had been smashed on the rocks on one side with a hole large enough to crawl through into the inside. He contacted Hinterhoeller and they laid up a half a hull for him. He clamped the half hull in position and using a saw cut a saw tooth shape the entire length of both pieces. He then removed the old half a hull and bonded in place the new half a hull to make a whole boat. Of course he had to bevel and add extra layers but in the end he had a $250K boat for about half the price. You may be able to contact Catalina, have them lay up a section of the cabin top without the portholes and you could install it the same way. You would then have a nice gelcoat surface and could install the new ports any way you'd want to . Might cost a bit but would save you a lot of aggravation. As always you are free to do whatever you want.
Regards,
Sounds like the PO of his boat used a 5 gal. bucket of 5200 to install the ports. My ports were out in literally 10 minutes. I used a screw gun to pull the screws off the inside ring and a gentle push and they were laying on the deck. Only one port needed more than a gentle push, a Bruce Lee side kick was sufficient though. Complete with a high pitched "WHAAAAA".
When I get finished the sides will be smooth, there will be no exposed wood before the ports are installed, and they will only be sealed on the outside with something removable.
There was a lot of discussion recently about 3M 995, and others like it. But those are for bedding glass or acrylic directly. What is best if you are sealing stainless frames or bronze frames to fiberglass?
I can withstand more aggravation than I can cost. LOL Not by choice I assure you. I think making molds is a good idea. Franklin used a method like that to repair his boat when the bullywagga(spelling) failed him.
It's just that the surfaces I need to fill are completely flat with a slight bend. The mold IS a bent piece of smooth plastic.
Hermit, I went with these when I replaced my portlights - no calking required and a lot cheaper than stainless/bronze
http://www.newfoundmetals.com/catalog/trimatrix1.html
they thru bolt rather than screw on
http://www.newfoundmetals.com/catalog/trimatrix1.html
they thru bolt rather than screw on
Today was a lot of fun.(sarcasm) Though I am actually seeing a light at the end of the tunnel of this beast of a project. I held off on installing the furler and decided to keep working on this until it is done.
SeattleScott-I was just perusing maine sail's diys tutorial pics last night and saw that he used the same company for his ports. They are very nice. How did you seal those? Did you use butyl tape? or a tube of something-or-rather? Edit: Wow I just looked at the prices. I can say that I am more than likely going with them as well. I am only installing 2 to begin with. I intended to spend a bit more on stainless ports but that will do fine.
How 'bout that father winter pic? huh?
SeattleScott-I was just perusing maine sail's diys tutorial pics last night and saw that he used the same company for his ports. They are very nice. How did you seal those? Did you use butyl tape? or a tube of something-or-rather? Edit: Wow I just looked at the prices. I can say that I am more than likely going with them as well. I am only installing 2 to begin with. I intended to spend a bit more on stainless ports but that will do fine.
How 'bout that father winter pic? huh?
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I don't trust the one I did from the inside as much as I trust the one done from the outside, yet.
The one from the outside has plywood screwed into place first and then glass with a pretty good bevel.
The one done from the inside is only beveled from the inside. However it looks great, But I am going to lay a few layers over that whole side and cover the windows from the outside.
I bought some short hair kitty hair to essentially glue in some plywood into that side, but it is not going to be screwed in like the other side.
I was going to just keep working until I had a flat surface on the inside of all the ports, but the temperature dropped and it started taking too long to cure the polyester.
Yesterday was nice though. I was able to work the whole day in a Tshirt.
MrBee- that thought did cross my mind. But that side is very secure with screws that have been glass in. and since the bevel was on the outside on that side, it would be very difficult to do the same thing on that side that I did on the other.
BTW the plastic works great. I didn't wax it or anything.
Is it ok to sand down the gelcoat some and then lay some glass over it or do I need to take it down to bare glass first?
On top of the coach roof, those epoxy spots were my attempt at potting holes. Yeah that got out of control. I am not going to install the wood grab rail. I don't know what I am going to put there. Anything I take off the outside that is wood gets replaced with something else.
The one from the outside has plywood screwed into place first and then glass with a pretty good bevel.
The one done from the inside is only beveled from the inside. However it looks great, But I am going to lay a few layers over that whole side and cover the windows from the outside.
I bought some short hair kitty hair to essentially glue in some plywood into that side, but it is not going to be screwed in like the other side.
I was going to just keep working until I had a flat surface on the inside of all the ports, but the temperature dropped and it started taking too long to cure the polyester.
Yesterday was nice though. I was able to work the whole day in a Tshirt.
MrBee- that thought did cross my mind. But that side is very secure with screws that have been glass in. and since the bevel was on the outside on that side, it would be very difficult to do the same thing on that side that I did on the other.
BTW the plastic works great. I didn't wax it or anything.
Is it ok to sand down the gelcoat some and then lay some glass over it or do I need to take it down to bare glass first?
On top of the coach roof, those epoxy spots were my attempt at potting holes. Yeah that got out of control. I am not going to install the wood grab rail. I don't know what I am going to put there. Anything I take off the outside that is wood gets replaced with something else.
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Thats More project than i would like to take on. I'm not a person that's afraid to drill holes in my boat....but.
I will be replacing the long port lights in our Irwin this spring when the temps get warm enough but plan to do an exact match. Old one's out, send away to make new ones then new ones in.
Brian
I will be replacing the long port lights in our Irwin this spring when the temps get warm enough but plan to do an exact match. Old one's out, send away to make new ones then new ones in.
Brian
Inside the boat all the ports are now filled with fiberglass until they were flush. I tapered back the glass as much as I could before starting to fill them in.
I started with 10 oz. cloth to get the best bond to the taper. I filled the inside with 24. oz. roving to get the thickness I wanted. Then I used kitty hair to fill in around the roving to the edge on top of the 10 oz. Then I sanded it until it was flat. Then I layed on a layer of chopped strand mat.
It is flat on the inside, finally! This was a lot of work. 35 or 40 hours in a mask covered in fiberglass dust. One time I had a 2 feet long piece of roving covered in wet resin fall off onto my arm. I laughed about that, but only until much later on the drive home.
I am down to the cosmetic part of filling in any pock marks or sander mishaps. Since I am inside the boat should I use bondo to smooth over everything and sand it to a smooth finish? If not bondo what is a good fairing substance that I will be able to sand? How do I make it look good at this point? If I use bondo(or fairing substance), do I need to primer then paint? I am really not good with body work or painting and really need some advice here.
What kind of paint should I use and how to apply?
I still have the outside to contend with but I will worry about that later.
MaineSail-I reread your detailed instructions on the first page of this thread. You mention cabisol? Does this make the resin more sandable?
I started with 10 oz. cloth to get the best bond to the taper. I filled the inside with 24. oz. roving to get the thickness I wanted. Then I used kitty hair to fill in around the roving to the edge on top of the 10 oz. Then I sanded it until it was flat. Then I layed on a layer of chopped strand mat.
It is flat on the inside, finally! This was a lot of work. 35 or 40 hours in a mask covered in fiberglass dust. One time I had a 2 feet long piece of roving covered in wet resin fall off onto my arm. I laughed about that, but only until much later on the drive home.
I am down to the cosmetic part of filling in any pock marks or sander mishaps. Since I am inside the boat should I use bondo to smooth over everything and sand it to a smooth finish? If not bondo what is a good fairing substance that I will be able to sand? How do I make it look good at this point? If I use bondo(or fairing substance), do I need to primer then paint? I am really not good with body work or painting and really need some advice here.
What kind of paint should I use and how to apply?
I still have the outside to contend with but I will worry about that later.
MaineSail-I reread your detailed instructions on the first page of this thread. You mention cabisol? Does this make the resin more sandable?
No it actually make it a little harder to sand but it is very strong and highly resistant to dents and dings like micro balloons is. You can also use micro balloons mixed with about 15-20% cabosil to yield a fairly strong filer but one that will be easier to sand. On decks I prefer cabosil but this is a cabin side and should be less prone to dents & dings. You can use whatever you want but micro balloons is rather soft and can be a pain to cover as it likes to bleed through gelcoat..
When working with thickened epoxy, it is generally a good idea to get it as close to faired as possible before it cures... it reduces the post-cure finishing time...
Here is the latest. I did use regular bondo to skim it smooth. It is a bunch of different colors but it is smooth. I am going to brush on primer and try to match the roof with some paint.
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The many shades represents, short hair polyester that was blue, long hair polyester that was green, polyester resin that was dark amber, epoxy that was light amber and bondo skimming it that is pinkish.
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