Replacing nuts on keel bolts

Oct 26, 2008
6,231
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
My Catalina has 1" studs and the torque is specified to be 235 ft-lb. There are 9 of them. My bilge was left pretty ugly by the PO 5 years ago and other than scrubbing it the best I could and re-setting the float switch for the bilge pump, I have pretty much ignored the bilge as long as it didn't have any obvious problems. I finally decided to remove & replace the nuts so I could clean up the steel backing plates. I had hoped to actually remove the plates and get them polished or replaced. But they appeared to be epoxied into place so the job looked way to daunting and I didn't have a good reason to disturb them. So, I polished them with a dremel brush the best I could. I bought new 316 ss nuts and lock washers and decided to replace the old even though the old looked pretty much ok. The old lock washers had significant corrosion-like stains, but didn't appear to have any loss of metal. The plates were slightly pitted in spots, though. This is a 25-year old Catalina by now.

I found 2 nuts of the 9 that I can't get off with a socket, though. They are too close to the sidewalls of the bilge and the socket can't get a grip. In fact, one of them was not even tightened down securely. there is about a quarter-inch gap between the loose lock washer and the bottom of the nut! So much for quality control!

I torqued 4 nuts yesterday. I lubed the studs and the nuts and each nut turned freely when started. I torqued each on gradually up to 175 ft-lb. I have 2 - 1.5 inch sockets. One is just a mild steel socket (silver chrome finish) and the other is a bit beefier, with a black finish. The fit was too tight for the black socket at 2 bolt locations. I could only approach 235 ft-lb by doing a leg press. The 2 nuts in the aft section of the keel were able to be torqued to 235 with the black socket. I could not torque the 2 in the forward section of the keel to 235. The wrench could be pressed forward a significant distance without clicking and it would spring back when the force was released. It seems that the silver socket may be factor. It was also clear that the extension bar was able to twist quite a bit in torque. I was worried about the breaking point.

In any case, I can get at just 3 of the 4 bolts in the center section. I need another few dremel wire brushes to clean up the plates & bilge so I'll tackle that on another day.
IMG_4293.jpg
 

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jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
22,701
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Interesting discovery. Yeoman's work on the polishing. Well done!:)

Your information leads me to wonder if the infamous Catalina smile could be connected to the bolt positioning and difficulty getting the forward nuts to meet the specified torque.
You can not be the first owner or boat repair agent to experience this issue. Perhaps you are one of the few to record the process. (Future Catalina Owners should be thankful.) Could previous workers have experienced the same challenge and called it good on that forward nut?

All conjecture, I know. But it does cause me to wonder.:oops:
 

dmax

.
Jul 29, 2018
1,152
Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
That's a lot of keel bolt - my O'Day 35 had 7 that were 3/4" for a 4600 lb. keel. The most forward one was difficult to reach but putting them against the fiberglass like yours was not very nice. Maybe you could find a thin-walled socket and maybe dremmel a little glass away but may not be worth it. Does Catalina reccomend 235 ft. lbs.? I set mine to 110 which is around what Catalina reccomends for their 34 & 36. Even 110 is hard to get to in tight quaters.
 

MFD

.
Jun 23, 2016
172
Hunter 41DS Pacific NW USA
First of all, congratulations on doing this, it is inspirational and on the backlog of maintenance tasks for my boat.

For sure, some kind of poor design or practice with the manufacturing process that those bolts are so close to the side of the bilge. Not to mention that one being left loose in the first place.

Unfortunately I have no idea what the best options might be. I guess if those two bolts have been that way for 25 years, leaving them as-is might be the appropriate solution, certainly the easiest? Grinding the fiberglass back brings on its own perils. Both possibly causing structural weakness, and also being extremely diligent about getting it totally sealed and waterproofed?
 

MFD

.
Jun 23, 2016
172
Hunter 41DS Pacific NW USA
If you know what a crews foot wrench is, looks like you could get one of those in to tighten those nuts.

dj
Yeah, that is the name of the tool (crows foot), I could picture it but couldn't remember the name.
 
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dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
4,162
Belliure 41 Back in the Chesapeake
Another option might be a deep-offset box wrench. But I'm not sure you have the clearance on those nuts...

dj

 
Feb 26, 2004
22,961
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Does Catalina recomend 235 ft. lbs.? I set mine to 110 which is around what Catalina reccomends for their 34 & 36. Even 110 is hard to get to in tight quarters.
I had the very same question. Maybe a typo?
This is a 25-year old Catalina by now.
>>>>>>>>
there is about a quarter-inch gap between the loose lock washer and the bottom of the nut! So much for quality control!
Seemingly inconsistent observations.:banghead:
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,231
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
That's a lot of keel bolt - my O'Day 35 had 7 that were 3/4" for a 4600 lb. keel. The most forward one was difficult to reach but putting them against the fiberglass like yours was not very nice. Maybe you could find a thin-walled socket and maybe dremmel a little glass away but may not be worth it. Does Catalina reccomend 235 ft. lbs.? I set mine to 110 which is around what Catalina reccomends for their 34 & 36. Even 110 is hard to get to in tight quaters.
Yep, there is a huge difference between a 3/4" bolt and a 1" bolt. I looked at this schedule from Catalina Direct. For unknown reason, the keel bolts on C 320 are 1". Now that you mention it, there seems to be a huge safety factor if 3/4" bolts are appropriate for larger boats. I don't think I will need to worry about the few that I may not be able to torque to spec. If the same keel can be secured with smaller bolts, then what do I need to worry about? I don't imagine that the keels on a C 34 have any more bolts than the 9 that are on my boat.

https://www.catalinadirect.com/images/features/Keel Bolt Schedule .pdf

The source of this chart is Catalina Direct.

Remember, all torque charts are based on the size of the bolt and the material (bolt strength). It doesn't matter what is the application. All torque charts are the same depending on the strength of the bolt that is being used.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,231
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Another option might be a deep-offset box wrench. But I'm not sure you have the clearance on those nuts...

dj

Would be nice to have one of these but expensive for a single use! I think I'm just going to get at it with a pipe wrench and simply snug it down if i can. Or perhaps I can build up the plate surface with washers if the sidewall keeps it from going any lower. I think it's perfectly safe if I can just get some tension on it.
 
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Likes: Ward H
Oct 26, 2010
2,093
Hunter 40.5 Beaufort, SC
Just a caution to those who may be inclined to use your feet to try to apply torque as shown in Post #1. You are taking a risk in doing this and probably not getting an accurate torque application anyway. For high torques with long torque wrenches and extension it is a two man job. As you can imagine, with the force applied as shown in Post #1 you may be putting a significant amount of force that is not being applied as rotational force (torque) but rather as a vector that could damage the bolt. When using a torque wrench, a "counter torque" should be applied at the point of rotation (the ratchet point) to ensure that, as much as possible, that only a rotational force is applied. If you want to break a bolt, just grab the end of the wrench and crank away. This is actually true for any ratchet wrench, not just a torque wrench. The longer the extension, the more the effect. I've witnessed hundreds of torque application by qualified mechanics in critical applications and they always (the good ones anyway) apply counter-torque. That's the way we were taught in the Navy too.
 
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Sep 26, 2008
685
Hunter 340 0 Wickford, RI
I agree with Smokey73 and using your feet. Be cautious with that.
Do you think you could use a set of this type of deep thin walled sockets? I know you can’t get a ratchet on them and torque them down to spec, but you may be able to fit one between the nut and wall and at least sock into place.
Just a thought and a possible way out.
Please excuse my work bench, I got some projects going on.
 

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Jan 7, 2011
5,416
Oday 322 East Chicago, IN
I agree with Smokey73 and using your feet. Be cautious with that.
Do you think you could use a set of this type of deep thin walled sockets? I know you can’t get a ratchet on them and torque them down to spec, but you may be able to fit one between the nut and wall and at least sock into place.
Just a thought and a possible way out.
Please excuse my work bench, I got some projects going on.
I think those thin-wall ones will distort under the 235 foot pounds he is trying to achieve. But maybe he can get the few he can’t tighten all the way at least “ snugged down”.

A crows foot is more robust, but will be hard to torque as the drive is not centered over the bolt.

On my O’Day 322, that only has 3) 1” and 1) 3/4” bolts, I use my socket, a 1/2” drive extension (not nearly as long as the OP’s), a torque wench and a cheater bar. I lean into the bar and see if I can get any movement of the nut. If not, I consider it tight and go sailing. My torque wrench doesn’t go to 235, so i am really giving it a good grunt with a little help from the extension. I had to have some special sockets made because they needed to be extra deep.

IMG_0392_Original.jpeg IMG_1058_Original.jpeg

Greg
 

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
4,162
Belliure 41 Back in the Chesapeake
A crows foot is more robust, but will be hard to torque as the drive is not centered over the bolt.
Just an FYI- while technically you may be correct in terms of "exact torque" - they are often used in that manner in practice. If one wanted, you could actually calculate the the minor off-set....

dj
 
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Likes: Tally Ho
Feb 26, 2004
22,961
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
I don't imagine that the keels on a C 34 have any more bolts than the 9 that are on my boat.
Thx for that handy chart.

That chart your posted also shows how many bolts on each boat. I says 10 (3/4") for my C34, but it show 8 (1") for yours NOT the 9 you say you have. So should we question just how reliable it is?
 
Apr 25, 2024
273
Fuji 32 Bellingham
I actually don't think I would hesitate to get in there with a Dremel and shave the fiberglass back just enough to squeeze my socket on. It looks like very little material would need to be removed. In terms of structural integrity, in that location, only vertically-oriented fibers are contributing to strength. And, in that location, by the time you even get to those fibers, you will have gained about 0.5 - 1.0 mm - which alone might be enough. But, even another millimeter or two will not appreciably weaken the region, provided you just do it right at the nut.

But, don't take my word for it. Contact Catalina. They are really awesome about answering questions. They helped me with my 50-year old 27 when I had keel bolt issues. They will tell you exactly what you should do.
 
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Likes: LloydB
Oct 26, 2008
6,231
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Thx for that handy chart.

That chart your posted also shows how many bolts on each boat. I says 10 (3/4") for my C34, but it show 8 (1") for yours NOT the 9 you say you have. So should we question just how reliable it is?
Um .... 10 is the threads per inch for 3/4" bolt. 1" bolt has 8 threads per inch. That is the common method to define a coarse threaded bolt.

The cross-sectional area of a bolt increases logarithmically because of the radius squared. It's not surprising that the max torque increases so dramatically between a 3/4" bolt and a 1" bolt. As I stated before ... the torque is based on the bolt strength. It doesn't really matter what the application is for. I think that it doesn't matter very much if max torque is achieved at every bolt, especially since they used smaller bolts on keels that are probably larger.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,231
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Just a caution to those who may be inclined to use your feet to try to apply torque as shown in Post #1. You are taking a risk in doing this and probably not getting an accurate torque application anyway. For high torques with long torque wrenches and extension it is a two man job. As you can imagine, with the force applied as shown in Post #1 you may be putting a significant amount of force that is not being applied as rotational force (torque) but rather as a vector that could damage the bolt. When using a torque wrench, a "counter torque" should be applied at the point of rotation (the ratchet point) to ensure that, as much as possible, that only a rotational force is applied. If you want to break a bolt, just grab the end of the wrench and crank away. This is actually true for any ratchet wrench, not just a torque wrench. The longer the extension, the more the effect. I've witnessed hundreds of torque application by qualified mechanics in critical applications and they always (the good ones anyway) apply counter-torque. That's the way we were taught in the Navy too.
Good thought, but not being a mechanic ... how do i apply counter-torque? I do think I have a shorter extension.
 
Oct 26, 2010
2,093
Hunter 40.5 Beaufort, SC
Good thought, but not being a mechanic ... how do i apply counter-torque? I do think I have a shorter extension.
As you are shown in Post #1 where you are pushing the end of the torque wrench in a clockwise direction (tightening the nut) you (or a helper in this case) grab the torque wrench right at the end where the extension attaches with your right hand and attempt to keep the extension vertical. The force from the torque wrench will want to tilt the extension forward (in your case). Your right hand or your helper will be pulling back on the ratchet end of the torque wrench in trying to keep the extension vertical.

Try it a few times and you'll get the hang of it. For a weak bolt, failure to apply counter torque can easily break the bolt.
 
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Jun 2, 2004
3,495
Hunter 23.5 Fort Walton Yacht Club, Florida
I don't know how eager you are to get all the nuts tightened down. Because of a possible weird mental defect, I could not leave it even though I believe your assessment that it is not necessary to be true.

Here is an option for you, 235 ftlbs is too much for half inch drive tools. 3/4" 1 1/2" sockets can be had for $10 to $12 on eBay. Grind the socket thinner across a third of the circumference, you'll only be able to turn it 30 to 45 degrees at a time perhaps but it 'll get you there. Get a 3/4" extension 10$ to 20$. Your extension in the picture looks too long but you know the length you need for all your bolts. Two extensions to make a longer one is an option as well. Lastly a 3/4 to 1/2 adapter for your torque wrench.

Keep your face away from the torque wrench when torquing it down if something lets go it likely may be worse than a fat lip.

One other option is to cut notches in the bolt 1/4 of the way from the left side of each flat and tighten it by tapping with a not too sharp chisel in the notch.