Replacing Lowrance Depth and Speed gauges - upgrading to include temp and wind

May 29, 2011
17
Just Enough 290 Fort Walton Beach
What I've learned so far...my depth and speed do need replaced as I had expected, and I am still hoping to add a wind gauge even though I won't be doing a lot of offshore sailing in this boat, but will be crossing the Great Lakes and live in FL so will come in handy in the Gulf and crossing to places like Cuba and The Bahamas.

My AP and CP do not need to be replaced even though AP is older Raymarine (NMEA 0183), but the Garminn CP (also older) is both NMEA 0183 and NMEA 2000. My vhf is 0183 and doesn't need replaced although the wire is spliced in the mast and could be replaced along with the antenna (depends on how much all the other stuff will cost since these are currently working).

I've spoke with a B&G rep, Garmin rep, and West Marine folks, haven't heard back from local Raymarine rep, which lines up with what I've been told so far from more than one person. The B&G, Garmin, and West Marine reps recommended against a wireless wind gauge for various reasons including limited range, problems with compatibility with the CP, which is just as well since wired ones seem a little less expensive.

I can get warranty repair work done if I can provide a receipt from a legitimate provider of my instruments, but there is a risk in buying at a discounted price because manufacturers are trying to enforce the MSRP prices. That said, I have looked at Defender, P2 Marine, and Hodges to comparison price. However, I am waiting to purchase because ultimately, anything I buy will need to be compatible with my Garmin CP if I want things to work together and not just provide read outs on non-connected head units. As for upgrading the transducer, it was recommended to check with the Garmin rep to see if compatible (and that goes for just about anything that will need to connect to my CP, which will in turn affect the performance of the AP).

I haven't looked into connectors to make the units talk to each other yet but will also keep that in mind if I talk with the reps again.

Thanks for all the input and more phone calls will be required to Garmin once I know what size transducer is currently installed to see which ones will be not only compatible with my CP but will also fit in the current holes in the bottom of my boat. As for the recommendation for an ultrasonic transducer, the Garmin rep didn't find any information on it at all which means it's too new for them to know if it's compatible, which means I'm definitely holding off on that technology at this point, but thanks for the suggestion.
 
May 23, 2016
217
O'Day 1984 23 Island Park, NY
not for the budget minded at about $1K.
True... Thankfully I'm a part owner on that boat so. Share those costs... And depending on the housing they can be had for $865 at P2
he couldn't find any info on it about compatibility with
That's a shame. Since I had nmea2k as well as 0183 I would think compatibility wouldn't be such an issue, but you are correct to be concerned.. sometimes calling back and speaking to someone else gets different knowledge... try telling them the network capability it has... Or sending email... U could also try talking to airmar about compatibility... BTW if ur cp isn't a current model Garmin may need try the two together...
 

colemj

.
Jul 13, 2004
119
Dolphin Catamaran Dolphin 460 Mystic, CT
You can stop worrying about repair service because there is nothing to repair in the depth, wind, and speed transducers or displays. If under warranty, they just send a new one. If out of warranty, you buy a new one, although sometimes the manufacturer offers a discount. Well, wind transducers could need new cups or bearings, but these are readily available from all manufacturers.

FWIW, Garmin has the worse reliable wind transducer. ALL of the depth and speed transducers from all manufacturers are the same Airmar products, so there is no difference in reliability or function. The only difference is the cable fitting to the instrument and, in the case of Raymarine flavors, a needed converter box.

All of these transducers come in NMEA0183 and NMEA2000 variants. Your Garmin CP will act as a converter and multiplexer, so no need to get a separate converter/multiplexer. I'd personally stay away from Raymarine because they are the only company not conforming to standardized communication cabling and protocols. You would need additional converter boxes for the transducers and a network converter to get the data to the Garmin CP.

If it was me (actually I recently did this), I'd get the NMEA2000 versions of the transducers and let the Garmin do the translation and multiplexing to provide the AP with the data it needs. Don't get a pure NMEA2000 wind transducer, though, get a version that outputs NMEA0183 and has a 0183/2000 converter attached to the boat side of the cable. Many are doing it this way now, because it is a far easier way to wire the communication up the mast.

Mark
 
May 29, 2011
17
Just Enough 290 Fort Walton Beach
You can stop worrying about repair service because there is nothing to repair in the depth, wind, and speed transducers or displays. If under warranty, they just send a new one. If out of warranty, you buy a new one, although sometimes the manufacturer offers a discount. Well, wind transducers could need new cups or bearings, but these are readily available from all manufacturers.

FWIW, Garmin has the worse reliable wind transducer. ALL of the depth and speed transducers from all manufacturers are the same Airmar products, so there is no difference in reliability or function. The only difference is the cable fitting to the instrument and, in the case of Raymarine flavors, a needed converter box.

All of these transducers come in NMEA0183 and NMEA2000 variants. Your Garmin CP will act as a converter and multiplexer, so no need to get a separate converter/multiplexer. I'd personally stay away from Raymarine because they are the only company not conforming to standardized communication cabling and protocols. You would need additional converter boxes for the transducers and a network converter to get the data to the Garmin CP.

If it was me (actually I recently did this), I'd get the NMEA2000 versions of the transducers and let the Garmin do the translation and multiplexing to provide the AP with the data it needs. Don't get a pure NMEA2000 wind transducer, though, get a version that outputs NMEA0183 and has a 0183/2000 converter attached to the boat side of the cable. Many are doing it this way now, because it is a far easier way to wire the communication up the mast.

Mark
Thanks for all the info. I did hear back from the local Raymarine/Garmin/B&G certified installer. He educated me about replacing items under warranty and recommended against B&G due to customer service issues. He also said Raymarine isn't as user friendly (steeper learning curve). And your info about needing converter boxes and proprietary cables/protocols gives more weight to going with Garmin. He also pointed me towards the Garmin. Do you have any information about Garmin wind transducer problems? I'm leaning towards a triducer like the DST800 that includes depth, speed, and wind. However, I will since I have two transducers now and by combining speed with depth, I could go with a separate wind but would that add significant cost? The rep also recommended the Garmin GNX 52 package with a GMI gauge but the gauge costs $500 extra. Not sure the fact that it's color and has lots of extras is worth that much money but haven't gotten any info from sailors with this gauge yet either to make an informed decision.
 

colemj

.
Jul 13, 2004
119
Dolphin Catamaran Dolphin 460 Mystic, CT
We have had B&G stuff (among others) for 17 years through 4 generations of products and have found their service and support very good. Furuno is probably the best for this. Garmin has a bad reputation for very quick intentional product obsolescence and leaving their customers in a lurch refusing to support non-current devices - even with charts(!). A google search will help find problems with their wind transducer, as well as their support issues wrt obsolescence.

The DST800 is an Airmar transducer (they all are). This is a popular one because it puts 3 functions into a single housing, but it also is their least rugged transducer, with many reports of failures.

BTW, the triducer part of that is speed, depth, and temperature. You will still need a separate wind transducer at a separate cost. I think the package you listed includes one, though.

Garmin is like Raymarine in that they use a separate converter box to bring some of their transducer data to the standard network. Their wind instrument is one of these - it uses a proprietary communication protocol that is converted by a black box. More to go wrong there.

Don't worry about user-friendliness. First, you are looking for speed, depth, and wind - these don't have user-friendly issues because they are straight-forward readouts. Second, none of this stuff is an iphone in this regard. They all have learning curves, but they are not onerous ones. Ironically, the ones that are "easier" to learn up front will become the ones you are swearing at after a bit because they have deeply hidden or removed the more advanced features or adjustments that you later find you need. Garmin vs Furuno radar is a good example of this. There are much better criteria for choosing besides the initial learning curve.

Mark
 
May 17, 2004
5,031
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
He educated me about replacing items under warranty and recommended against B&G due to customer service issues.
I’ve had to call B&G a couple time for help and they've always been responsive that way. I’ve heard their email support leaves a bit to be desired. I’m very happy with our B&G chart plotter and Simrad instruments. Our Airmar DST 800 now reads the temperature inaccurately, but the speed and depth work fine. We did need to have our Simrad wind transducer replaced under warranty, but the replacement has been fine.
 
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May 29, 2011
17
Just Enough 290 Fort Walton Beach
We have had B&G stuff (among others) for 17 years through 4 generations of products and have found their service and support very good. Furuno is probably the best for this. Garmin has a bad reputation for very quick intentional product obsolescence and leaving their customers in a lurch refusing to support non-current devices - even with charts(!). A google search will help find problems with their wind transducer, as well as their support issues wrt obsolescence.

The DST800 is an Airmar transducer (they all are). This is a popular one because it puts 3 functions into a single housing, but it also is their least rugged transducer, with many reports of failures.

BTW, the triducer part of that is speed, depth, and temperature. You will still need a separate wind transducer at a separate cost. I think the package you listed includes one, though.

Garmin is like Raymarine in that they use a separate converter box to bring some of their transducer data to the standard network. Their wind instrument is one of these - it uses a proprietary communication protocol that is converted by a black box. More to go wrong there.

Don't worry about user-friendliness. First, you are looking for speed, depth, and wind - these don't have user-friendly issues because they are straight-forward readouts. Second, none of this stuff is an iphone in this regard. They all have learning curves, but they are not onerous ones. Ironically, the ones that are "easier" to learn up front will become the ones you are swearing at after a bit because they have deeply hidden or removed the more advanced features or adjustments that you later find you need. Garmin vs Furuno radar is a good example of this. There are much better criteria for choosing besides the initial learning curve.

Mark

A lot to think about here. It goes against what I've been told so far but bears thought. What is your experience with non-B&G products? Do you have someone else on board that also uses your navigation system? If yes, what does s/he like about it? Not like?

I will look into the reviews for the Garmin versus B&G products and transducer reliability issues. I don't think I'll keep the boat for more than 2-3 years, but I want things to work at least that long so reliability is important, especially since I'm not doing the install and repair/replace (not skills currently in my wheelhouse). If you have specific links/references/citations you recommend, I'd be interested to check them out.

Makes sense about just needing to be able to read simple displays, I don't want lots of info that I have to scroll through, proprietary issues/hidden settings, or complex converter systems. However, I'm also on a sailboat and have been educated that some manufacturers design for sailboats but most seem to be for powerboats, which will also impact what settings/info/data they provide.

Luckily, I have two more weeks to educate myself more before I have to choose which system, and appreciate all the guidance I've received so far. Yours is definitely helpful too, and gives me more to consider.
 
May 29, 2011
17
Just Enough 290 Fort Walton Beach
I’ve had to call B&G a couple time for help and they've always been responsive that way. I’ve heard their email support leaves a bit to be desired. I’m very happy with our B&G chart plotter and Simrad instruments. Our Airmar DST 800 now reads the temperature inaccurately, but the speed and depth work fine. We did need to have our Simrad wind transducer replaced under warranty, but the replacement has been fine.
Thanks for the info about B&G customer service. How long have you had the DST800 installed? Are you in salt or freshwater? And do you think that matters? Yours is the only post about Simrad, sorry it had issues. Not sure that's a good endorsement for it but I have a little more time to look into reliability of the wired wind gauges before I decide which system I will have installed.
 
May 17, 2004
5,031
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
Thanks for the info about B&G customer service. How long have you had the DST800 installed? Are you in salt or freshwater? And do you think that matters? Yours is the only post about Simrad, sorry it had issues. Not sure that's a good endorsement for it but I have a little more time to look into reliability of the wired wind gauges before I decide which system I will have installed.
The DST800 came installed with the boat in 2014, and we sail in fresh / slightly brackish water. It was working fine until last year, when it started reading 10-15 degrees high. There is a calibration function on the instruments but it fails. Our yard did haul the boat in the wrong spot the previous fall, and the strap ran right under the transducer. We replaced the paddle wheel because one of the vanes was broken, but I don’t know if the pressure could’ve caused the temperature issues. I’ve read in other places though that the temperature isn’t all that durable so our failure may or may not be from the haul out.

On the wind transducer - The rep who did the replacement said something about the design being changed, so it’s possible that the newer models may be more reliable than the original one that broke. It’s been fine for several years now anyway.

Simrad, B&G, and Lowrance are all the same parent company by the way (Navico). They’re all supported the same, and the hardware is very similar, so customer feedback on one pretty much applies to the others. The B&G software is a little more targeted toward sailing, Simrad is general purpose, and Lowrance toward fishing.
 

colemj

.
Jul 13, 2004
119
Dolphin Catamaran Dolphin 460 Mystic, CT
Our Airmar DST 800 now reads the temperature inaccurately, but the speed and depth work fine.
That isn't a problem with the DST800 specifically. The temp sensors on all Airmar transducers seem to only work for a few years before going bad. I don't know why, but they aren't robust at all. Depth and speed work forever - just temp goes bad.

Mark
 
Oct 29, 2018
24
Hunter MH37 Mississauga
Asked a Garmin rep about an ultrasonic transducer, he couldn't find any info on it about compatibility with their systems so may be too early to incorporate into current systems.
As long as you convert through a gateway the NMEA 2000 signal from the Ultrasonic sensor to your NMEA 0183 equipment on your boat, it will work.
 
Oct 29, 2018
24
Hunter MH37 Mississauga
Your decision for the display(s) (for speed, wind, etc.) will come down to personal preference. If your CP's software is still being supported by Garmin with software upgrades, then stick with Garmin on the display(s) as long as you keep them backward compatible (software wise). That way software upgrade on the CP will also upgrade the software on the separate display. Otherwise, you'll have no way of upgrading the display(s) software or firmware if ever needed. Note however that software/firmware upgrades on simple displays are very rare, and a little more frequent on the higher end colour multi function programmable displays but still rare enough.

In the end, Raymarine, Garmin and B&G are the three top brands in boat electronics with Raymarine owning the largest market share. My experience is that the support of each is dependent not on the manufacturer, but on the local reps and dealers. Here in Toronto we have direct manufacturer support for Raymarine, so the support is amazing. We also have very knowledgeable dealers for all three brands. Do you own research on failure rates.

I have full Raymarine on my sailboat (AP, CP, 4 displays, wind, depth, speed, temp) and have never ever had an issue in 5 years. My depth, speed and temp sensor (tri-ducer single thru-hull) is an Airmar DST800 NMEA0183 through a gateway to NMEA2000 onto the SeaTalkng backbone. This is now available in NMEA2000 (AIRMAR). Pretty standard setup, even for Garmin or B&G, just different names for the gateway and backbone. Stay with an Airmar speed/depth combined sensor as they are everywhere, reliable and easy to get parts and 1 hole is better than 2!! Sizes are all standard as well and unless your old sensor is very old, this may even be a simple swap out without needing to re-bed the housing.

Defender has bundles (display(s), wind, speed, depth) for sale from all three brands. Raymarine is by far the cheapest at just under $1100. Search for items 259422 or 261129. The first one has two thru-hulls (sparate speed and depth), wind speed/direction and three displays (one for speed, one for depth and one for wind)...older units, but still supported by Raymarine. The second one is their latest multi-display and includes one thru-hull (speed, depth, temp), wind speed/direction and one display which you can set up to show you whatever you want. The advantage of the first one is that depending on how far away your displays are from your helm, they may be easier to read.

B&G and Garmin have similar bundles at $500 - $800 more.

Just to throw a wrench into all the dialogue so far, since you already have multiple brands on the boat, look into a Maretron DSM410 display (Maretron | DSM410). These are native NMEA 2000 and bullet proof. Pair it with the Airmar DST800, put it all on the backbone to your CP and AP and your all set. Maretron also sells the gateways. You'll just need the appropriate connectors to your existing system. SV Delos on YouTube (Sailing SV Delos) have this system on their Amel Super 54' offshore cruiser. Search for "instrument upgrade delos" and they show you the complete installation and schematics as well as why they chose what they chose. I think the direct link to the video is

That's it for me...good luck and let us know what you decided and how it went.
 
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colemj

.
Jul 13, 2004
119
Dolphin Catamaran Dolphin 460 Mystic, CT
That way software upgrade on the CP will also upgrade the software on the separate display. Otherwise, you'll have no way of upgrading the display(s) software or firmware if ever needed.
This isn't the case for B&G and Simrad. Their displays have a USB port on them for software upgrades using a common usb memory fob.

Mark
 
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colemj

.
Jul 13, 2004
119
Dolphin Catamaran Dolphin 460 Mystic, CT
What is your experience with non-B&G products? Do you have someone else on board that also uses your navigation system? If yes, what does s/he like about it? Not like?
We intentionally have a dog's breakfast of electronics on our boat. With the exception of Raymarine and some Garmin, all manufacturer's gear connect straight with each other using identical communication protocols. Raymarine still uses proprietary connectors that require a separate converter to get their data to other equipment, as well as another separate converter for their transducers. Garmin requires a separate converter for some of their transducers like wind. Why these two companies stick with proprietary and non-standard hardware and communications is something I don't understand. I refuse to invest in them anymore for this reason alone.

Our approach is to get what we consider best in breed for each function being performed. Thus, we have a system consisting of components from B&G, Furuno, Simrad, Maretron, Raymarine, LC-Capteurs, Vesper, Actisense, Airmar, and KVH. With the glaring exception of Raymarine, all of this just simply plugged together and worked seamlessly right out of the box.

There are two of us on board. One of us doesn't ever read a manual (ever) or care much about the deeper functionality, etc. We both have been around enough to realize that every piece of gear has good and not so good aspects, and which is which aren't even shared opinions between us. It is just the nature of all devices. I have yet to find a piece of modern gear that was so unusable and confusing as to set itself apart from all others. This is different from that in the past.

Personal preference is everything here, so no specific recommendations beyond pointing out what I think are arguable weaknesses in general, like proprietary connectors, communication protocols, and separate converters. In the end, there really isn't a terrible choice, and everyone has their random lemons.

Mark
 
May 29, 2011
17
Just Enough 290 Fort Walton Beach
You can stop worrying about repair service because there is nothing to repair in the depth, wind, and speed transducers or displays. If under warranty, they just send a new one. If out of warranty, you buy a new one, although sometimes the manufacturer offers a discount. Well, wind transducers could need new cups or bearings, but these are readily available from all manufacturers.

FWIW, Garmin has the worse reliable wind transducer. ALL of the depth and speed transducers from all manufacturers are the same Airmar products, so there is no difference in reliability or function. The only difference is the cable fitting to the instrument and, in the case of Raymarine flavors, a needed converter box.

All of these transducers come in NMEA0183 and NMEA2000 variants. Your Garmin CP will act as a converter and multiplexer, so no need to get a separate converter/multiplexer. I'd personally stay away from Raymarine because they are the only company not conforming to standardized communication cabling and protocols. You would need additional converter boxes for the transducers and a network converter to get the data to the Garmin CP.

If it was me (actually I recently did this), I'd get the NMEA2000 versions of the transducers and let the Garmin do the translation and multiplexing to provide the AP with the data it needs. Don't get a pure NMEA2000 wind transducer, though, get a version that outputs NMEA0183 and has a 0183/2000 converter attached to the boat side of the cable. Many are doing it this way now, because it is a far easier way to wire the communication up the mast.

Mark
Thanks for the info
That isn't a problem with the DST800 specifically. The temp sensors on all Airmar transducers seem to only work for a few years before going bad. I don't know why, but they aren't robust at all. Depth and speed work forever - just temp goes bad.

Mark

Good thing I only swim in warm waters and don't really need to know how cold the water is then. Thanks for the info!