Replacing Lowrance Depth and Speed gauges - upgrading to include temp and wind

[tinabastien]

While my Lowrance depth gauge is still working, the speed gauge isn't. I do not have a wind gauge but am interested in adding one. I live on a 2000 Hunter 290. I plan to start coastal cruising in Florida in the fall and then complete the Great Loop next year. The boat is being hauled on May 6 so I need to purchase the parts before then to reduce the length of time the boat will be in the yard. I will be having someone else do the work. I have a Garmin GPSMap 741xs. I'm looking to replace the depth, speed, and add a wind gauge, and would likely need to replace the transducers and head units on the depth and speed and add wind since I don't currently have one. I'm seeing packages that include all of these for various prices depending on the manufacturer. I also have an autopilot, not sure which manufacturer at this moment. The depth and speed instruments are not tied into the autopilot but the Garmin chart plotter is.

Which system would you recommend for the instrument upgrade? Garmin or Tacktick by Raymarine? If not Garmin, do I have to also buy a NMEA unit to make them compatible? Price is definitely a consideration. Would you recommend refurbished or only new and why? And do you have recommended suppliers? I'm using Google as my personal shopper.

Thanks from a neophyte cruiser and boat owner.

 

[Captain Larry-DH]

Nothing wrong with that Garmin CP. Do you already have an autopilot? If you want them to integrate it is easier if the instruments, autopilot and CP are from the same maker.
Its helpful to be able to set the autopilot to track a specific wind angle, or to set a course on the CP and have the AP track it.
So, if you’re happy with your Garmin, you can stay with Garmin all the way.

 

[dlochner]

While it is possible to integrate different instruments from different manufacturers, it is much easier to stick with one brand. If you need help and call Garmin about integrating a Ray Marine auto pilot, they will probably be of little help. So you're on your own.

For a boat your size with a wheel, you don't have a lot of choices in APs, Raymarine is about the only option. If you have a tiller, both Ray Marine and Simrad have tiller pilots. There are more choices with below decks autopilots, but I suspect they are out of your price range.

So, if you want to integrate the AP with the chart plotter and instruments, you'll have to choose the AP first, then chart plotter, then the instruments.

As for the Chartplotter, go to a West Marine store and play with different plotters, see what you like and can afford. If you put together a package of what you want ask for a quote, it may be less than what's posted in the store or online. Defender.com will generally give you a better price, again call and ask. There is very little markup in electronics, so don't expect deep discounts.

Who is going to do the install? You should ask them about packages too. Some installers don't care if you buy the instruments elsewhere, others, will want to sell you the instruments. It is worthwhile to talk to them about an all in price, instruments and installation. Since they will be making money off the instruments, the installation price might be lower.

Be wary of online deals in the marine industry. Some are outright scams, some are gray market goods. Since you are new at this, tech support may be important.

What's your time line for the Great Loop?

 

[tinabastien]

While it is possible to integrate different instruments from different manufacturers, it is much easier to stick with one brand. If you need help and call Garmin about integrating a Ray Marine auto pilot, they will probably be of little help. So you're on your own.

For a boat your size with a wheel, you don't have a lot of choices in APs, Raymarine is about the only option. If you have a tiller, both Ray Marine and Simrad have tiller pilots. There are more choices with below decks autopilots, but I suspect they are out of your price range.

So, if you want to integrate the AP with the chart plotter and instruments, you'll have to choose the AP first, then chart plotter, then the instruments.

As for the Chartplotter, go to a West Marine store and play with different plotters, see what you like and can afford. If you put together a package of what you want ask for a quote, it may be less than what's posted in the store or online. Defender.com will generally give you a better price, again call and ask. There is very little markup in electronics, so don't expect deep discounts.

Who is going to do the install? You should ask them about packages too. Some installers don't care if you buy the instruments elsewhere, others, will want to sell you the instruments. It is worthwhile to talk to them about an all in price, instruments and installation. Since they will be making money off the instruments, the installation price might be lower.

Be wary of online deals in the marine industry. Some are outright scams, some are gray market goods. Since you are new at this, tech support may be important.

What's your time line for the Great Loop?

I have wheel steering. My Garmin chartplotter and autopilot currently work together although I don't know what brand the autopilot is until I dig through the manuals again tomorrow. However, I don't intend to change either of them out since the chart plotter is only a couple of years old and the autopilot works fine. If the wind/depth/speed don't integrate, I can still use the info on them to assist with my helming, but it sounds like Garmin instruments may work better based on what you are recommending. I have contacted some friends that have a business to do some of the repairs to my engine while in the yard, but the boatyard staff will most likely handle the install. As for tech support, I do have some friends that are delivery captains who can advise me mostly from online, but I expect a lot of OJT. Since the virus and Army Corps of Engineers are affecting these season's loop access, I hope to start next spring.

 

[dlochner]

Since the virus and Army Corps of Engineers are affecting these season's loop access, I hope to start next spring.

Are you going up river first or up the coast first? In a sailboat, it is better to go up the coast and then down the rivers.

 

[leo310]

I have a Garmin MFD connected to a Raymarine EV-200 AP using nmea 2k with no problems. The biggest draw back is I can update the MFD but not the AP.

 

[lemoiney]

You can use pretty much any knot log, depth, temp sensor and wired wind instrument you want. Go wired as the wireless may or may not talk to your CP. Most of the wired ones still talk NMEA 0183 not NMEA2000, so you’ll need a converter unless your CP has an input for NMEA0183 (most do not). As long as everything is connected to the same NMEA 2000 data backbone (through appropriate gateways) your AP and CP should be able to see and share all the data. Having said that I’ve heard of many people with different brands of AP’s and CP’s that can’t steer to wind direction even though they have all the data visible on their CP. I suspect is a function of how they connected wind and speed to the AP. I suggest calling the Raymarine rep in your area as that’s the key to what I think you’re trying to achieve. Your local chandlery should have their number. Good luck.

 

[Captain Larry-DH]

I suspect is a function of how they connected wind and speed to the AP.

Correct, it has nothing to do with the CP. The Wind instrument must be talking directly with the AP. The OP wrote that he isn't much concerned with being able to use the AP to track wind, and that is understandable in narrow inland waters such as the Great Loop. However, in more open waters I think it's a very valuable function -- one I use frequently to optimize sail trim without having to adjust sail trim as much. I find that the boat keeps a higher average speed, and I don't need to tend sails for minor variations. Overall, the track meanders more but I think we generally arrive sooner considering the higher average boat speed (compared with sailing straighter to a magnetic bearing line).
Here's a short clip where I was doing that - the AP started beeping at last moments before the video ends, because the wind had shifted beyond the limits. The AP would still track the wind, but the beep is an alert to crew that there's been a major course change. (This is a Raymarine AP). All I did was press the button to acknowledge the shift and stop the beep.

 

[tinabastien]

Thanks for all the input so far.

My AP is a Raymarine ST4000 (works fine); depth sounder is Lowrance ST30 (working but head unit read out is fading); speed is also Lowrance (doesn't work even when transponder has been cleaned); chartplotter is Garmin GPSMap 741xs (works fine). Considering adding a wind gauge although it makes sense that it isn't really necessary as long as I stay in the ICW and rivers, but I may decide to go off-shore on the East Coast (and the Great Lakes can be variable as can the Gulf of Mexico). I have in-mast furling so wireless for the wind gauge may be better but considering all options. I do not think there is a NMEA of any type on board as I haven't found a manual for one, and there isn't one in my cockpit consul or with the instrument readouts over my companionway.

Looking for a possible instrument suite to include depth, speed, temp, and wind. Don't intend to replace AP or chartplotter.

The owner of the boatyard advocated for Garmin because she says it's nearly impossible to get timely repairs from the Raymarine tech who is located in Washington State but Garmin is very responsive and timely.

Has anyone purchased or had work done on a Garmin, Raymarine, or BNG instrument package recently? If so, how do you like it? What made you choose one over the other? Did you have to replace anything else to make it work for you? Did you do the work yourself? If any repairs were necessary, were they covered under warranty? If you need tech assistance, how easy/hard is it to get?

 

[tinabastien]

Are you going up river first or up the coast first? In a sailboat, it is better to go up the coast and then down the rivers.

I will go up the coast and down the rivers.

 

[tinabastien]

You can use pretty much any knot log, depth, temp sensor and wired wind instrument you want. Go wired as the wireless may or may not talk to your CP. Most of the wired ones still talk NMEA 0183 not NMEA2000, so you’ll need a converter unless your CP has an input for NMEA0183 (most do not). As long as everything is connected to the same NMEA 2000 data backbone (through appropriate gateways) your AP and CP should be able to see and share all the data. Having said that I’ve heard of many people with different brands of AP’s and CP’s that can’t steer to wind direction even though they have all the data visible on their CP. I suspect is a function of how they connected wind and speed to the AP. I suggest calling the Raymarine rep in your area as that’s the key to what I think you’re trying to achieve. Your local chandlery should have their number. Good luck.

Thanks for the info. I don't know that I have any NMEA unit on board but will check in the CP and AP manuals and online to see which one(s) they are compatible with. As for contacting a Raymarine rep, you'd think there would be one in St Augustine but according to the owner of the boatyard that will be hauling my boat, the raymarine rep is in Washington State and very difficult to get tech support. Will also keep in mind that having all the instruments on board won't guarantee they will play nice together.

 

[tinabastien]

Correct, it has nothing to do with the CP. The Wind instrument must be talking directly with the AP. The OP wrote that he isn't much concerned with being able to use the AP to track wind, and that is understandable in narrow inland waters such as the Great Loop. However, in more open waters I think it's a very valuable function -- one I use frequently to optimize sail trim without having to adjust sail trim as much. I find that the boat keeps a higher average speed, and I don't need to tend sails for minor variations. Overall, the track meanders more but I think we generally arrive sooner considering the higher average boat speed (compared with sailing straighter to a magnetic bearing line).
Here's a short clip where I was doing that - the AP started beeping at last moments before the video ends, because the wind had shifted beyond the limits. The AP would still track the wind, but the beep is an alert to crew that there's been a major course change. (This is a Raymarine AP). All I did was press the button to acknowledge the shift and stop the beep.

Since I will likely be single handing a lot although I will hopefully also have experienced crew occasionally also, having instruments that work together will be helpful and staying on track even more so, especially since my boat is lucky to make 5 knots on average on good days and I'll be towing a dinghy too.

 

[Captain Larry-DH]

@tinabastien With your in-mast setup I think you should look at Raymarine Wireless Instruments, they will integrate seamlessly with your ST4000. You will need to add an inexpensive converter to connect the old SeaTalk to Seatalk-NG (the NG stands for "new generation" not what you''d think .) Raymarine service is in New Hampshire and I've always had good service from them, with reasonable hold times for US-based techs and reasonable repair turn-around times. I suspect the boatyard owner has the wrong contact, or maybe he is talking about a dealer?
Edit - I'm sure you can find a knowledgeable Raymarine dealer in your area.

 

[lemoiney]

@tinabastien Your NMEA is a communication protocol. Won’t have a manual or a device. It’s the language that all your instruments are talking on the sending wires. There are two protocols and several manufacturers have created their own proprietary cabling and naming for their versions. The original was NMEA0183. Raymarine called this Seatalk (and other things over the years). The latest is NMEA2000, which in Raymarine talk is called Seatalkng. The main difference between the two protocols is that NMEA2000 is bidirectional while 0183 is only on way. These are details that only matter in the way you want or need to connect. All you devices appear to be NMEA0183. So, suggest you find the gear you want at the price you like and then research the adapters you need to fit your new devices into your current network. You may need to bridge it Independantly into the CP and AP if they aren’t on the same backbone. A good chandlery should be able to help you with connectors. Map out everything you have now into a circuit diagram...that will help sort through the details. Do your research on each of your current devices and how they communicate and the details will eventually start to make sense.

 

[tinabastien]

@tinabastien Your NMEA is a communication protocol. Won’t have a manual or a device. It’s the language that all your instruments are talking on the sending wires. There are two protocols and several manufacturers have created their own proprietary cabling and naming for their versions. The original was NMEA0183. Raymarine called this Seatalk (and other things over the years). The latest is NMEA2000, which in Raymarine talk is called Seatalkng. The main difference between the two protocols is that NMEA2000 is bidirectional while 0183 is only on way. These are details that only matter in the way you want or need to connect. All you devices appear to be NMEA0183. So, suggest you find the gear you want at the price you like and then research the adapters you need to fit your new devices into your current network. You may need to bridge it Independantly into the CP and AP if they aren’t on the same backbone. A good chandlery should be able to help you with connectors. Map out everything you have now into a circuit diagram...that will help sort through the details. Do your research on each of your current devices and how they communicate and the details will eventually start to make sense.

Thank you, this is most helpful.

 

[glaufman]

If u r changing out your speedo sensor ... There's a newer style that works on ultrasound instead of he paddle wheels that constantly foul and clog. I don't have current experience with this newer sensor but it's in my upgrade plan.

 

[sailme88]

Acquired a Raymarine package from Hodges..$890.00 Depth/Log Wheel/Mast Head wind. Then got a Scanstrut 3 place pod for right around $200. Given the current circumstances, I should think a little internet surfing will pay off..

 

[dlochner]

If u r changing out your speedo sensor ... There's a newer style that works on ultrasound instead of he paddle wheels that constantly foul and clog. I don't have current experience with this newer sensor but it's in my upgrade plan.

They are attractive, however, not for the budget minded at about $1K.

Airmar UDST 800 Ultrasonic Triducer - NMEA 2000

Order the Airmar UDST 800 Ultrasonic Speed / Depth / Temp transducer online from P2 Marine at discount prices.

www.p2marine.com

 

[tinabastien]

Acquired a Raymarine package from Hodges..$890.00 Depth/Log Wheel/Mast Head wind. Then got a Scanstrut 3 place pod for right around $200. Given the current circumstances, I should think a little internet surfing will pay off..

Thanks for the suggestion, will look into it.

 

[tinabastien]

They are attractive, however, not for the budget minded at about $1K.

Airmar UDST 800 Ultrasonic Triducer - NMEA 2000

Order the Airmar UDST 800 Ultrasonic Speed / Depth / Temp transducer online from P2 Marine at discount prices.

www.p2marine.com

Asked a Garmin rep about an ultrasonic transducer, he couldn't find any info on it about compatibility with their systems so may be too early to incorporate into current systems.