Replacement Water Heaters

[Rick D]

Rather than tagging onto one of the old threads on this subject, I'll start another.

I have had five Seaward water heaters of the rectangular six gallon on two boats in 21 years. i expect the current one to fail sometime in the near future as well. I was considering an Isotemp Slim which I might be able to get in the space with a couple of modifications.

At a recent boat show, I found out that Torrid now makes one with the square footprint. This unit is clearly a step up on both quality and price from the Seaward unit. It has a glass-lined tank and replaceable elements with a five year guarantee. You can find info at MarineWaterHeaters.com

I think this may be a viable and more durable alternative to the Seaward unit. I know power boaters who swear by, not at, the Torrid heaters.

Here is a copy of an e-mail I sent them and their reply:

Subject: Water Heater Prepurchase Question

I am on my fifth Seaward six gallon rectangular water heater in 21 years and two boats. I see you now offer a compatible unit. Yours is glass lined tank looks to be better than the aluminum one in the Seaward unit. I was considering a Isotemp unit but it would require some cabinetry work; yours would not. They make a big deal of their insulation. I disassembled a Seaward unit and wasn't impressed with the insulation. Does your's differ? Thanks for your comments.

Rick Dinon


Rick,

Thank you for your inquiry on the Torrid Marine Water Heater. Firstly, I would like to convey that there are many Torrid Marine Water Heaters that are over 15 years old that are still in service. There have been customers purchasing replacement anodes who have 20 year old Water Heaters. The Glass Lined design when serviced annually with a simple flushing and anode inspection can last many years.
In regards to the insulation, we use a blanket fiberglass insulation, that fills the ¾” gap between the Glass Lined Tank and the Outer Jacket. We have not had any complaints as to the insulation value of our Water Heaters. In all honesty, Isotherm uses a very high quality foam filled, but we are experiencing quite a few boaters replacing the Isotherm due to failure of the vessel itself.
We look forward to assisting you in any way we can.

Regards,

Kevin M Gracey
Torrid Marine Water Heaters

 

[Steve Dion]

Rick:

One of the features of the Isotherm that I like is the low power requirements (750W) vs some of the others that are typically 1200-1500W. We are in a cooler climate Southern Cal. The lower wattage would help keep us from blowing breakers when we are running our space heaters.

The other advantage is the additional insulation. They are rated as one of the better units for heat retention. I also like the idea of the mixing valve being built into the unit which can help prevent scalding.

PS: Our original Seaward unit lasted for something like 8 - 10 years

 

[timvg]

Our water heater lasted 17 years. We finally replaced our original 1993 Seaward water heater about 6 months ago. Not sure what we did right, but we have lived aboard for 7 of the past 10 years. When on the boat, we take showers daily, wash dishes daily, etc.

We only replaced the water heater, when it started leaking.

 

[Rick D]

Yea, I know, I must be hard on them! I agree the 750 watt would be an advantage, but one of the people with me at the show thought it was a big disadvantage since it would take longer to heat and he also has a genset which he wants to load up when he's using it anyway. Even the Torrid guy says the insulation on the Isotherm is great.

PS: when I have to replace my home water heater, I'm going to buy it in NV. CA sourced heaters are about twice the cost now, and I can't figure out why. What could the state possibly require to clean up natural gas emissions???

 

[Alan]

Mine too!! I was emptying the water tank just this past weekend while motoring to the marina for a winter haul-out by running the faucet in the sink. In checking I discovered hot water in the bilge. Well, there's only one source for that, the hot water heater. My Seaward S600 is the original that came with the boat in '93. I just started shopping for its replacement. My thinking is if the original lasted 17 years the replacement should do the same.
This discussion is more than timely.

 

[Maine Sail]

Rick,

I spent my first career as a manufacturers rep in the HVAC & Hydronics industry. Over that period of time I represented products for over 40 manufacturers in that industry. I sold tanks from Bock, AO Smith, Heat Transfer Products/Superstor, Traingle Tube/Phase Three and K-Tam among others.

In short I would not touch a glass lined steel tank with a 10 foot pole, especially a Torrid. I know Peggy will wholeheartedly disagree with me on the Raritan but that is my take having worked in the industry and being they guy who did the RMA's, trouble shootin and field re-engineering. I have also had numerous square tanks fail and one Raritan. On the Raritan the steel tank rusted through from outside to inside.


There are only two or three tanks I would install in my own vessel. Iso-Temp, Superstor and possibly the new tanks from Volvo/QC. Glass lined steel tanks are the cheapest/dirtiest method of building a tank.

Fiberglass batting is also sub standard/sub par and really quite laughable in today's market. HTP/Superstor was using injected closed cell foam nearly 30 years ago on the original Superstor indirect fired water heaters just as they are today and just as most of the European manufacturers are including Iso-Temp. If it gets wet, and it can, it begins to wick and rot the outside of the STEEL tank. Even fiberglass batting over a stainless tank will eventually rot it if it gets wet, it will just take longer.

NO brand of water heater is immune from leaks. We called them "leakers" in the industry. It can happen to both good quality and low quality brands. In my experience the better built heaters always last the longest despite the occasional "leaker".

You many pay more for an Iso-Temp but you also get more.

Beyond that the fact that US tank manufacturers are not installing standard equipment tempering valves, on HX equipped heaters is DANGEROUS !!!!!!!

I am currently working with John Adey & the ABYC to hopefully get this changed. 180 degree + hot water is NEVER be allowed in a residential system so why should it be okay on a boat? I suspect this will help prevent scalding and burns to many folks with engine heated hot H2O. Iso-Temp takes the HIGH road and installs one as STANDARD EQUIPMENT the others do not......

Sorry for the rant but the US marine water heater market is about 40 years behind the times and it's frustrating to watch, especially having been in that industry...



More rant on non-tempered water heaters:


#1 Heat exchanger type water heaters, that heat off a running engine, like those from Torrid, Force Ten/Kumha, Raritan, Superstor etc.etc. are not supplied with a tempering valve. Iso-Temp does supply a built in tempering valve. Here's a photo: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/120602726.jpg This valve mixes incoming cold with outgoing hot water to set a pre-determined safe temperature for domestic water. Most builders are also NOT installing tempering valves. This is a plain and simple safety issue for scalds & burns and un-safe.

#2 These water heaters are connected directly to engines that can often exceed 180 degree operating temperatures. If the engine is run long enough the temp in the hot H20 tank will also approach the operating temp of the engine. Domestic on-board water should NEVER be allowed to reach anywhere even near 180 degrees!

#3 Settees and salons are set up on many boats so that small children can stand on them and operate the faucet, my three year old does and has. If that faucet contains 180 degree +/- water that child will be burned if the engine was run long enough.

Hose Mismatch:

#4 The supply & return hose often connected to these water heaters, I am specifically thinking of a problem I had with a Catalina, is usually PVC and max rated at 150F or less. When water heats pressure can build, most production boats do not have expansion tanks and the hose becomes your expansion. If hose gets to hot and softens enough it can be blown right off the hose barb. This actually happened on my own vessel in 2005 which was also a brand new boat in 2005. I had personally checked every hose clamp and replaced most with AWAB non-perf clamps so I know it was properly tightened. I have found no potable safe hose that can withstand 180 degrees. This is a gross mis-match and yet another safety issue relating to non-tempered hot water.

#5 If the safety T&P valve (temperature & pressure) blows at 210 degrees shouldn't the hose used on any water heater also be able to withstand at least 210 degrees water temp? If a tempering valve on the water heaters output is not used, this should be the case, no?

#6 If a tempering valve is used to regulate the water temp to stay below 130F or so, the piping to the inlet should be metal/solid to protect the hose from the high internal h20 heater temps. The hose down stream of the tempering valve could then be 150F max rated with no issues because it would be regulated to a lower temp by the mixing/tempering valve.

#7 Water heaters use T&P valves rated to blow at 210F. If an owner is experiencing an over heat and is in the engine room trouble shooting, where does that T&P hose terminate? It is quite possible an owner could be blasted by 210F water if that T&P blows off INTO the boat. I feel that T&P hoses should possibly terminate to an external vent just as fuel lines do or be installed to prevent scalding water from potentially coming in contact with a human and so that 210F water is not being blasted into the vessel in an unsafe manner where a human may be near. This should be done especially with engine supplied hot water.



These are some of the points I have communicated to both John Adey & Eric Johnson of ABYC and are being discussed in committee...

 

[Rick D]

Thanks Maine...

...that's helpful. But, having had the failures I have with the aluminum inner vessels on the Seawards, I'd sure take my chances with the new square Torrid. However, my first choice remains the Isotemp IF it will fit, and therein lies the rub... so many of the production boats were engineered for a six gallon Seaward or similarly dimensioned units in spaces that are not readily modified. So, if I want to replace, we need something that will drop in within the same footprint. The Volvo and Superstor won't fit, as will not the regular Isotherm. So, among the square same footprint units, the winner is ????

Actually, I'd just replace the stupid thing with another Seaward if I had the great experience these other guys have had. It may be the cycling. Lots of back and forths to the boat. The hot water cycles on at the dock maybe four time a month plus I use the boat a lot. I know many (most) of the MY guys leave their heaters on all the time. Intuitively, that would seem to stress them less, but I'm not comfortable doing it.

 

[sailaway78]

A different take

For several reasons, I could not justify the cost of a water heater with a built in heat exchanger. First and foremost, I stay out and gone on the boat more than most. Two or three months is not unusual for me. When out, I found that if I had hot water available, I didn't conserve nearly as much as I should. A hot shower just feels so good, but with no way to replenish water supply, I would run out of water pretty quick. Second thing in my reasoning, is the water doesn't get hot, unless actually motoring. Just running the engine to charge batteries, which I rarely do, would not heat water nearly enough to justify. So a little 6 gallon 110 volt, 1500 watt heater from HD or Lowes fills the bill. Cost is less than $150, they do every bit as good as others when tied up to shore power, where water is also available.

 

[FastOlson]

I replaced the original water heater tank about 8 years ago or so. The painted steel shell was rusting thru on the factory tank and the inner aluminum tank was full of white powdery oxide. Ick.
I went with a SS Atlantic brand, ss inner tank and also the shell. Still shines like new and we hope the inner tank is likewise. This a rectangular configuration. I have no idea if this company is still around or not.
We have the engine coolant coil and of course the AC heater element for times on shore power.

The now-departed/lamented fabulous Doc Freeman's in Seattle carried that line, and a host of other great marine products that lesser chandlers did not stock -- and still don't.

My experiences, FWIW.
And, whatever you do, do not put back a tank with an aluminum inner tank!

L

(1988 boat)

 

[Rick D]

Link To Seaward Dissection

I did a dissection of my last (leaking) seaward: http://hunter.sailboatowners.com/in...d=267&cat_id=43&aid=7390&page=article&mn=40.5

 

[zeehag]

i took out my square gonna-leak-if-not-already-leaking water heaters and use solar showers. they work--even get tooo hot sometimes--- -and is 100 percent fuel free. .LOL.....

 

[kloudie1]

The Seaward that came in the boat in 1985 is still in there and working fine. (MAN I hate to say that .. almost guarantees a problem !) The PO lived aboard in California until '91 so it got used a lot.. Since '91, I probably use it less than lots of folks .. It lives in a pretty low humidity location, sharing the space with the AC unit. The AC runs on a dehumidify cycle when I am not aboard.Floor stays dry so the insulation cannot get wet. I was sipping a little Sailor Jerry last night and thinking about the relatively short life that I hear quoted.. Then it dawned on me that many heaters are drained for the winter and exposed to air inside .. I don't think my tank has ever seen air inside since it was installed. Our fresh water is the city water which is a nice artesian well supplied water.
Rick, I guess yours doesn't get drained .. so It seems like there is something strange to have that many fail ?? I dunno.. Now back to the Sailor Jerry !

 

[Don12364]

Another Little Snag

Twice on my boat, after running the engine hard for about an hour, the water got hot enough to trip the overheat cutout on the immersion heater.
No problem?
You don't find out about this failure until an hour after the next time you hook up to shore power and wonder why there is no hot water.
Then it is a matter of removing screws in the cover over the immersion heater junction box (after disconnecting shore power) and putting your hand down the gap between hull and tank, feeling for the reset button and pressing it.

Okay if you are aware this can happen but a PITA if you don't.

 

[CharlieCobra]

We just installed a new Isotherm as a replacement for a rectangular shaped WH on a Canadian Sailcraft 36 Merlin last month. The owner loves it.

 

[Clark]

A related question re: a water heater . . .

What are the drawbacks - besides the obvious "no hot water when extended cruising" are there to bypass the engine lines to the water heater? We have very little need for hot water and it will soon be time to do maintenance on the coolant system (and probably the water heater). We have a Seaward as well.

 

[Tom Spohn]

In 2004 a Swedish magazine tested 7 water heaters. The Isotemp came in first place. Rather than examining the type of insulation they simply measured heat loss when turned off. The Isotemp was way ahead of the others. Practical Sailor also rates them first.

 

[Maine Sail]

In 2004 a Swedish magazine tested 7 water heaters. The Isotemp came in first place. Rather than examining the type of insulation they simply measured heat loss when turned off. The Isotemp was way ahead of the others. Practical Sailor also rates them first.

Mine will still put out quite warm water even after two days of sitting. The mixing valve can also add to the sense of a larger tank as it mixes cold and hot water to give you the right temp. This means you use less tank water thus giving it the appearance of it being a larger supply than than it really is. If you ran it off the engine, which can be 180 degrees, and the tempering valve is set for 110 degrees then you are getting more hot water at 110 blending cold and hot to make warm than if you opened the faucet at 180 degrees and also scalded yourself..

 

[Tom Spohn]

Here is the test link: http://www.indelmarineusa.com/pdf/Depliant_GB.pdf

 

[Rick D]

Time for Replacement

Well, I have heard my fresh water pump cycle occasionally at night, the water spigot screens are filling with deposits and I found some coolant by the water heater. From years of experience with failures, I know I am doomed and this Seaward is toast. I'm going to measure for the Isotemp Slim 5.2 gallon and hope it fits (after the boat gets out of the yard for it's bottom job). If not, I am going for the Torrid Cube. Both are about the same price. I don't have a rush; probably in spring.

 

[Rick D]

Update

The Isotherm Slimline 20 and Torrid Cube are available for the same price. I pulled my settee up to see if the Isotherm would fit. It will, but with a whole lot of rerouting of engine cooling and fresh water plumbing. I just don't feel like it and will go for the Torrid. It's the last one I'll be putting in altho I like the insulation of the Isotherm better (and Mainsail likes the mixing valve).

Meanwhile, I am spending some days pulling new transducer cables. I spent a day getting them the first 12'. I SO hate pulling wire....