I need to do some major repair to the cockpit sole and need to remove the pedestal. Has anyone done this? Any advice before I get started? Cockpit sole has several VERY soft spots. I'm going to cut out the top fiberglass ad replace the plywood core, return the top into position and fiberglass back into place. Any advice on this would be appreciated as well. Thanks! Keith
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Pedestal Removal and Cockpit Sole Core Repair - Cherubini Hunters
Keith: I have a 1980 Cherubini Hunter 36. Last summer I posted some info about my cockpit sole repair when another member asked (as you have) if anyone had undertaken the project. I have gone sailing on the boat about 50 times since the repair. No signs yet of any gaps or stress cracks around the repaired seam on the cockpit floor and the pedestal is firm and rigid instead of loose and swaying in the previously spongy sole. Also below is a copy of another post about my experience removing the Yacht Specialties Pedestal on my boat. Plywood Cockpit Core in Cherubini 1980 H36 ========================================== I did repair this past summer the cockpit sole section under/around the pedestal of my 1980 Cherubini H36. The core was a mosaic of individual plywood squares. The plywood itself was not rotted and was still firmly attached to the upper and lower fiberglass skins. But probably because of years of H20 ingress, the glue holding the plywood layers together had failed. Took several hours with a sharp wood chisel/hammer and then an orbital sander/grinder to get the all plywood off of the fiberglass. I'm a newbie to sailboat maintenance, so best to make your own assessment about the following which is how I went about my repair. I'm sure that others have better methods, but maybe you can find some nuggets of info that might help. I don't know if the Cherubini 37 cockpit sole is constructed similar to the Cherubini 36. On my 36, after removing the pedestal and other mounted hardware from the sole, I used a cutting bit on my dremel tool to neatly cut around the top layer of fiberglass at the interface of the non-skid and smooth surface. Then I was able to peel off the top section... (didn't come off easy). Cutting out the bottom from the limited space underneath the cockpit floor seemed just too difficult. I removed all the old plywood core and roughed up the new mating surfaces. I put duct tape over the holes into which the pedestal and grab rail bolts went, both on the top and bottom skins. Maybe not necessary, but from underneath, I attached several long/straight 2x4's using deck screws through the wood into the lower fiberglass skin. I did this to bring the lower skin to a reasonably flat condition since the pedestal and steering sheaves are mounted in this area. I cut off the portion of the screws that protruded up through the fiberglass. Later, after the epoxy work had been completed, from the bottom I was able remove the screws and then the 2x4's. I drilled lots of 1/2" holes in the replacement wood. Then I flooded the bottom with West Systems epoxy and layed in the new wood. Pressed it down until epoxy oozed up through the holes. Then flooded over the wood with more epoxy. Then brushed a layer of epoxy to the underside of the top skin to wet it. Then layed and centered the top skin on. Jiggled it around for a while so the epoxy would flow and adhere. An issue was deciding how much expoxy was needed to flood the space so that all plywood/fiberglass would be mated everywhere, but that lots expoxy wouldn't ooze out. The fact that the boat was not completely level also complicated. I put heavy stuff on the top skin to keep it compressed and level on the new core. After the expoxy had set up, but was not yet rock hard, I shaved back the high spots that had oozed out. I found that having some syringes on hand was useful to neatly fill the gaps where epoxy had not filled to the top. Since the orignal cut to remove the top was at the smooth/non-skid interface, and with careful shaving the excess epoxy, and sanding with a small block, and with two-part polyurethane paint to finish it all off, the repair is not readily noticeable. One item that I would vary if I ever do this repair again (hope not), is that I should have made the core area around the pedestal maybe about 1/8" thicker than at the edges of the repair area. After a rain or washdown, I have noted a small 1/16" deep puddle in the center around part of the pedestal base. If the center thickness hd been bowed up a bit, the water would run off and into the cockpit drain. regards, Rardi Yacht Specialties - I took Mine Apart ===================================== ..... this past summer I completely removed and reinstalled the Yacht Specialties pedestal on my 1980 Cherubini 36. The steering mechanism was operating fine, but its removal was necessary to repair the cockpit sole's water saturated wood core through which the pedestal is fastened. By the picture that Ian McGain posted, the mechanism looks to be the same that is on my boat. As already posted by Grizz, although Yacht Specialities is defunct, Edson is a source of info. On the web page Link submitted by author you can find a pdf file entitled, ".... Planning Installation and Maintenance Guide." Its for their newer products, but it looks like many of the principles are similar to the Yacht Specialties system. Hopefully your cable just became loose over time and finally it slipped out the quadrant cable channels or off the sheaves that angle the cable from the pedestal to the quadrant. But if you do need to take your system apart here's some info about my experience: I did find it useful take close-up photos and make notes of each section before disassembly so that I would have better chance of later remembering how to put it back together. I can’t give you step-by-step guidelines, since I didn’t retain my notes or pictures. But how it fit back together is rather logical. Took a few hours to remove the system and reassembly took me a full afternoon. You probably will be dealing only the the cable/chain/sprocket system, but if the whole pedestal needs be removed, throttle and transmission cables need to be removed/re-attached from the engine side as well. (About a loose cable, before my cockpit sole repair, my cable was somewhat looser than I would have expected as normal ... "not to loose, not too tight". Perhaps this was because as the wood core rotted/delaminated between the upper and lower fiber-glass skin, the pedestal was depressed downward from normal which loosened the tension? My tip-off about the core damage was that the top of the pedestal/wheel assembly would move from side an inch or two when pushed ... it didn't feel solid.) One thing that I did do wrong on my first refitting of the steering cable is that I hadn't noticed that the cable crosses over itself inside the pedestal. That is: If you are standing to the aft of the pedestal looking forward, the chain/cable that drops from the starboard side of wheel chain sprocket crosses over to port sheave that angles the vertical drop of cable back to the quadrant. The other side crosses from port to the starboard sheave. Also although its not readily noticeable, one of sheaves is a bit forward of the other. This is so the cable sides don’t rub against each other as they cross inside the pedestal. This routing inside my boat was hard to see on my boat, but I probably would have missed the cross-over even if it was right in front of me. So best as you can, try to observe and record the routing from the chain sprocket to the sheaves and also the routing quadrant/attach points before you take the steering chain/cable off. If the cable doesn’t cross over itself inside the pedestal, the steering works, but turn the wheel to port and the boat goes right and vice-versa. While I was at it, another item that caught my attention was the molded plastic housing into which the gear shift and throttle handles are set. This is the piece that Ian McGain photographed and was unable to remove the four screws from. I had better luck as my screws came out. While I was researching Yacht Specialties pedestals in preparation for my disassembly project, I read somewhere (probably deep in this forum’s archives) that people have had problems with the plastic housing breaking inside where the shift and throttle lever shafts and cables are anchored to the housing. The accounts cite that if a cable anchor or throttle handle breaks free inside, one might not be able to (say) shift out of forward into reverse. Or the throttle might get stuck at full (or idle). Or the broken-loose part could jam in the steering chain. Any of which would be a heart stopper for sure if the failure occurred (say) after committing to the final turn into a berth. When I had my part removed from the pedestal, I did discover the beginnings of a stress crack near one of the cable anchor points. The web references said that this pedestal part is no longer available and a casting shop would have to custom-make a replacement. I decided instead to reinforce all the potentially suspect areas by encasing/epoxying them with custom bent u-channels I made from stainless steel sheet metal. Then I poured in lots of West Systems epoxy all around to ensure that nothing could possibly ever break apart.
Keith: I have a 1980 Cherubini Hunter 36. Last summer I posted some info about my cockpit sole repair when another member asked (as you have) if anyone had undertaken the project. I have gone sailing on the boat about 50 times since the repair. No signs yet of any gaps or stress cracks around the repaired seam on the cockpit floor and the pedestal is firm and rigid instead of loose and swaying in the previously spongy sole. Also below is a copy of another post about my experience removing the Yacht Specialties Pedestal on my boat. Plywood Cockpit Core in Cherubini 1980 H36 ========================================== I did repair this past summer the cockpit sole section under/around the pedestal of my 1980 Cherubini H36. The core was a mosaic of individual plywood squares. The plywood itself was not rotted and was still firmly attached to the upper and lower fiberglass skins. But probably because of years of H20 ingress, the glue holding the plywood layers together had failed. Took several hours with a sharp wood chisel/hammer and then an orbital sander/grinder to get the all plywood off of the fiberglass. I'm a newbie to sailboat maintenance, so best to make your own assessment about the following which is how I went about my repair. I'm sure that others have better methods, but maybe you can find some nuggets of info that might help. I don't know if the Cherubini 37 cockpit sole is constructed similar to the Cherubini 36. On my 36, after removing the pedestal and other mounted hardware from the sole, I used a cutting bit on my dremel tool to neatly cut around the top layer of fiberglass at the interface of the non-skid and smooth surface. Then I was able to peel off the top section... (didn't come off easy). Cutting out the bottom from the limited space underneath the cockpit floor seemed just too difficult. I removed all the old plywood core and roughed up the new mating surfaces. I put duct tape over the holes into which the pedestal and grab rail bolts went, both on the top and bottom skins. Maybe not necessary, but from underneath, I attached several long/straight 2x4's using deck screws through the wood into the lower fiberglass skin. I did this to bring the lower skin to a reasonably flat condition since the pedestal and steering sheaves are mounted in this area. I cut off the portion of the screws that protruded up through the fiberglass. Later, after the epoxy work had been completed, from the bottom I was able remove the screws and then the 2x4's. I drilled lots of 1/2" holes in the replacement wood. Then I flooded the bottom with West Systems epoxy and layed in the new wood. Pressed it down until epoxy oozed up through the holes. Then flooded over the wood with more epoxy. Then brushed a layer of epoxy to the underside of the top skin to wet it. Then layed and centered the top skin on. Jiggled it around for a while so the epoxy would flow and adhere. An issue was deciding how much expoxy was needed to flood the space so that all plywood/fiberglass would be mated everywhere, but that lots expoxy wouldn't ooze out. The fact that the boat was not completely level also complicated. I put heavy stuff on the top skin to keep it compressed and level on the new core. After the expoxy had set up, but was not yet rock hard, I shaved back the high spots that had oozed out. I found that having some syringes on hand was useful to neatly fill the gaps where epoxy had not filled to the top. Since the orignal cut to remove the top was at the smooth/non-skid interface, and with careful shaving the excess epoxy, and sanding with a small block, and with two-part polyurethane paint to finish it all off, the repair is not readily noticeable. One item that I would vary if I ever do this repair again (hope not), is that I should have made the core area around the pedestal maybe about 1/8" thicker than at the edges of the repair area. After a rain or washdown, I have noted a small 1/16" deep puddle in the center around part of the pedestal base. If the center thickness hd been bowed up a bit, the water would run off and into the cockpit drain. regards, Rardi Yacht Specialties - I took Mine Apart ===================================== ..... this past summer I completely removed and reinstalled the Yacht Specialties pedestal on my 1980 Cherubini 36. The steering mechanism was operating fine, but its removal was necessary to repair the cockpit sole's water saturated wood core through which the pedestal is fastened. By the picture that Ian McGain posted, the mechanism looks to be the same that is on my boat. As already posted by Grizz, although Yacht Specialities is defunct, Edson is a source of info. On the web page Link submitted by author you can find a pdf file entitled, ".... Planning Installation and Maintenance Guide." Its for their newer products, but it looks like many of the principles are similar to the Yacht Specialties system. Hopefully your cable just became loose over time and finally it slipped out the quadrant cable channels or off the sheaves that angle the cable from the pedestal to the quadrant. But if you do need to take your system apart here's some info about my experience: I did find it useful take close-up photos and make notes of each section before disassembly so that I would have better chance of later remembering how to put it back together. I can’t give you step-by-step guidelines, since I didn’t retain my notes or pictures. But how it fit back together is rather logical. Took a few hours to remove the system and reassembly took me a full afternoon. You probably will be dealing only the the cable/chain/sprocket system, but if the whole pedestal needs be removed, throttle and transmission cables need to be removed/re-attached from the engine side as well. (About a loose cable, before my cockpit sole repair, my cable was somewhat looser than I would have expected as normal ... "not to loose, not too tight". Perhaps this was because as the wood core rotted/delaminated between the upper and lower fiber-glass skin, the pedestal was depressed downward from normal which loosened the tension? My tip-off about the core damage was that the top of the pedestal/wheel assembly would move from side an inch or two when pushed ... it didn't feel solid.) One thing that I did do wrong on my first refitting of the steering cable is that I hadn't noticed that the cable crosses over itself inside the pedestal. That is: If you are standing to the aft of the pedestal looking forward, the chain/cable that drops from the starboard side of wheel chain sprocket crosses over to port sheave that angles the vertical drop of cable back to the quadrant. The other side crosses from port to the starboard sheave. Also although its not readily noticeable, one of sheaves is a bit forward of the other. This is so the cable sides don’t rub against each other as they cross inside the pedestal. This routing inside my boat was hard to see on my boat, but I probably would have missed the cross-over even if it was right in front of me. So best as you can, try to observe and record the routing from the chain sprocket to the sheaves and also the routing quadrant/attach points before you take the steering chain/cable off. If the cable doesn’t cross over itself inside the pedestal, the steering works, but turn the wheel to port and the boat goes right and vice-versa. While I was at it, another item that caught my attention was the molded plastic housing into which the gear shift and throttle handles are set. This is the piece that Ian McGain photographed and was unable to remove the four screws from. I had better luck as my screws came out. While I was researching Yacht Specialties pedestals in preparation for my disassembly project, I read somewhere (probably deep in this forum’s archives) that people have had problems with the plastic housing breaking inside where the shift and throttle lever shafts and cables are anchored to the housing. The accounts cite that if a cable anchor or throttle handle breaks free inside, one might not be able to (say) shift out of forward into reverse. Or the throttle might get stuck at full (or idle). Or the broken-loose part could jam in the steering chain. Any of which would be a heart stopper for sure if the failure occurred (say) after committing to the final turn into a berth. When I had my part removed from the pedestal, I did discover the beginnings of a stress crack near one of the cable anchor points. The web references said that this pedestal part is no longer available and a casting shop would have to custom-make a replacement. I decided instead to reinforce all the potentially suspect areas by encasing/epoxying them with custom bent u-channels I made from stainless steel sheet metal. Then I poured in lots of West Systems epoxy all around to ensure that nothing could possibly ever break apart.
Thanks Radi
Rardi, Thanks for the detail and suggestions. Just the kind of feedback I was looking for. Keith
Rardi, Thanks for the detail and suggestions. Just the kind of feedback I was looking for. Keith
Manny, Yes there is plywood
...Initially tried to repair by drilling some 1 inch holes in the top layer of the sole and removing as much saturated wood as possible then filling the holes with resin, which helped for a couple of years. Definitely plywood in there. Keith
...Initially tried to repair by drilling some 1 inch holes in the top layer of the sole and removing as much saturated wood as possible then filling the holes with resin, which helped for a couple of years. Definitely plywood in there. Keith
plywood checkerboard
I have the exact same boat that had the same problem. I removed the top skin to find saturated plywood squares about 5x5 that pried easily off the bottom skin. Carefull not to damage the bottom skin ground it down replaced the plywood with foam core and reglassed the floor with vinylester resin and biaxle glass and matt. Finished with gelcoat applied with a roller to leave a dimpled surface for good nonskid. Jamestown Distributors has a great how to guide for repairing rotton cores.http://www.boatbuilding.net/article.pl?sid=06/01/24/1330205&mode=thread. Good luck
I have the exact same boat that had the same problem. I removed the top skin to find saturated plywood squares about 5x5 that pried easily off the bottom skin. Carefull not to damage the bottom skin ground it down replaced the plywood with foam core and reglassed the floor with vinylester resin and biaxle glass and matt. Finished with gelcoat applied with a roller to leave a dimpled surface for good nonskid. Jamestown Distributors has a great how to guide for repairing rotton cores.http://www.boatbuilding.net/article.pl?sid=06/01/24/1330205&mode=thread. Good luck
Hmmm....
I'll have to look at mine some more to see if there is a core... Maybe that is why I have some flexing, but there is no indication of any sponginess. Let us know how it works out and be sure to take pictures to post. Manny
I'll have to look at mine some more to see if there is a core... Maybe that is why I have some flexing, but there is no indication of any sponginess. Let us know how it works out and be sure to take pictures to post. Manny
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