Is it fair to say all boats are “not created equally” when it comes to reefing? It seems that the trend in some modern boat design is to light displacement, low draft, generous beam carried aft. I suspect that like our H260 they sail much better flat or under 15 degrees. To stay under 15 with shallow draft, light displacement and some dependency on form stability you must reef soon and then again. So reefing becomes an integral part of sail control. Full sail, first and even second reef can be encountered in a days sail. A more traditional design boat can take more heel maybe 30 degrees and therefore more wind before sailing performance is compromised. Sailing reefed is usually unnecessary.
Reefing your boat
- Thread starter Quoddy
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Couldn't agree more. My 1988 Oday 240 needs to be reefed a lot sooner than my 1972 C&C Redline 25 did. That being said, the Oday is a lot more fun on a light air day, which we get a lot of on Lake Ontario in the summer.
You're right about keeping heel at around 15 degrees for best performance on my Catalina 320. Although the boat can heel 30 degrees alright, it is not at its best performance and it makes for very uncomfortable sailing. Thank goodness for roller furling headsails and in-mast furling mains to make life easier.
Correct. If your SA/D ratio is close to or above 20, then you have to always be ready to de-power. For us its a three step process as the wind picks up:
1) Flatten the main with outhaul and backstay
2) Blade out the main with the traveler
3) Reef
1) Flatten the main with outhaul and backstay
2) Blade out the main with the traveler
3) Reef
Your 260 has plenty of ballast. If the ballast were four feet down from the surface of the water your boat would saill great. However, the ballast is spread at about 10 inches from the surface. Very simply there is not enough leverage for it to do a lot of good. Coupled with that there is no main sheet traveler. A traveler allows you to play the gusts more easily than the main sheet. I was not able to devise what I considered an acceptable method of installing a main sheet traveler on my Hunter 260. Same for the jib. No reasonable way to install tracks based on the way the blocks were installed. It would have become a major project.
Those are a couple of the main reasons I sold off my 260. Just not a "Sailors" boat, and nearly impossible to turn it into one. I got tired of compensating for shortcomings. As I have percieved for quite some time you are.
That's why I ended up with a Com-Pac Horizon cat. After hauling 750 miles the first time I launched it took 20 minutes mast up and in the water. Best ever with the 260 was 3 1/2 hours. In the blazing sun. The Horizon Sails like a dream. Designed and built by guys who like to sail. Makes me a happy sailor. Yes, I give up some space, but I'll take the 6 extra hours of sailing time.
Those are a couple of the main reasons I sold off my 260. Just not a "Sailors" boat, and nearly impossible to turn it into one. I got tired of compensating for shortcomings. As I have percieved for quite some time you are.
That's why I ended up with a Com-Pac Horizon cat. After hauling 750 miles the first time I launched it took 20 minutes mast up and in the water. Best ever with the 260 was 3 1/2 hours. In the blazing sun. The Horizon Sails like a dream. Designed and built by guys who like to sail. Makes me a happy sailor. Yes, I give up some space, but I'll take the 6 extra hours of sailing time.
Sam brings up a good point. A reef is a blunt instrument. When you use it, you give up all real notion of fine sail shaping. Much better to be able to use sail controls (vang, outhaul, backstay, cunningham) to shape and flatten the main to de-power it. I hadn't thought that the H260 might lack those controls.
It all depends on whether you're sailing upwind or downwind. For 'upwind', If you deep reef and dont INCREASE the amount of draft (easing the outhaul) you will be left with a increasingly flat sail shape which is a sail shape that is good only for 'speed sailing'. When you need to reef and are going upwind you need 'increased draft' to develop the *power* to enable you to 'punch' through waves. If you have a 'flat' reefed shape, you wont go much of anywhere upwind .... except slow. Better to go deeper reefed with LOTS of draft than 'first reefed' and 'flat as a sheet of plywood'.
Downwind, doesnt matter.
Downwind, doesnt matter.
To add to Rich's post: Here on SF Bay we have two different water conditions in hgih summer winds: an ebb causes short steep waves that require the POWER he notes, however, when there is a flood and the wind and waves are going in the same direction, the water can be quite flat when the winds are still high; in those conditions a flat sail works as his "speed sailing" notes.
Different conditions require different sail shaping. Even when reefed.
Different conditions require different sail shaping. Even when reefed.
Hey,
Interesting post. My comment is that along with the trend towards shallow draft and wide beam, etc, you should add furling mainsails. So, the ability to 'infinitely' reef the main should make that sort of a boat easier to adjust for conditions. Additionally, boats with furling mains seem to have smaller main sails, so again, the need to reef is reduced.
Regarding sailing at high angles of heel, even when you can do it because of the boat type, it really makes doing ANYTHING on the boat (making lunch, using the head, etc.) difficult. My wife doesn't mind high angles of heel, but it does get uncomfortable. On my boat, when the heel gets over 20 degrees it's time (maybe a little past) for a reef.
Barry
Interesting post. My comment is that along with the trend towards shallow draft and wide beam, etc, you should add furling mainsails. So, the ability to 'infinitely' reef the main should make that sort of a boat easier to adjust for conditions. Additionally, boats with furling mains seem to have smaller main sails, so again, the need to reef is reduced.
Regarding sailing at high angles of heel, even when you can do it because of the boat type, it really makes doing ANYTHING on the boat (making lunch, using the head, etc.) difficult. My wife doesn't mind high angles of heel, but it does get uncomfortable. On my boat, when the heel gets over 20 degrees it's time (maybe a little past) for a reef.
Barry
Water ballasted boats are created for one single purpose and that is the ability to have a rather large boat being able to shed its ballast for ease of trailering. All the other design compromises revolve around this premise. Those compromise drawbacks cannot be surpased by arguing around them, the boats are what they are. The choice is made at the time of purchase with the user priorities in mind.
Furling mainsails .... disagree.
Any 'furler' or 'furler/reefer' will roll-up the 'broad-seamed' portion of the sails panels - the portion of the sail that is 'curved' and enables the sail to have 'draft'. Broad-seaming usually is from the luff edge back to about 30-40% of the cord length. If sails were 'board flat', instead of having the bulk of their 'curvature' in front of 'mid-cord' then roller furling would be OK.
The 'best' you can typically 'reef' a sail with a furler is about 30% reduction max, as beyond 25-30% reduction, the sail then becomes 'baggy' in the middle sections *and* the broad-seamed sections are 'hidden' within the rolled-up sections .... leaving only the 'flat' (non-broadseamed) mid-cord and leech sections exposed. With an in-mast furler much beyond 20% reduction youre only going to have the flat sections of the panels exposed .... flat is the opposite that you want when reefed when 'beating'. With 'flat' you get a 'speed shape' (high gear), not the 'power' (low gear) that you sometimes need to 'punch' through chop and steep waves.
Roller-boom furling has a strategic advantage over 'in-mast' reefing - changeable/adjustable luff tension hence the 'position of maximum draft' ... but both are waaaaay inferior to a traditional 'slab reef' which can be so easily 'shaped' to *do it all*.
When do I reef?" ... of course when Im waaay beyond 'hull speed', etc. etc., but 'mostly' I reef when the boat begins to *skid* off to leeward .... I feel the increased helm pressure due to the 'skid' (rudder now beginning to go 'sideways' through the water) and can see that the turbulence wake from the rudder isnt any longer coming somewhat straight from the stern of the boat (any turbulence, etc. that is coming off the stern at greater than about >10°.
Any 'furler' or 'furler/reefer' will roll-up the 'broad-seamed' portion of the sails panels - the portion of the sail that is 'curved' and enables the sail to have 'draft'. Broad-seaming usually is from the luff edge back to about 30-40% of the cord length. If sails were 'board flat', instead of having the bulk of their 'curvature' in front of 'mid-cord' then roller furling would be OK.
The 'best' you can typically 'reef' a sail with a furler is about 30% reduction max, as beyond 25-30% reduction, the sail then becomes 'baggy' in the middle sections *and* the broad-seamed sections are 'hidden' within the rolled-up sections .... leaving only the 'flat' (non-broadseamed) mid-cord and leech sections exposed. With an in-mast furler much beyond 20% reduction youre only going to have the flat sections of the panels exposed .... flat is the opposite that you want when reefed when 'beating'. With 'flat' you get a 'speed shape' (high gear), not the 'power' (low gear) that you sometimes need to 'punch' through chop and steep waves.
Roller-boom furling has a strategic advantage over 'in-mast' reefing - changeable/adjustable luff tension hence the 'position of maximum draft' ... but both are waaaaay inferior to a traditional 'slab reef' which can be so easily 'shaped' to *do it all*.
When do I reef?" ... of course when Im waaay beyond 'hull speed', etc. etc., but 'mostly' I reef when the boat begins to *skid* off to leeward .... I feel the increased helm pressure due to the 'skid' (rudder now beginning to go 'sideways' through the water) and can see that the turbulence wake from the rudder isnt any longer coming somewhat straight from the stern of the boat (any turbulence, etc. that is coming off the stern at greater than about >10°.
There have been so many good comments I hardly have anything different to say other than the following. My inclination when sailing is to set the sail area and trim for the most prevalant wind speed and then use controls like vang, outhaul, traveler-to control it in the gusts. Emmanuel, like many modern boats sails better with less heel. Since I don't have a furling main I find that I have gotten much better with setting the outhaul and halyard tension correctly when reefing that I generally have good sail shape when reefed. I don't have a cunningham installed yet but if I have the boat still this spring it is on my list of to do's.
Regarding BarryL's comment about using the head (not trying to hijack the thread) when heeling excessively I find it to be a great advantage to have a boat like Emmanuel. The forward head is on port and faces aft so I use that head if we are heeled hard to starboard. The aft head is on starboard and faces aft and I use that one if heeled to port. Works great for me but I expect this is a personal preference as much as anything.
Regarding BarryL's comment about using the head (not trying to hijack the thread) when heeling excessively I find it to be a great advantage to have a boat like Emmanuel. The forward head is on port and faces aft so I use that head if we are heeled hard to starboard. The aft head is on starboard and faces aft and I use that one if heeled to port. Works great for me but I expect this is a personal preference as much as anything.
I find there is SO much extra power by the time we need to reef it is not much of and issue and at least on most of the boats i sail on draging a rudder through the water at and angle is kind of slow 
I know you won't like this but you might want to do a little reading on water ballasted and other internal ballasted boats.
http://www.eskimo.com/~mighetto/p06.htm
http://www.eskimo.com/~mighetto/p06.htm
No offense taken as the issue does not affect me one way or the other. This is a forum for production boats and it is a known fact that water ballast is used by production boat designers to be able to make a bigger and roomier boat while still maintaining ease of trailering. The end result is a success as the design benefits many trailer sailors. Fair winds and reef early my friend.
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