Don: When going downwind in a blow, I normally begin the reefing process by rolling up some genoa. When the genoa is fully furled and I'm sailing on the main alone, and the wind continuest rise,what is the best procedure at that point to reef the main? If I turn upwind, the boat (and crew) really come under a lot of pressure and stress. What do you and others do in this situation?
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On a Mason43 ketch
The strategy I came to employ was this: lose the mizzen first, obviously. Roll in the genoa so its clew was about even with the smallish staysail we often use in heavy air. That would make it more stable by eliminating the excess area that thrashed around in the shadow of the main, depower it in yaws and broaches, and bring the leads forward to not pull our tail around. Next was reefing the main for better sail balance and less sail area. Since it was a ketch, the rig already had a lower aspect than its more common sloop form; other Marconi masons said they went to a double reef quickly. Rigging a preventer is crucial here; the reduced main would then tolerate being by the lee occasionally when necessary. Finally we furled the genoa altogether and stayed under staysail and one reef. Thats as far as I've had to go in my experience so far, with about 30-35 kts downwind, sometimes surfing downwind and later parallel on a beam reach (while getting nailed by occasional breakers.) I think more than that, a second reef would be the next step, and perhaps then a decision between no main or no staysail. Obviously the final steps are storm trysail and jib, or bare poles and a speed reading from K. Adlard Coles book.
The strategy I came to employ was this: lose the mizzen first, obviously. Roll in the genoa so its clew was about even with the smallish staysail we often use in heavy air. That would make it more stable by eliminating the excess area that thrashed around in the shadow of the main, depower it in yaws and broaches, and bring the leads forward to not pull our tail around. Next was reefing the main for better sail balance and less sail area. Since it was a ketch, the rig already had a lower aspect than its more common sloop form; other Marconi masons said they went to a double reef quickly. Rigging a preventer is crucial here; the reduced main would then tolerate being by the lee occasionally when necessary. Finally we furled the genoa altogether and stayed under staysail and one reef. Thats as far as I've had to go in my experience so far, with about 30-35 kts downwind, sometimes surfing downwind and later parallel on a beam reach (while getting nailed by occasional breakers.) I think more than that, a second reef would be the next step, and perhaps then a decision between no main or no staysail. Obviously the final steps are storm trysail and jib, or bare poles and a speed reading from K. Adlard Coles book.
Its not Fun
Warren Its probably one of the worst situations to be in when sailing. Down wind and shes picking up all the time, and silly me never thought to reef down earlier. I sail a C380 with my partner Kerry. I know that Kerry is limited with what she can do to help. What I try to do is set my boat at an angle to slightly block the wind off the Genoa and reef it in, about half its size. I have a 150% so its bloody hard to reef unless I protect it. Then I start the motor engage forward and run at 2000 revs. I then get Kerry to bring her around slowly while Im pulling the Boom into the centre, by the time this has happened we are pointing into the wind so I Hit the Mainsail cleat and race up on deck to bring it in. Off course the Genoa is flapping its head off so we just bear away and go on our way. The secret is be reefed down before it gets to bad. Always keep some sail up, its better to keep sailing than bobbing around like a cork. Good Luck
Warren Its probably one of the worst situations to be in when sailing. Down wind and shes picking up all the time, and silly me never thought to reef down earlier. I sail a C380 with my partner Kerry. I know that Kerry is limited with what she can do to help. What I try to do is set my boat at an angle to slightly block the wind off the Genoa and reef it in, about half its size. I have a 150% so its bloody hard to reef unless I protect it. Then I start the motor engage forward and run at 2000 revs. I then get Kerry to bring her around slowly while Im pulling the Boom into the centre, by the time this has happened we are pointing into the wind so I Hit the Mainsail cleat and race up on deck to bring it in. Off course the Genoa is flapping its head off so we just bear away and go on our way. The secret is be reefed down before it gets to bad. Always keep some sail up, its better to keep sailing than bobbing around like a cork. Good Luck
Reef Downwind
Warren, That's a messy situation. We got caught in 25 knots on our cruise this summer with a full main up and it got exciting. Either Cruising World or Sail mangazine had a helpful hint in their August issue regarding this. Whoever wrote the article said they hated to round up into the wind to reef from an off the wind heading because of the increase in apparent wind, stress on the sails, rigging etc. They came up wih an alternative I'm anxious to try. They recommend letting out about three feet of halyard with the boat still off the wind. This will put the main into the spreaders. Winch in the reef line to pull to main off the spreaders. Then left out another three feet of halyard and winch in on the reef line, repeating the process until you have the main down as far as you want it. It makes sense. I'm anxious to try it for real. Hope this helps. Gary Wyngarden S/V Wanderlust h37.5
Warren, That's a messy situation. We got caught in 25 knots on our cruise this summer with a full main up and it got exciting. Either Cruising World or Sail mangazine had a helpful hint in their August issue regarding this. Whoever wrote the article said they hated to round up into the wind to reef from an off the wind heading because of the increase in apparent wind, stress on the sails, rigging etc. They came up wih an alternative I'm anxious to try. They recommend letting out about three feet of halyard with the boat still off the wind. This will put the main into the spreaders. Winch in the reef line to pull to main off the spreaders. Then left out another three feet of halyard and winch in on the reef line, repeating the process until you have the main down as far as you want it. It makes sense. I'm anxious to try it for real. Hope this helps. Gary Wyngarden S/V Wanderlust h37.5
Magazine Reference
See Sail Magazine, August, 2005, Page 37 under Cruising Tips. Gary Wyngarden S/V Wanderlust h37.5
See Sail Magazine, August, 2005, Page 37 under Cruising Tips. Gary Wyngarden S/V Wanderlust h37.5
Of course,
...reefing a main while heading downwind in heavy air is not possible. The easy way to deal with it is heave to. Once the boat is stabalized and nothing much is happening, you can ease out the mainsheet and reef the main with relative calm and with little stress. I would strongly suggest practicing reefing your main while hove to in lighter air to get the feel of the procedure. You'll be amazed how easy it is.
...reefing a main while heading downwind in heavy air is not possible. The easy way to deal with it is heave to. Once the boat is stabalized and nothing much is happening, you can ease out the mainsheet and reef the main with relative calm and with little stress. I would strongly suggest practicing reefing your main while hove to in lighter air to get the feel of the procedure. You'll be amazed how easy it is.
Warren: Personally, I would not try to reef sailing downwind. As I've stated many times, I'm just a common seaman and I always err to what I consider the easiest and safest way for me. Due to the position of the mainsail, while sailing downwind, I don't know how you would pull it off in the first place. God, I hate bringing this up as I was hoping it would die, but the way I would complete the mainsail reefing manoever is to "chicken gibe" the boat and get to a head to wind position and then reef. When everything is under control, fall off and resume your course. The big thing with reefing is that the instant you think you might need to reef - DO IT. Don't wait because things ain't going to get better. If you have a long way to travel downwind and you see things starting to kick up behind you, jibe and shorten sail. You can always throw off the reef a lot easier than throwing one in. The above is my personal opinion and the way I would handle the situation you describe.
Chronic late reefer
Thank you all for the advice. As you tell, I suffer from latereferitis....but I'm working on it. The idea put forth to lower the halyard, lay the sail up on the spreaders, and then reef it a bit sounds like its worth a try. Although on my boat, with the B&R rig threatening the main, I'm not sure it would work. I'm also not sure the plastic sail slugs would budge an inch with the sail off center at a big angle. Has any ever tried this: going dead down wind, turn on the engine and then center the boom and haul in the mainsheet tight. The helsman must maintain this position, that is, no pressure on the sail. Then try to drop the sail and reef it all the while continuing to go dead down wind. Would that work?
Thank you all for the advice. As you tell, I suffer from latereferitis....but I'm working on it. The idea put forth to lower the halyard, lay the sail up on the spreaders, and then reef it a bit sounds like its worth a try. Although on my boat, with the B&R rig threatening the main, I'm not sure it would work. I'm also not sure the plastic sail slugs would budge an inch with the sail off center at a big angle. Has any ever tried this: going dead down wind, turn on the engine and then center the boom and haul in the mainsheet tight. The helsman must maintain this position, that is, no pressure on the sail. Then try to drop the sail and reef it all the while continuing to go dead down wind. Would that work?
Chronic late reefer
Warren: My first though was I don't know if centering the main and turning on the engine would work. I thought I doubt it because the wind would be blowing directly at the sail and it would be flopping all over the place but the more I try to picture the situation in my mind there is a chance you might pull it off. I guess you could think of it as a head to wind in reverse Personally, I'd chicken gibe the boat, slap in the reef and be on my way. Very little muss or fuss.
Warren: My first though was I don't know if centering the main and turning on the engine would work. I thought I doubt it because the wind would be blowing directly at the sail and it would be flopping all over the place but the more I try to picture the situation in my mind there is a chance you might pull it off. I guess you could think of it as a head to wind in reverse Personally, I'd chicken gibe the boat, slap in the reef and be on my way. Very little muss or fuss.
Coming head-to-wind
Warren - You started out by saying that turning into the wind wasn't a good option for you: "If I turn upwind, the boat (and crew) really come under a lot of pressure and stress". Yet, most folks are still making suggestions that involve coming head-to-wind. I haven't been sailing long but I was taught the same: come around and heave-to (unfurling the jib if need be), then reef the main. Or just get head-to-wind and drop the main, period. Can you elaborate a bit more about why you don't like to turn around? I'm curious, especially since the others still say to do this. What is the hard part? Does the boat heel lots during the first 90 degrees or so of turn until the main starts to luff? Waves a problem? Something once you actually get around head-to-wind? I've never been caught going downwind in a blow, but I have wondered about how the boat would behave through that turn around into the wind. ...RickM...
Warren - You started out by saying that turning into the wind wasn't a good option for you: "If I turn upwind, the boat (and crew) really come under a lot of pressure and stress". Yet, most folks are still making suggestions that involve coming head-to-wind. I haven't been sailing long but I was taught the same: come around and heave-to (unfurling the jib if need be), then reef the main. Or just get head-to-wind and drop the main, period. Can you elaborate a bit more about why you don't like to turn around? I'm curious, especially since the others still say to do this. What is the hard part? Does the boat heel lots during the first 90 degrees or so of turn until the main starts to luff? Waves a problem? Something once you actually get around head-to-wind? I've never been caught going downwind in a blow, but I have wondered about how the boat would behave through that turn around into the wind. ...RickM...
Rick
Here's the catch. Let's say you are sailing downwind in 25 knots of true wind and we'll say your boat speed is six knots through the water. That makes the apparent wind 19 knots. And let's also say that the 25 knots of true wind have built up a five-foot chop. As you make the turn you to put another reef in your main, you have considerable centrifugal force just from the (imagine if you made a 180 degree turn under power in flat water). Then your turn is at least initially going to put you beam to those waves that will try to knock you down. Then the apparent wind is going to increase from 19 knots to 31 knots(63%)as you round up to a close hauled position. The force of the wind increases as the square of the increase so wind force on your sail is up more than 2.5 times (1.63 times 1.63). Add together the centrifugal force of the turn, impact of the waves, and increase in wind force and things get really nasty. Been there, done that, don't like it. 1. Reef early 2. That's why I want to try the Sail magazine idea to try to reef without heading up. Hope this helps. Gary Wyngarden S/V Wanderlust h37.5
Here's the catch. Let's say you are sailing downwind in 25 knots of true wind and we'll say your boat speed is six knots through the water. That makes the apparent wind 19 knots. And let's also say that the 25 knots of true wind have built up a five-foot chop. As you make the turn you to put another reef in your main, you have considerable centrifugal force just from the (imagine if you made a 180 degree turn under power in flat water). Then your turn is at least initially going to put you beam to those waves that will try to knock you down. Then the apparent wind is going to increase from 19 knots to 31 knots(63%)as you round up to a close hauled position. The force of the wind increases as the square of the increase so wind force on your sail is up more than 2.5 times (1.63 times 1.63). Add together the centrifugal force of the turn, impact of the waves, and increase in wind force and things get really nasty. Been there, done that, don't like it. 1. Reef early 2. That's why I want to try the Sail magazine idea to try to reef without heading up. Hope this helps. Gary Wyngarden S/V Wanderlust h37.5
Don -
Don - Gary verified my guesses and more but you describe the turn to wind fairly casually. Is it just that you don't get winds and waves that strong where you sail? And/or, you've already reefed in the first place? 25 knot winds usually only make 6 inch (yes inches!) waves on my lake. Some day, some how, I need to build up realistic big water (and big boat) sailing skills. ...RickM...
Don - Gary verified my guesses and more but you describe the turn to wind fairly casually. Is it just that you don't get winds and waves that strong where you sail? And/or, you've already reefed in the first place? 25 knot winds usually only make 6 inch (yes inches!) waves on my lake. Some day, some how, I need to build up realistic big water (and big boat) sailing skills. ...RickM...
Reefing on a reach
I can't vouch for reefing going down wind in 25 knots, But I know I've done it on a reach with wind pushing 20 knots. I turned down to a broad reach with the boom vang on and the main sheet dropped below centerline; then sheeted the 135 in untill it almost touches the main. Head up alittle and the back wind from the Genoa will keep a bubble in the front of the main and allow you to drop the halyard to its pre marked reefing point. Crank in the reef line with the sail still backwinded and lastly, tighten the halyard.
I can't vouch for reefing going down wind in 25 knots, But I know I've done it on a reach with wind pushing 20 knots. I turned down to a broad reach with the boom vang on and the main sheet dropped below centerline; then sheeted the 135 in untill it almost touches the main. Head up alittle and the back wind from the Genoa will keep a bubble in the front of the main and allow you to drop the halyard to its pre marked reefing point. Crank in the reef line with the sail still backwinded and lastly, tighten the halyard.
Don
Rick: Occasionally, it does blow like stink down here but it does not matter how hard it is blowing because actually the harder it blows the easier the manoever. At the C30 Nationals in Santa Cruz a couple of years ago it was blowing over 40 knots with gusts up to 45. We did not have a reef in because the guys chasing us didn't and we were fighting for a first (ended up 2nd). Our crew comes form all over the US to race the locals at these events and I can honestly say we know what we are doing. One C30 was dismasted and two other lost their mains. We could have jibed the boat easily and we did during the race but while waiting for the start and just fooling around we chicken jibed. It is easier on the equiptment, the crew and less stressful, but like everything in life - to each his own. My only caution to mates following this thread who have not tried the manoevers is just be sure you think everything through before you try some of the stuff being suggested - or have a big bankroll to replace stuff. Also, check your marine policy, especially the liability section. On the liability subject, I would not carry less than $500,000. That advise comes from a retired insurance VP - me.
Rick: Occasionally, it does blow like stink down here but it does not matter how hard it is blowing because actually the harder it blows the easier the manoever. At the C30 Nationals in Santa Cruz a couple of years ago it was blowing over 40 knots with gusts up to 45. We did not have a reef in because the guys chasing us didn't and we were fighting for a first (ended up 2nd). Our crew comes form all over the US to race the locals at these events and I can honestly say we know what we are doing. One C30 was dismasted and two other lost their mains. We could have jibed the boat easily and we did during the race but while waiting for the start and just fooling around we chicken jibed. It is easier on the equiptment, the crew and less stressful, but like everything in life - to each his own. My only caution to mates following this thread who have not tried the manoevers is just be sure you think everything through before you try some of the stuff being suggested - or have a big bankroll to replace stuff. Also, check your marine policy, especially the liability section. On the liability subject, I would not carry less than $500,000. That advise comes from a retired insurance VP - me.
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