Please forgive a stupid question from a fair weather sailor. When the main is reefed, what exactly does one do with the extra material now hanging from the boom? Just run a thin line through the small holes in the middle of the sail (at the same height as the reef points) and tie it to gather it closer to the boom?
reefed main
- Thread starter Ben16737
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slides
In the same manner- what does one do with the sail slide? I assume that you must remove them from the track?
In the same manner- what does one do with the sail slide? I assume that you must remove them from the track?
What not to do
As a new sailor, only input I have here is, I have read (not sure where, because I have been reading a lot of how to's) that you can tie the extra stuf up, but do not tie it to the boom. On my 170, I have smaller holes along the foot of the sail that I can tie the excees up a little, but I do not attach it to the boom. I don't know why not, but I accept others advice not to. About time I started listening to other people.
As a new sailor, only input I have here is, I have read (not sure where, because I have been reading a lot of how to's) that you can tie the extra stuf up, but do not tie it to the boom. On my 170, I have smaller holes along the foot of the sail that I can tie the excees up a little, but I do not attach it to the boom. I don't know why not, but I accept others advice not to. About time I started listening to other people.
you go it
That's the traditional way to tie up a reef, be sure to use a "reef knot". Do not put any stress on the sail just gather up the loose sail and tie it to the boom. I like the look of the reef lines on the sail and tie knots on both sides of the cringle to keep the reef lines on the sail and ready to be used. Other sailors don't like these tie-up lines and just reef at the ends. It is all up to you.
That's the traditional way to tie up a reef, be sure to use a "reef knot". Do not put any stress on the sail just gather up the loose sail and tie it to the boom. I like the look of the reef lines on the sail and tie knots on both sides of the cringle to keep the reef lines on the sail and ready to be used. Other sailors don't like these tie-up lines and just reef at the ends. It is all up to you.
reefing
I own/sail a Hunter 260. When I reef the main, I simply tie the loose material to the boom but I don't remove any of the slides from the mast because if/when the wind dies down, it's very easy to shake out the reef by easying the main halyard out just enough to disconnect the main from the ram's horn and raise the main completely. Biggest lesson I learned, the hard way, is that you can't use the reefing cringle to secure the sail when reefing. Any pressure on the reefing cringle will tear the sail. It's all secured by the reefing line and the ram's horn on my Hunter 260. Tim
I own/sail a Hunter 260. When I reef the main, I simply tie the loose material to the boom but I don't remove any of the slides from the mast because if/when the wind dies down, it's very easy to shake out the reef by easying the main halyard out just enough to disconnect the main from the ram's horn and raise the main completely. Biggest lesson I learned, the hard way, is that you can't use the reefing cringle to secure the sail when reefing. Any pressure on the reefing cringle will tear the sail. It's all secured by the reefing line and the ram's horn on my Hunter 260. Tim
reef knot?
Thanks, Paul. I hate posting just to admit ignorance, but what's a reef knot? I assume it's a knot that can be released easily when you want to take the reef back out. And does anybody else have info/viewpoints on whether I should avoid tieing the sail to the boom, instead of just to itself? I figured that if anything, you SHOULD tie to the boom, so that the weight of the reefed portion of sail wouldn't affect the shape of the sail that is hoisted.
Thanks, Paul. I hate posting just to admit ignorance, but what's a reef knot? I assume it's a knot that can be released easily when you want to take the reef back out. And does anybody else have info/viewpoints on whether I should avoid tieing the sail to the boom, instead of just to itself? I figured that if anything, you SHOULD tie to the boom, so that the weight of the reefed portion of sail wouldn't affect the shape of the sail that is hoisted.
Reef knot = Square knot
Reef knot is just another name for a square knot. If your main is loose footed (as mine is)or has slides on the boom, just gather the sail up in the reef ties and tie loosely. If you have a bolt rope along the foot you have no choice but to include the boom in the reef ties. The main thing here is to tie it loosely. Sailors sometimes make the mistaken assumption that the reef ties are there to hold the sail down and should be tight. They are not strong enough to take the full force of the wind on the sails and will tear the sail if they are subject to that kind of force. They are there ONLY to neaten things up. Tom s/v Orion's Child
Reef knot is just another name for a square knot. If your main is loose footed (as mine is)or has slides on the boom, just gather the sail up in the reef ties and tie loosely. If you have a bolt rope along the foot you have no choice but to include the boom in the reef ties. The main thing here is to tie it loosely. Sailors sometimes make the mistaken assumption that the reef ties are there to hold the sail down and should be tight. They are not strong enough to take the full force of the wind on the sails and will tear the sail if they are subject to that kind of force. They are there ONLY to neaten things up. Tom s/v Orion's Child
bolt rope
Now I've got it; thanks everybody. My main has a bolt rope, and that was causing part of my confusion - I couldn't think of any way to avoid having the line go around the boom. Sometimes I forget that other boats are loose footed.
Now I've got it; thanks everybody. My main has a bolt rope, and that was causing part of my confusion - I couldn't think of any way to avoid having the line go around the boom. Sometimes I forget that other boats are loose footed.
nothing
Hello, On my boat, I don't do anything with the extra sail material. It sort of folds itself and just hangs alongside the boom. I used to tie in the extra material with small ties, but doing nothing is easier and just as effective. If you want to see a short document I wrote on how my boat is set up for single line reefing, look here http://capitalyachts.info/single_line_reefing.pdf Barry
Hello, On my boat, I don't do anything with the extra sail material. It sort of folds itself and just hangs alongside the boom. I used to tie in the extra material with small ties, but doing nothing is easier and just as effective. If you want to see a short document I wrote on how my boat is set up for single line reefing, look here http://capitalyachts.info/single_line_reefing.pdf Barry
more questions
Thanks again for all the responses. Last weekend, we went out in some heavy wind and I decided to try out my newfound reefing knowledge. Good learning experience, but didn't really work out as planned and now I have another question. Here's what happened: I lowered the main enough to hook the reefing tack to the horn on the mast, and re-tightened the halyard. Then pulled in the reefing line on the boom to draw the clew down to the boom. That's the part that didn't work as I envisioned it. While the tack of the sail was at boom level, the clew never got that low, no matter how much I tightened that reefing line. This resulted in a weird, baggy sail shape. I couldn't flatten it, and although the conditions really called for a reef, we were better off raising the main fully so that I could flatten it. A major part of this problem is simply that my main is old and baggy - no way to get around that. But beyond that problem, what tricks are there to flatten a reefed main? Or is my reefing line not rigged properly? It goes from a pulley forward on the boom, through the boom to a pulley on the aft end of the boom, up through the reefing clew and then secured back to the aft end of the boom.
Thanks again for all the responses. Last weekend, we went out in some heavy wind and I decided to try out my newfound reefing knowledge. Good learning experience, but didn't really work out as planned and now I have another question. Here's what happened: I lowered the main enough to hook the reefing tack to the horn on the mast, and re-tightened the halyard. Then pulled in the reefing line on the boom to draw the clew down to the boom. That's the part that didn't work as I envisioned it. While the tack of the sail was at boom level, the clew never got that low, no matter how much I tightened that reefing line. This resulted in a weird, baggy sail shape. I couldn't flatten it, and although the conditions really called for a reef, we were better off raising the main fully so that I could flatten it. A major part of this problem is simply that my main is old and baggy - no way to get around that. But beyond that problem, what tricks are there to flatten a reefed main? Or is my reefing line not rigged properly? It goes from a pulley forward on the boom, through the boom to a pulley on the aft end of the boom, up through the reefing clew and then secured back to the aft end of the boom.
Move the end of your reefing line
Instead of tying the end back to the end of the boom again, try to tie it right below, or just a little bit back of where the reef clew cringle comes on the boom when it's down all the way, the way you'd want it. This will pull the sail DOWN, while the other half of the purchase pulls it back.
Instead of tying the end back to the end of the boom again, try to tie it right below, or just a little bit back of where the reef clew cringle comes on the boom when it's down all the way, the way you'd want it. This will pull the sail DOWN, while the other half of the purchase pulls it back.
Adding to PaulK's response re: Ben'smore questions
As the line comes through the pulley at the aft end of the boom, run it up through the reef point on the sail and continue the line down vertically and tie it off to the boom at a point below the reef point. As you pull on the line from the fore end of the boom, the purchase draws the reef point directly down vertically to meet up with the knotted end of the line.
As the line comes through the pulley at the aft end of the boom, run it up through the reef point on the sail and continue the line down vertically and tie it off to the boom at a point below the reef point. As you pull on the line from the fore end of the boom, the purchase draws the reef point directly down vertically to meet up with the knotted end of the line.
Ben, I have the same experience ...
The second paragraph in my post #8 describes how I deal with it. I have questioned whether or not this is advisable but haven't seen a response. As the last two posters describe, I have not been able to flatten the sail satisfactorily without attaching the outhaul in the end. I have not tried it the way Vern describes ... I might try it that way to see if it works for us!
The second paragraph in my post #8 describes how I deal with it. I have questioned whether or not this is advisable but haven't seen a response. As the last two posters describe, I have not been able to flatten the sail satisfactorily without attaching the outhaul in the end. I have not tried it the way Vern describes ... I might try it that way to see if it works for us!
What if you don't use the rams horn?
On my 28' Sunstar, I reef the main simply by releasing the halyard and pulling in the reefing line as far as it can go (single reefing line tightens both tack and clew at the same time), then re-tighten the halyard. I can do this from the cockpit and the loose sail at the foot seems to stay very neatly held in place by the reefing line itself at the tack and clew. I have the short cringle lines on the first reef cringles but not on the second and I usually tie them off with reef knots but not always. Until I read this thread I had forgotten about the rams horn, which I used the first time or two that I reefed but haven't since. The big advantage to not using it is, of course, not having to go forward to the mast but being able to do it all from the cockpit. The reefing points on the luff and leech that the reefing line goes through appear to be very well reinforced (unlike the cringles of course). The reefing lines are held by a jam cleat just forward of the companionway. Does this sound like a strong enough working reef, or am I asking for trouble by not using the rams horn?
On my 28' Sunstar, I reef the main simply by releasing the halyard and pulling in the reefing line as far as it can go (single reefing line tightens both tack and clew at the same time), then re-tighten the halyard. I can do this from the cockpit and the loose sail at the foot seems to stay very neatly held in place by the reefing line itself at the tack and clew. I have the short cringle lines on the first reef cringles but not on the second and I usually tie them off with reef knots but not always. Until I read this thread I had forgotten about the rams horn, which I used the first time or two that I reefed but haven't since. The big advantage to not using it is, of course, not having to go forward to the mast but being able to do it all from the cockpit. The reefing points on the luff and leech that the reefing line goes through appear to be very well reinforced (unlike the cringles of course). The reefing lines are held by a jam cleat just forward of the companionway. Does this sound like a strong enough working reef, or am I asking for trouble by not using the rams horn?
Two other things to try
If your main sheet is too tight as you try to reef, you are dragging the boom straight down and away from the new clew (aft reef point). Ease off on the sheet to allow the boom to rise. If that doesn't do the job, you can even try hauling up the topping lift a few inches to raise the boom, until you have the reef point down to the boom. Then release the tension on the topping lift to tighten up the leech.
If your main sheet is too tight as you try to reef, you are dragging the boom straight down and away from the new clew (aft reef point). Ease off on the sheet to allow the boom to rise. If that doesn't do the job, you can even try hauling up the topping lift a few inches to raise the boom, until you have the reef point down to the boom. Then release the tension on the topping lift to tighten up the leech.
A couple of comments on reefing
Reefing is pretty much the same for most boats, but every boat has its own "wrinkles". For example, when reefing the H23 mainsail, the lowermost sail slug has to be moved from above the gate in the sail track to below it. You need THREE sail stops for the H23, one above the gate, one below the gate and a spare for when you drop one of the others while wrestling with the sail in the breeze. When reefing, I ease the mainsheet and vang, tension the topping lift, then drop the sail until I can hook the tack cringle over the ram's horn, including the sail stop juggle. Next, I tension the reefing line, which on my boat only controls the clew of the sail. With the halyard slack, the sail is so loose that the reefing line (it should be rigged to pull the clew down and aft as PaulK and Vern mentioned) tensions the new "foot" of the sail properly. Then I rehoist the sail, tension the halyard, ease the topping lift, sheet in and I'm gone. This procedure works on the stock H23 because all the sail controls are at the mast. If your boat is rigged differently, e.g., with halyards run back to the cockpit or single-line reefing, then you have to find a procedure that works for you. Practice reefing on nice days until you can do it without thinking. It will pay off when the weather turns bad. Good luck and safe sailing. Peter H23 "Raven"
Reefing is pretty much the same for most boats, but every boat has its own "wrinkles". For example, when reefing the H23 mainsail, the lowermost sail slug has to be moved from above the gate in the sail track to below it. You need THREE sail stops for the H23, one above the gate, one below the gate and a spare for when you drop one of the others while wrestling with the sail in the breeze. When reefing, I ease the mainsheet and vang, tension the topping lift, then drop the sail until I can hook the tack cringle over the ram's horn, including the sail stop juggle. Next, I tension the reefing line, which on my boat only controls the clew of the sail. With the halyard slack, the sail is so loose that the reefing line (it should be rigged to pull the clew down and aft as PaulK and Vern mentioned) tensions the new "foot" of the sail properly. Then I rehoist the sail, tension the halyard, ease the topping lift, sheet in and I'm gone. This procedure works on the stock H23 because all the sail controls are at the mast. If your boat is rigged differently, e.g., with halyards run back to the cockpit or single-line reefing, then you have to find a procedure that works for you. Practice reefing on nice days until you can do it without thinking. It will pay off when the weather turns bad. Good luck and safe sailing. Peter H23 "Raven"
Reefing, foot tension, ram's horns
A reefed sail should be very flat. Part of the reefing process it to make sure the new "foot" of the sail is tight. When the sail is full, the outhaul controls the depth of the foot. It can do so because the tack of the sail is secured at the mast end of the boom. The reefing system must also provide a secure reef tack. The easiest way to to this is with a ram's horn (also called a reef hook). IF (a big if) the sail's reef tack is positioned properly, the reef hook at the gooseneck will allow the reef clew line to pull the foot out and down to create a flat foot at the reef point. The biggest problem with getting a good reefed shape is reef tack placement not tension or placement of the clew line. A 1" error in reef tack placement can make a reef hook useless and no amount of tension on the clew line will flatten the foot. If you have to move the outhaul line up to the reef clew to flatten the sail, I'll bet money that the problem is poor placement of the reef tack cringle. Properly setup, a single line system can give a good reefed shape. The best ones have a jammer at the gooseneck so the tension in the reef line does not change with sail trim. Double line systems, with one reef tack line and a separate reef clew line are easy to setup since they do not depend on the sailmaker getting the reef tack point exactly right. The drawback to these systems is that they rely on fairleads on the mast to get the right angle to pull the reef tack into position. The tack line tends to bind the sail at the gooseneck and can cause chafe as the boom is trimmed in and out. Most sailmakers don't get the reef tack point right the first time. It would almost make sense to have the reef tack cringles added after the sail is built so it can be placed in exactly the right place for the reefing system *on your boat* to work correctly. This is understandable, most sailmakers are more concerned about the shape of the full sail and most racers hardly ever reef (they just add more crew on heavy air days). Before you sign the final check for that new main (after your sailmaker has gone sailing with you to make sure the sail sets and trims properly), have the sailmaker put in a reef (or 2 or 3) to verify that they did their homework and got the reef cringles right.
A reefed sail should be very flat. Part of the reefing process it to make sure the new "foot" of the sail is tight. When the sail is full, the outhaul controls the depth of the foot. It can do so because the tack of the sail is secured at the mast end of the boom. The reefing system must also provide a secure reef tack. The easiest way to to this is with a ram's horn (also called a reef hook). IF (a big if) the sail's reef tack is positioned properly, the reef hook at the gooseneck will allow the reef clew line to pull the foot out and down to create a flat foot at the reef point. The biggest problem with getting a good reefed shape is reef tack placement not tension or placement of the clew line. A 1" error in reef tack placement can make a reef hook useless and no amount of tension on the clew line will flatten the foot. If you have to move the outhaul line up to the reef clew to flatten the sail, I'll bet money that the problem is poor placement of the reef tack cringle. Properly setup, a single line system can give a good reefed shape. The best ones have a jammer at the gooseneck so the tension in the reef line does not change with sail trim. Double line systems, with one reef tack line and a separate reef clew line are easy to setup since they do not depend on the sailmaker getting the reef tack point exactly right. The drawback to these systems is that they rely on fairleads on the mast to get the right angle to pull the reef tack into position. The tack line tends to bind the sail at the gooseneck and can cause chafe as the boom is trimmed in and out. Most sailmakers don't get the reef tack point right the first time. It would almost make sense to have the reef tack cringles added after the sail is built so it can be placed in exactly the right place for the reefing system *on your boat* to work correctly. This is understandable, most sailmakers are more concerned about the shape of the full sail and most racers hardly ever reef (they just add more crew on heavy air days). Before you sign the final check for that new main (after your sailmaker has gone sailing with you to make sure the sail sets and trims properly), have the sailmaker put in a reef (or 2 or 3) to verify that they did their homework and got the reef cringles right.
lots of info, thanks
Peter hit the nail on the head in post #16 - I never got around to practicing on light air days. My usual crew has no interest in it. They are either not interested in technical aspects of sailing, or they are racers who think "reef" is the dirtiest word ever spoken. I'm just going to have to be a hard-ass captain every so often, and say that if you want a free ride you're gonna have to help me figure a few things out. PaulK & Vern, that looks like the simplest way to get what I want from the sail. I don't know that I'm going to get another chance to sail this season, but it's something to tuck away in my memory for spring.
Peter hit the nail on the head in post #16 - I never got around to practicing on light air days. My usual crew has no interest in it. They are either not interested in technical aspects of sailing, or they are racers who think "reef" is the dirtiest word ever spoken. I'm just going to have to be a hard-ass captain every so often, and say that if you want a free ride you're gonna have to help me figure a few things out. PaulK & Vern, that looks like the simplest way to get what I want from the sail. I don't know that I'm going to get another chance to sail this season, but it's something to tuck away in my memory for spring.
Moody, that was a good explanation ...
But I don't think that my problem is with the location of the reef tack cringle. My mainsail was built by a very experienced sail maker. Does your comment apply when the reef tack is a ring attached to the webbing through the cringle which is common to make the tack easier to attach to the reef hook? I like Pete's explanation because I know that I normally attach the tack to the hook and then tension the halyard before tensioning the clews reef line. I have to go forward to attach the tack, then I normally go back to the cockpit to tension the halyard and then tension the reefing line which is led from the gooseneck down to a fairlead at the base of the mast and back through a deck organiser and then a clutch to a cabin top winch. I actually have two reef lines and two jammers at the gooseneck and it may be easier to tension the reef line at the gooseneck and jam it right after hooking the tack. I will try that. There is a lot of friction as a line winds through multiple blocks - that is why I don't really favor a single line system that draws down the clew AND the tack. Moody, I don't see how the trim of the boom affects the tension of the reef line when I don't jam it at the gooseneck (well maybe marginally because it is led to one side). Is this really an issue?
But I don't think that my problem is with the location of the reef tack cringle. My mainsail was built by a very experienced sail maker. Does your comment apply when the reef tack is a ring attached to the webbing through the cringle which is common to make the tack easier to attach to the reef hook? I like Pete's explanation because I know that I normally attach the tack to the hook and then tension the halyard before tensioning the clews reef line. I have to go forward to attach the tack, then I normally go back to the cockpit to tension the halyard and then tension the reefing line which is led from the gooseneck down to a fairlead at the base of the mast and back through a deck organiser and then a clutch to a cabin top winch. I actually have two reef lines and two jammers at the gooseneck and it may be easier to tension the reef line at the gooseneck and jam it right after hooking the tack. I will try that. There is a lot of friction as a line winds through multiple blocks - that is why I don't really favor a single line system that draws down the clew AND the tack. Moody, I don't see how the trim of the boom affects the tension of the reef line when I don't jam it at the gooseneck (well maybe marginally because it is led to one side). Is this really an issue?
Hey Scott
If I understand your setup correctly, the reefing line runs aft from the gooseneck, through a cheek block on one side of the boom, up to and through the clew cringle, then down on the other side of the sail to a matching cheek block on the boom. You also noted that these cheek blocks are several inches aft of the clew cringle when reefed. I don't think the problem is your sail...I think one (or both) of the cheek blocks is not far enough aft on the boom. On my H23, the reefing line runs inside the boom from the gooseneck to the outer end, then over the starboard sheave in the boom end (the H23 has three), up to and through the reefing clew cringle from stbd to port, vertically down the port side to (and through) a second cringle just above the boom, and from there to a small bail on the underside of the boom where it is secured with a stopper knot. When reefed, the reefing line is vertical on one side of the boom and horizontal on the other. More importantly, the distance from the reefing clew cringle to the sheave in the end of my boom is about 18 inches. It is the horizontal pull of the reefing line provides the effective foot tension that Moody was talking about, and I quote: "A reefed sail should be very flat. Part of the reefing process it to make sure the new "foot" of the sail is tight." To tension the foot effectively, the reefing line needs to be near-horizontal, at least on one side. Peter H23 "Raven"
If I understand your setup correctly, the reefing line runs aft from the gooseneck, through a cheek block on one side of the boom, up to and through the clew cringle, then down on the other side of the sail to a matching cheek block on the boom. You also noted that these cheek blocks are several inches aft of the clew cringle when reefed. I don't think the problem is your sail...I think one (or both) of the cheek blocks is not far enough aft on the boom. On my H23, the reefing line runs inside the boom from the gooseneck to the outer end, then over the starboard sheave in the boom end (the H23 has three), up to and through the reefing clew cringle from stbd to port, vertically down the port side to (and through) a second cringle just above the boom, and from there to a small bail on the underside of the boom where it is secured with a stopper knot. When reefed, the reefing line is vertical on one side of the boom and horizontal on the other. More importantly, the distance from the reefing clew cringle to the sheave in the end of my boom is about 18 inches. It is the horizontal pull of the reefing line provides the effective foot tension that Moody was talking about, and I quote: "A reefed sail should be very flat. Part of the reefing process it to make sure the new "foot" of the sail is tight." To tension the foot effectively, the reefing line needs to be near-horizontal, at least on one side. Peter H23 "Raven"
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