Reefed loose-footed mainsail control

[Quoddy]

The jib has one line to the clew. When it is eased the foot depth increases and the leech twists.
The main has two directions of clew control. Outhaul eased and foot depth increases, mainsheet eased and leech twists.
I see that most reef the main with one line either direct to the clew or through a cheek type block on the boom or 2/1 purchase clew to boom.
If the mainsheet is eased then the clew line eases like the single jib line and the foot depth increases and the leech twists. It seems the only way to restore the dual function of the original mainsail clew is to strap the clew to the boom so the clew line performs as an outhaul and the easing of the mainsheet controls twist.
I hardly ever see this done so maybe most people don’t care about reefed sail trim, or am I missing something?

 

[Jackdaw]

I think you are asking; do you typically give up your outhaul function when reefing?

If that it I have two thoughts:

1) says that if you are going to reef, you want a tight clew in any case to flatten the main. The reefing setup might take that into account.

2) On my boats (with loose footed mains) my jiffy reef lines come out of aft end of the boom, up to the reef cringles, and down to the boom where they end in a bowline. Initial effort pulls the cringle to the boom, and additional effort pulls the clew (and the bowline) aft, in effect mimicking the outhaul.

 

[Don Guillette]

Quoddy: I'm one that does not care about reefed sail trim. That's just my personal preference. I'm watching the wind and the waves and waiting for the next shoe to fall and don't have time to mess with sail trim. I strap or rope a length of line around the boom and clew of the sail so I couldn't operate the outhaul if I wanted to, which I don't. I've pulled the outhaul as far aft as it will go in an effort to reduce all the draft depth I possibly can and that's it until I get that baby back to the dock. I want the sail as flat as I can get it.

There is one thing I've noticed a lot of sailors do with a reefed main and that's to tie the reefing lines as tight as they can. The purpose of the reefing lines are to merely "tidy up" the sail so it's not falling all over the place. The reefing cringles are not designed to take any strain and if the wind really pipes up or you're hit by a big gust and you've tied the reefing lines tight there's a good chance the sail will rip straight up from the cringles. So keep the reefing lines loose and you're mainsail will like you for it.

 

[Stu Jackson]

I agree with Don about the bunt lines. 90% of the time I never bother to tie them.

 

[sinnettc]

I use the bunt line kringles if only because my sail is still so stiff that it pokes out otherwise. I use the ball type tarp bungies instead of ties though.

 

[Joe]

I can't imagine why you would want to "power up" a reefed mainsail with the outhaul. The whole point of the reef is to "depower" the sailplan. If you want more power, shake out the reef.

 

[Quoddy]

Normally reefed

Our H260 is best if we stay under 15 degrees, in our wind conditions our boat is on first reef 80% of the time. So this is our normal sail configuration. I realized that I didn’t have the same depth and twist adjustments that I would have in the normal full main setup and was looking to improve control.

 

[Don Guillette]

Re: Normally reefed

Joe: Great comment, which I never thought of. I get the question all the time at sail trim seminars "how do you trim a reefed sail" and my answer used to be "I don't" but they persist. Now I'm going to add "why would you want to in the first place and add if you want more power shake out the reef". That should end the questions.

Of course I'll mention I learned that from "Joe from San Diego!!!"

 

[Stu Jackson]

I can't imagine why you would want to "power up" a reefed mainsail with the outhaul. The whole point of the reef is to "depower" the sailplan. If you want more power, shake out the reef.

Don, to add to this: Once you reef you don't HAVE an outhaul. The clew reef point is static. Then ask 'em what static means!

The only things left to adjust are the traveler, mainsheet and vang. And maybe halyard tension, but by then you'd want it tight anyway.

Great point, Joe.

 

[RichH]

The jib has one line to the clew. When it is eased the foot depth increases and the leech twists.
The main has two directions of clew control. Outhaul eased and foot depth increases, mainsheet eased and leech twists.

If you used a vang, you wouldnt have this 'leech twisting problem', then you can simply 'blade out' the main/boom with the traveller when overpowered ... leave the mainsheet cleated and 'work' the travelller.

.

If the mainsheet is eased then the clew line eases like the single jib line and the foot depth increases and the leech twists. It seems the only way to restore the dual function of the original mainsail clew is to strap the clew to the boom so the clew line performs as an outhaul and the easing of the mainsheet controls twist.
I hardly ever see this done so maybe most people don’t care about reefed sail trim, or am I missing something?

Use your VANG, unless you 'want' a big curvy leech and a raised boom (which is vulnerable to sudden 'power-ups' during wind shifts and gusts).

For a reefing discussion, and the importance of easing the 'reef clew', especially when beating into waves and chop, go to http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=136222 .... and see post #8. ...... The summary of that discussion is if you reef, you still have to control the 'reefed outhaul' position to adjust the 'amount' of draft. If you overtighten the reef clew you will get a FLAT 'high speed' (reefed) mainsail shape and that isnt good for POWERING into and through waves and steep chop. Without the POWER that comes from slightly slower but fuller draft shape, a flat reefed draft-reduced mainsail will have less ability to 'accelerate' once the boat gets 'stopped' by an oncoming wave .... and the only way out of that situation is to bear off, before yet another wave hits the bow. ... ditto, when tacking in heavy chop or waves.
I like 6:1 or higher purchase for the outhauls(s) ... or the outhaul(s) controls run back to cabin top 'winches' then you dont think twice about adjusting.

Flat shape = high gear for 'speed sailing'; full shape /more draft = lower gear for 'power sailing'. ............ and this also applies when 'reefing' !!!!!!!!

 

[Stu Jackson]

Rich, Your reference says: If you deep reef and don't INCREASE the amount of draft (easing the outhaul)...

In my question in #9 above, I asked the question. I'm still confused about the use of the word "outhaul" when the clew is reefed, deep or not.

Please help. Do I simply let off a bit of the clew reef line? 'Cuz when I'm reefed my outhaul is "buried" by the reefed sail material.

I can do this with my double line reefing. Many with single line reefing may not be able to.

Or is this ONLY for roller furled? It would seem that even loose footed mains would be the same as my traditional main?

 

[RichH]

Stu ... what Im calling the 'aft reefing line' is an 'outhaul control', an 'outhaul' thats attached directly to the reef at the leech of the sail.

QUOTE/Ref. ---- It all depends on whether you're sailing upwind or downwind. For 'upwind', If you deep reef and dont INCREASE the amount of draft (easing the outhaul) you will be left with a increasingly flat sail shape which is a sail shape that is good only for 'speed sailing'. When you need to reef and are going upwind you need 'increased draft' to develop the *power* to enable you to 'punch' through waves. If you have a 'flat' reefed shape, you wont go much of anywhere upwind .... except slow. Better to go deeper reefed with LOTS of draft than 'first reefed' and 'flat as a sheet of plywood'. ENDQUOTE
What Im stating here is that 'usually' a reef is put in with the 'aft reef point and control line' FULLY tensioned ... and that can result in a 'board flat' sail shape, a 'speed shape' not a 'power shape'. You get 'power' by increasing draft ... by easing the 'outhaul' ... aka the line thats attached to the aft reef point.

more clear?
.... Engrish is such a difficult language!

 

[All U Get]

I agree with Don about the bunt lines. 90% of the time I never bother to tie them.

I often wondered about this and if the cringles aren't supposed to have any strain on them, why are they in line on the sail with the reef points?
All U Get

 

[Stu Jackson]

Thanks, Rich

... by easing the 'outhaul' ... aka the line that's attached to the aft reef point.

more clear?
.... Engrish is such a difficult language!

Plurrfeckt.

 

[Don Guillette]

All U Get: Compare them to the cringles on the tack and the clew - they're just little guys!! They have to put some sort of a cringle in the sail other wise they be just punching a hole in the sail and putting a tie through it, which would never work. Also, they have to put them some place and where they're located is just a coincidence. Believe me they are not designed to take any strain. Just use the reefing lines to 'tidy up" the sail.

 

[All U Get]

It's just one of those things you see forever and then one day???? Thanks Don
All U Get

 

[sinnettc]

Quoddy, I see where you were trying to get with your question and, having a tall rig Capri 22, I feel your pain. I spend a lot of time with the reef in when the wind is honking and the Admiral is along. I think if you adjust the tension on the clew reefing line a bit (I'm talking a few inches at most) that you can improve the shape a bit, like with the outhaul, without things getting too crazy or sloppy on the boom. If yours is like mine, though, you might want to add a line through the kringle and around the boom to keep it from rising as you ease the reefing line. Kind of like the line I used to have to keep the clew of my laser's main close to the boom.

 

[Joe]

Passing this on from a number of other sources..... since being a fair weather, San Diego sailor, I don't reef much..... but... it is recommended that when tying in the nettles, or buntlines, or sail ties, or reef ties, or whatever the hell you want to call them.... use COLORED line or webbing.... solid color... not white. WHY????? So you won't forget to remove them before releasing the reef lines, therefore avoiding serious damage to those weak little points located smack in the middle of your valuable sail.

 

[Quoddy]

Sudden power-up

I’m going upwind on a lightly ballasted boat with a110 jib, the main has all the telltales flying. The main is setup so the boom can rise some with gusts, easing the leech to spill power.

RichH
you said ”Use your VANG, unless you 'want' a big curvy leech and a raised boom (which is vulnerable to sudden 'power-ups' during wind shifts and gusts). “

Can you or anyone else elaborate on the “sudden power-up” scenario?

 

[Cayennita]

In my boat, I have a flattening reef up the clew in line with the cunningham. Here in the caribbean we use it a lot when racing. Between that, traveller, mainsheet fine tune and a cascading back stay I can depower the main but still able to power up to go over the normal 6 -8 foot waves when going up wind. If I need a full reef, I use the same system as Jackdaw in the First 36.7. Additionally I tie the reef clew with a line around the boom to relieve some strain on the line. Also serves the purpose of increasing draft while reefed since you do want the clew against the boom. Never use the cringles.