Recovering a Sunken Boat

[Bruce R]

Ahoy All! I just got myself into a pickle and was hoping to get some advice. I read an ad on craigslist of a guy who wanted to give a boat to whoever recovered it. So, I went looked at it. I don’t know much about Seidelmann boats but I thought she has nice lines and a good shape. At low tide I dug a lot of sand from under the rudder and keel, bought a bilge pump and pumped the water out and waited for high tide. The owner told me she had been lying there for 2 months and the authorities were about to charge him with felony dumping. He said if someone didn't recover her within a few days he was going to chop her into pieces and dispose. He owned her for a year and it sunk 4 times and he was tired of it. So he signed her over to me. When the tide came in she floated and I put her at anchor to sort things out. I noticed the drain hose for the sink broke off and he pinched off the hose with vise grips and laid it down in the bilge…leaking. I tied the hose above the water line and the next day the bilge was dry.

So, now, I’m taking an inventory of the things that’s concerning me. I would like to share my concerns with you guys and maybe you can add to my concerns or give some advice and opinions and help me to realize what a big mistake I’ve made…or didn’t make.

Concern #1: She is listing to starboard about 3 inches. (sorry no photos)
Concern #2: The mainsheet assembly is missing. Where does this attach…there is no traveler
Concern #3: The jib halyard is missing. How do you run a new one, how long, what size
Concern #4: The main halyard is cut.
Concern #5: The boom vang is missing.
Concern #6: The cabin sole is warping and delaminating.
Concern #7: Where is the bilge pump located? Thru hull fitting?
Concern #8: Tiller handle is cracked.

Well, that’s all the critical concerns I have at this time. I’m sure I’m not seeing everything, but maybe you guys can help me out. I would like to get her sailing as quickly and inexpensively as possible to see if I like her before committing a boatload of money on her. If I like her, I’ll have to locate a trailer, demast and take her home for the restoration.

Thanks in advance for any and all comments, opinions and advice you may have.
Bruce

 

[Ted]

Bruce, the items you listed aren't a big deal to rectify. My concern is the condition of the structural bulkheads. Many boats of this size and vintage used plywood for the main bulkheads. If they have been sitting in water for any length of time, they will have wicked up a large amount of water. Check all structural bulkheads for rot or de-lamination before you make your final decision about whether to keep or repair her. While material costs will not be expensive, your labor, ability and access to damaged parts will be the determining factor. Good luck you your project boat.

 

[Surveyor]

Bruce

Your pictures show that the back stay is missing. Do not sail with out one, this rig needs a back stay to sail despite the swept back spreaders.
In general I would be concerned about the condition of the standing rigging it was 5/32" and had a relatively small safety factor. The chain plates and stem head were aluminum I would be concerned about their condition and the small bulkheads they are attached to.
The teak support at the main bulkhead is what transfers the compression load to the floor frames from the mast, I would check its condition and the floor frames it bears on.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

The pictures show that you have a Seidelmann 25. Actually it is a pretty decent sailing boat and in 1978 I bought one new. I probably have the original brochure on those boats. '78 was one of the first ones they built. Later boats had different keels than the original. I cannot see the keep in your pictures, but the graphics on the sheer suggest an earlier boat than later. But, your keel is probably fine and so I was just babbling.
There is a special square tube with bracket made out of aluminum that sticks into the square hole in the transom to attach an outboard. The bracket has holes in it so that you can attach an adjustable motor mount (Like an Eez In Gaerlick product). I believe I have one of those Seidelmann made brackets. Will sell it to you if you are interested.
The problem with a boat that has been submerged, is you can have a mold problem. But the interior picture suggests it is pretty nasty down below and so you probably want to gut out the whole interior and start anew. You don't want to totally destroy your bulkheads or berth benches as you can use them for patterns for new pieces. One problem that Seidelmann had was how they supported the floor and the mast. They used 2x4 pieces of wood that were fiberglassed in thwartwise along the hull. This gave the hull support and also provided a base for the floor which is teak and holly plywood over a subfloor. Seidelmann did not completely encapsulate these thwart supports and left the ends open. Since they were in the bilge, the wood got wet and deteriorated. The ones that were beneath the mast collapsed some under the compression of the rig and so that was a tough fix. But, if you blow everything out of the boat and start from scratch, you can put the boat back together and do it right. All the wooden components are really pretty simple and so reconstructing the interior is not that daunting unless you don't know which end of a screw driver to hold on to, but with what I have read so far, you seem like you can problem solve. So, go for it.
I think you will enjoy how she sails. And, it is a good looking vessel as well.

 

[Bruce R]

Thanks for the replies!

Yesterday we towed her to the dock to do some sorting out. She has not taken on any water for the week she's been floating, so that's encouraging. We ran main and jib halyards(a daunting task). We rigged a mainsheet assembly from the aft end of the boom to an eyelet right above the rudder post in the cockpit(is this correct?). Rigged the outhaul. As far as I can tell, she is ready to sail after we complete a general cleaning. I still have to do some carb work on my outboard, but as soon as that's running, we'll take her out for a sail to see how she performs.

Ted and Surveyor, I check as best I could for soft spots or delam on structual members and everything seems solid, even the subfloor is still solid, just the teak and holly finish has delaminated. I am worried that some wicking took place causing her to list to starboard. I guess it could be a result of all the Barnacles still remaining on starboard as port was scraped before we floated her.

Barnacle Bill, I gather from the hull number, she is a S25 1978 vintage. You mentioned about the keel and this is another area of concern for me. I've looked at the brouchures and notice she should have a normal fin keel which is straight down aft and swept back on the fore. The keel on this boat is something I've never seen. I looks like a dolphin fin that is extreemly swept back with the tip tight against the bottom of the hull. It reminds me of the shape of a surfboard fin. Do you know any thing about this? A friend of mine said it's possible someone took a grinder to the keel and reshaped it. I do know she rocks side to side very easily. If she was lying in a slip when I board her, her mast would almost hit the mast of her neighbor. She just seems very tender to me. Any info on this issue would be very helpful. I do have the outboard bracket, but it's in pieces and the cylinder is shot.

Well, thanks again for all your input. I'm looking forward to getting her under sail and I'll keep you guys updated. Hopefully next time I'll have pictures to post.

Bruce

 

[Bruce R]

Surveyor, I checked the rigging and the stainless looks good. The chainplates are aluminum and appear to be in good shape as well.

 

[Surveyor]

Don't forget the back stay! There should be a stay from the top of the mast to the chainplate on the transom, it is missing in your photos. Do not sail with out it, you will loose the mast!!

Navtec has a great publication on line, about rigging and its life expectancy I suggest you read it before putting a load on the rigging. Long story short they recomend a mast down inspection by a qualified rigger every 5 years and a 10 year maximum life, since you don't know the history please be very cautious.

Corrosion on the chain plates can be hidden where they pass thru the deck you have to remove them to properly inspect them.

The early Seidelmann 25 used a Hunter 25 keel both deep and shoal the Hunter keels weighed about 1700Lbs the later Seidelmann keel weighed around 2100. I'm fairly sure from your description and the year you have a Hunter shoal. Yes the boat is tender to about 15 or 20 degrees then hardens up.

Best of luck. Have fun. Be safe!!

 

[Bruce R]

Thanks for the heads up, Surveyor. The backstay has been reattached and the rig seems adequate. I'm interested to see the condition of the chainplates at the deck line. Maybe I'll remove those and inspect during the restoration.

Bruce

 

[Seamon]

Hello,
you can look at few pics on my photo album... might help you... you can see the original keel shape.

Simon

 

[Bruce R]

Thanks for the info!

Well, we took her out the other day. She performed pretty well considering I didn't have a backstay adjustment. We borrowed a 170% jib and with a stiffining breeze, she heeled quite a bit. Our speed didn't quite hit the 5mph mark. Does anyone know what the hull speed would be on this boat?? I'm sure when we scrape the barnecles off her starboard side, she'll do alot better.

Seaman, I enjoyed your photo album. I noticed on the side of your boat there is an indention right at the point where the chainplates attached to the mini bulkhead there. My boat has the same indention. Do you know if these boats came out of the mold that way? Maybe Surveyor will have the answer to this.

Thanks
Bruce

 

[Surveyor]

Re: Thanks for the info!

Bruce

The dimple you describe is caused by tension on the shrouds and gets worse while sailing, they were not in the mold.
Later Seidelmann 25s have the chainplate bulkheads go all the way down to the bunk tops to spread the tensile load to the bunk top and main bulkhead.
Stainless steel tie rods were supplied as a retro fit to all 25 owners. They were to be installed from an upper chain plate bolt and thru the bunk top. Slots had to be cut in the cushions to allow the installation.
If I were rebuilding the interior I would replace the bulkheads with the full length version.

 

[Seamon]

Chain plates modifications

Hi surveyor,
It's so nice to have somebody so experienced like you around! Here's 4 questions for you...

If I machine an aluminum part with the same dimensions than the 1st generation bulkhead and I anodized it.

1- Do you think it will be as strong than a 2nd generation bulkhead.

2- Do you think I would get a good adhesion "shear/traction" resistance considering that is now alu + epoxy...

3- What was the resine Seidelmann was using at the time? Polyester or epoxy?

4- Should I use the same resine for my modifications?

P.S. Sorry for my english, tell me if you don't understand my questions

Bruce

The dimple you describe is caused by tension on the shrouds and gets worse while sailing, they were not in the mold.
Later Seidelmann 25s have the chainplate bulkheads go all the way down to the bunk tops to spread the tensile load to the bunk top and main bulkhead.
Stainless steel tie rods were supplied as a retro fit to all 25 owners. They were to be installed from an upper chain plate bolt and thru the bunk top. Slots had to be cut in the cushions to allow the installation.
If I were rebuilding the interior I would replace the bulkheads with the full length version.

 

[Surveyor]

Seidelmann 25 Chainplate bulkheads

Semon

In the interior pictures in this brochure
http://www.seidelmann-owners.com/Brochure_1979/target1.html
you can just see the new style chainplate bulkhead extended to the top of the bunk. I am the tall guy holding on to the boom.

In this brochure is the old style you can see it ends above the bunk cushion.
http://www.seidelmann-owners.com/S25B/target1.html

Answers to your questions

1. The issue was not the strength of the bulkhead but stiffness of the hull side, lengthening the bulkhead to the bunk top solved that issue. Aluminum would be nice, but over kill in my opinion.

2. Follow manufacturers recommendations on bonding to aluminum, I would stick to good quality marine plywood for the bulkhead and bond with vinyl-ester or epoxy resin

3. Your boat was built with ortho polyester resin.

4. I would use vinyl-ester, it gives me less skin issues than epoxy and is similar to polyester in working characteristics.
Many people prefer epoxy and it has advantages. I would not repair a boat this old with polyester.

Hi surveyor,
It's so nice to have somebody so experienced like you around! Here's 4 questions for you...

If I machine an aluminum part with the same dimensions than the 1st generation bulkhead and I anodized it.

1- Do you think it will be as strong than a 2nd generation bulkhead.

2- Do you think I would get a good adhesion "shear/traction" resistance considering that is now alu + epoxy...

3- What was the resine Seidelmann was using at the time? Polyester or epoxy?

4- Should I use the same resine for my modifications?

P.S. Sorry for my english, tell me if you don't understand my questions

 

[Seamon]

Thank you very much for your answer!

I already have west-system epoxy, and for vinylester resin I'm affraid of the adhesion capabalities... but that's just me.

I wanted to use aluminum because it will not get roten, but teak will be fine and easier to manipulate.

thank you!

Semon

In the interior pictures in this brochure
http://www.seidelmann-owners.com/Brochure_1979/target1.html
you can just see the new style chainplate bulkhead extended to the top of the bunk. I am the tall guy holding on to the boom.

In this brochure is the old style you can see it ends above the bunk cushion.
http://www.seidelmann-owners.com/S25B/target1.html

Answers to your questions

1. The issue was not the strength of the bulkhead but stiffness of the hull side, lengthening the bulkhead to the bunk top solved that issue. Aluminum would be nice, but over kill in my opinion.

2. Follow manufacturers recommendations on bonding to aluminum, I would stick to good quality marine plywood for the bulkhead and bond with vinyl-ester or epoxy resin

3. Your boat was built with ortho polyester resin.

4. I would use vinyl-ester, it gives me less skin issues than epoxy and is similar to polyester in working characteristics.
Many people prefer epoxy and it has advantages. I would not repair a boat this old with polyester.

 

[YodaMouse]

I have a 1982 Seidelmann 25 as well, located on Monroe Lake in Sanford which is a couple of hours drive from Tampa. If you needed to come by and look at the rigging or take some pictures, I would be glad to show you the boat, inside and out.

I just bought it last month and hauled it out today to repair a gaping hole in its side. (She's pretty rough...) It will be on the dry for a week.

Also, I noticed on mine that the rudder is not in very good shape. I'm going to attach a safety chain to the top of it until there are funds to repair it. You know, so I don't have to go diving in the lake to recover the darn thing, were it to fall off. I would recommend checking yours as well.

Oh yeah, and this model boat comes with side stays. Do not try sailing her without them or you could damage your rigging.

Anyway, drop me a note if you want to come by...

 

[Seamon]

Concern #7: Where is the bilge pump located? Thru hull fitting?


The bildge pump goes to a "Y" under the sink.

Simon

Ahoy All! I just got myself into a pickle and was hoping to get some advice. I read an ad on craigslist of a guy who wanted to give a boat to whoever recovered it. So, I went looked at it. I don’t know much about Seidelmann boats but I thought she has nice lines and a good shape. At low tide I dug a lot of sand from under the rudder and keel, bought a bilge pump and pumped the water out and waited for high tide. The owner told me she had been lying there for 2 months and the authorities were about to charge him with felony dumping. He said if someone didn't recover her within a few days he was going to chop her into pieces and dispose. He owned her for a year and it sunk 4 times and he was tired of it. So he signed her over to me. When the tide came in she floated and I put her at anchor to sort things out. I noticed the drain hose for the sink broke off and he pinched off the hose with vise grips and laid it down in the bilge…leaking. I tied the hose above the water line and the next day the bilge was dry.

So, now, I’m taking an inventory of the things that’s concerning me. I would like to share my concerns with you guys and maybe you can add to my concerns or give some advice and opinions and help me to realize what a big mistake I’ve made…or didn’t make.

Concern #1: She is listing to starboard about 3 inches. (sorry no photos)
Concern #2: The mainsheet assembly is missing. Where does this attach…there is no traveler
Concern #3: The jib halyard is missing. How do you run a new one, how long, what size
Concern #4: The main halyard is cut.
Concern #5: The boom vang is missing.
Concern #6: The cabin sole is warping and delaminating.
Concern #7: Where is the bilge pump located? Thru hull fitting?
Concern #8: Tiller handle is cracked.

Well, that’s all the critical concerns I have at this time. I’m sure I’m not seeing everything, but maybe you guys can help me out. I would like to get her sailing as quickly and inexpensively as possible to see if I like her before committing a boatload of money on her. If I like her, I’ll have to locate a trailer, demast and take her home for the restoration.

Thanks in advance for any and all comments, opinions and advice you may have.
Bruce

 

[Seamon]

Is it possible to change the chain plates bulkheads without puting my mast down?

If so... How?

Semon

In the interior pictures in this brochure
http://www.seidelmann-owners.com/Brochure_1979/target1.html
you can just see the new style chainplate bulkhead extended to the top of the bunk. I am the tall guy holding on to the boom.

In this brochure is the old style you can see it ends above the bunk cushion.
http://www.seidelmann-owners.com/S25B/target1.html

Answers to your questions

1. The issue was not the strength of the bulkhead but stiffness of the hull side, lengthening the bulkhead to the bunk top solved that issue. Aluminum would be nice, but over kill in my opinion.

2. Follow manufacturers recommendations on bonding to aluminum, I would stick to good quality marine plywood for the bulkhead and bond with vinyl-ester or epoxy resin

3. Your boat was built with ortho polyester resin.

4. I would use vinyl-ester, it gives me less skin issues than epoxy and is similar to polyester in working characteristics.
Many people prefer epoxy and it has advantages. I would not repair a boat this old with polyester.

 

[Adam O]

1978 S25

i bought a 1978 s25 a year ago and i love it. its a great race boat. i have many of the same issues as others. bulkheads too weak. dimples in hull from tight rigging. etc... however i did solve my rudder problem before it was a disaster. the aluminum shaft was pitted. the bearings were worn. the rudder had water in it and it froze in the winter to cause cracking of the glass.

my whole rudder problem was fixed for a couple hundred bucks.

how is your rudder?

most s25 i have seen have rudder slop and a worn shaft. i race my boat hard and was worried about losing my weak rudder.... but not any more.

and yes... i have done major work on my chainplates and bulkheads without dropping my mast...

 

[Seamon]

1 at a time?

Hi Adam,
Di you repair 1 bulkhead at a time? Did you put something to protect the ceiling, so that the plate don't pull the deck to hard?

thx,
Simon

i bought a 1978 s25 a year ago and i love it. its a great race boat. i have many of the same issues as others. bulkheads too weak. dimples in hull from tight rigging. etc... however i did solve my rudder problem before it was a disaster. the aluminum shaft was pitted. the bearings were worn. the rudder had water in it and it froze in the winter to cause cracking of the glass.

my whole rudder problem was fixed for a couple hundred bucks.

how is your rudder?

most s25 i have seen have rudder slop and a worn shaft. i race my boat hard and was worried about losing my weak rudder.... but not any more.

and yes... i have done major work on my chainplates and bulkheads without dropping my mast...

 

[Adam O]

Re: 1 at a time?

I did both at the same time. using my halyards attatched to my toerail to support the upper mast. then i disconnected the stays. i epoxied new plywood to the original bulkheads to a thickness of 1 1/2" . then glass tabbed the whole thing to the hull. my chainplates were fine but the undersized wedge bulkheads and the thin hull create quite a dimple. i got many a comment as i sailed by others. ...but its solved now