Recent info on Titan vs ACCO G4 anchor chain

[smokey73]

Does anyone have any recent experience with Titan and ACCO G4 anchor chain.
Some of the older threads indicated that ACCO was having some problems with welds and galvanizing with the "new ownership". Titan is an Canadian Company but I think their chain is manufactured in one of their factories in China.

Just looking for experience with either. I have 100 ft of ACCO chain but want to go to 200 ft and don't think a splicing link in anchor chain is a good idea.

Thanks in advance

 

[capta]

I'm on my second length of ACCO BBB anchor chain in 4 years and will need to replace it soon. Though we got our money back for the first length, it was a frustrating, lengthy and unpleasant experience. I questioned the factory both times regarding their "hot dipped galvanized" anchor chain because it looks, feels and wears much more like electroplate to me. Either they don't know the difference or they don't care. Our previous 3/8" and present 1/2" chain had the holes shown in the picture below in less than 2 years of continuous service.
I will not buy their chain again, period.
I believe Titan is the Canadian company that had the huge foul up with the Chinese manufacturing of the Rocna anchors, so if anybody does, they should know how to spec stuff out for the Chinese manufacturers to get the right quality, if they care enough. Yacht chain is a pretty small market in the scheme of things, so I doubt quality control anywhere outside the super pricey German chain industry is very important to the companies.

 

[Fred Villiard]

Practical Sailor had an article on anchor chain in the past few months

 

[smokey73]

Practical Sailor had an article on anchor chain in the past few months

I can't seem to find the recent one? There is one from 2105 but if there is a later one I'd appreciate the month if you know it?

Thanks

 

[jssailem]

There is a September 2011 chain report. August 2015 a report on Chain and shackles.

These might help.

 

[smokey73]

I saw those, I was just hoping for something more recent since there appears to be some differences showing up in American made chain and foreign made chain. See Capta's post above. I think one of the comments from one of the articles was that one (although they couldn't identify the manufacturer) Chinese manufactured chains as good or better than the tested US made chain. I am sure Capta anchors a lot more than me so his chain is in the water a lot more than mine will be. Also, maybe there is another explanation for the pitting shown on Capta's chain but it is troubling to see and not something I want to buy into.

I am all for Buy American and that is the route I currently intend to pursue but not at the cost of quality. Its interesting what was said about Rocna. As I understand it, when Titan acquired the manufacturing of Rocna anchors they swooped in and destroyed hundreds if not thousands of previously manufactured Rocna anchors that didn't meet their standards and started all over again. Not sure if that is correct or "company line" but that is my understanding.

Hopefully some others with recent experience will chime in with their thoughts.

 

[capta]

The consensus of opinions as to the fault in this chain seems to be that it is metallurgical. It is definitely NOT electrolysis. Neither the anchors or shackles have any of this corrosion (or lost galvanizing) and nor does the inside of the links. Either this steel is softer than the sandstone coral of the Caribbean anchorages or the metal production is faulty.

 

[jssailem]

I lean on Metal - FAULTY

 

[Terry Cox]

Never seen a chain link like the one in the image above. The area we sail/anchor in is sea water. To help insure that I obtain a long chain life I steer clear of either BBB or proof coil. Neither are as strong or as corrosion resistant as G4 or G7. We have G4 anchor rode and whenever I need any our local industrial supply house inventories hot dipped galvanized G4 that fits our windlass. They tell me it is USA made and I trust them. The 30' section that came with our 1991 boat had no signs of corrosion when I replaced it for a 50' section about 15 years ago. Still no signs of corrosion on the new section after spending a considerable amount of time in sea water at anchor.

 

[smokey73]

I lean on Metal - FAULTY

Interesting. These chains are made from "wire" that is then bent and welded into the link. Even if the chain is "made" (ie bent, welded and galvanized) in the US, I wonder where the steel is made? I know that when a project I was on had to get a large amount of titanium pipe we had to get most of it from Russia even though we were under a government contract that specified "Buy American." Go figure! Of course we did extensive metallurgical testing before we used it.

From the pictures Capta posted it doesn't look like erosion but more like pitting or loss of metal. It looks like there were defects or inclusions in the wire that then corroded quickly, leaving holes. I lean on the side of a metallurgical failure in the base wire too. The disturbing part is that it has happened twice to Capta so its hard to call it a "isolated" event. Too bad we don't have a recall system like with cars. It is a significant safety issue if you can't rely on your anchor chain and its due to a manufacturing defect.

Does anyone know where the wired is sourced for the anchor chain manufactured by Pearless/ACCO?

 

[smokey73]

Never seen a chain link like the one in the image above. The area we sail/anchor in is sea water. To help insure that I obtain a long chain life I steer clear of either BBB or proof coil. Neither are as strong or as corrosion resistant as G4 or G7. We have G4 anchor rode and whenever I need any our local industrial supply house inventories hot dipped galvanized G4 that fits our windlass. They tell me it is USA made and I trust them. The 30' section that came with our 1991 boat had no signs of corrosion when I replaced it for a 50' section about 15 years ago. Still no signs of corrosion on the new section after spending a considerable amount of time in sea water at anchor.

Thanks Terry, Did they happen to mention who was the manufacturer of the G4? Of course if the sourced wire is made in Mexico, China, Germany or wherever and the wire is then made into chain in the US do you get to call it US Made? I would think so and with amount of foreign made steel coming into the US it may be a little hard to tell. Today, even with the same manufacturer, things may be much different from 15 years ago? Does anyone have 200 feet of G4 from 15 years ago available?

 

[jssailem]

The image of Capta's chain does lead one to inspect the chain rode at least once a year. Pull it out of the locker, run it down the dock, give it a wash and take a look at the metal.

 

[SOCAL C50]

The image of Capta's chain does lead one to inspect the chain rode at least once a year. Pull it out of the locker, run it down the dock, give it a wash and take a look at the metal.

Yes, prevent corrosion by doing some annual or bi-annual (heavy use) maintenance.

 

[Gunni]

If you are able to determine the provenance and quality of any Chinese manufactured chain that is not certified by a reputable American chain manufacturer I would like to know who that is. Fact is Chinese chains shows up in our market because price not quality is the driving force. Then there is just that wild-west industrial style where inferior products come to market from who knows where in the Chinese industries. Try finding, let alone getting a warrantied replacement from China. My ACCO BBB chain is definitely hot-dip galvanized with a thick and obvious covering of zinc.

 

[Terry Cox]

The image of Capta's chain does lead one to inspect the chain rode at least once a year. Pull it out of the locker, run it down the dock, give it a wash and take a look at the metal.

Agree. Since I use a warp splice connecting the chain to rope, I visually inspect the splice and chain every time I pay it in, especially the splices and the chain to anchor shackle. Then a liberal fresh water wash down at the end of each cruise.

 

[smokey73]

If you are able to determine the provenance and quality of any Chinese manufactured chain that is not certified by a reputable American chain manufacturer I would like to know who that is. Fact is Chinese chains shows up in our market because price not quality is the driving force. Then there is just that wild-west industrial style where inferior products come to market from who knows where in the Chinese industries. Try finding, let alone getting a warrantied replacement from China. My ACCO BBB chain is definitely hot-dip galvanized with a thick and obvious covering of zinc.

Agree Gunni,

The question, however, is not just who manufactures the chain but where the raw steel wire that is the staring point for the chain comes from in the first place. I would bet that most if not all of the chain manufacturers do not own the steel mills that produce the raw wire that they then make into chain (bend, weld, coat). That then becomes the question. Where do they get the raw materials and how do they "certify" the materials. I'm pretty familiar with Certificates of Conformance (COC), which is merely a statement in writing that the procured raw material "Conforms" to the stated specifications. It is only as good as your confidence in the producer of the steel. I am also familiar with Certified Material Test Reports (CMTRs) that are traceable to the lot and heat number of the material provided and give actual material analysis. (I do this for a living in QA) I doubt seriously that any chain manufacturer, of anchor chain anyway, demands CMTRs from their suppliers, more likely COC's if even that. So, depending on where the steel comes from and what the chain manufacturer does to "certify" it there might be some considerable variation regardless of the source of the steel. A more important question might be how do they "certify" their materials and manufacturing. Do they proof test a sample from every batch of chain produced from a particular steel lot/heat? Do they proof test a random sample regardless of steel lot/heat? Do they even proof test at all?

How old is your ACCO chain? Since Capta's appears to be recently purchased (maybe two purchases in 4 or 5 years from the sound of his post) maybe something changed in their procurement of the raw wire or in their production of the chain. That's why I'm interested in recent experience. As you so correctly stated "in the wild west industrial style" has Pearless/ACCO tried to reduce costs by buying cheaper sourced wire (maybe even Chinese for that matter)? Titan (a Canadian company) admits that they make their chain in China but they make the claim that they control the manufacturing process, proof test and certify their chain. I'd be interested to know ACCO's source of the steel wire. I'm not advocating any source or manufacturer, just trying to figure out what I'm buying and what to expect for performance, based on recent experience. So far, the only recent experience has not been good (Capta's) unless your chain was purchased in the last 5 years or so.

 

[Gunni]

My Acco 3/8" BBB is 13 years old, no rust. I swapped it end for end 5 years ago and will evaluate again this year. Capta's chain is really odd given the short lifespan, but his chain may very well spend as much time in the water in 4 years as mine has in 13 years. And mine spends most of its time in soft mud and clay. His likely sits on volcanic rock and sand with the hardness of carborundum. Clearly he has quickly lost the galvanization from his chain and experienced uneven corrosion that compromises the working load limit.

So there are really three concerns here, loss of corrosion protection, chain specification assurance, and manufacturing quality compliance. To manage these concerns and related risks I do three things, 1) I buy from an American company with American warranty access, 2) I buy a big fat BBB so I have plenty of metal to rust away before it weakens, and 3) Avoid any of the "high-tensile", heat treated skinny chain because I don't trust anyone in the industry to sell me chain that even meets their own specification. Glad you are examining the situation. Looking forward to your shopping results.

 

[smokey73]

Thanks Gunni, very good perspective. I appreciate your input. The next question I have to answer is if the 5/16 BBB will fit my windlass. The G4 does for sure as that is what I have now. I have a Maxwell 800 windlass but I know there are different sizes of chain that they take. I'm sure I can research it though and the BBB might be the best.

Looking at Capta's chain the troubling part is not the general corrosion but the deep pitting near the welding heat affected zone. I don't know if the welding had anything to do with it but I imagine they use an automatic welding machine so you wouldn't expect inclusions or slag. If it was general corrosion then once the zinc wears off you'd expect the damage to be more "even", not what appears to be very deep pitting. Something is really wrong there and I'm leaning to a material defect in the wire itself. Maybe I can come up with some "older" ACCO BBB or G4 chain from one of the many salvaged boats here in the east coast between Jacksonville and Beaufort. I have a contact with one of the guys hauling away the boats to scrap them and maybe he can hook me up. Based on what I see in Capta's chain and the discussions from sailors like you with chain 10 years or older it may be that the general quality has declined over the past few years.

 

[Ron20324]

A while back I read a magazine article about chain, and they said if you are down in the islands- either ocean-, and your BBB needs to be replace, you may have a difficult time finding it. One thing you could do is put a length of rope between two 100-foot chains. Actually, it was probably that same article that suggested 50 feet of chain, 50 line, chain, line. That way the chain deals with whatever is on the bottom, and the rope lightens the weight.

 

[ifmdalvey]

A video of chain manufacturing for those that don't know how.