Re-coring project underway

May 6, 2010
472
1984 Oday 39 79 Milwaukee
Got both side decks opened up and core removed from the main cut outs. Still need to dig the core out of the margins which I left so that I can grind a bevel for the new glass and yet stay off the smooth area of gelcoat which I don't want to have to paint. I will finish the decks with Kiwi Grip which I used when I re-cored the cabin top. The genoa tracks and chainplates had plywood under them - not looking forward to digging that out from the track areas :(.
 

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Sep 23, 2009
1,477
O'Day 34-At Last Rock Hall, Md
Nice work! How did you make the curved and straight cuts so smooth? I confess that I envy your boat shed.
 
May 6, 2010
472
1984 Oday 39 79 Milwaukee
My "boat shed" is indoor storage at the yard where I normally store outside! A little more expensive, but I couldn't do this project under shrinkwrap due to having to remove the stanchions.

I cut the starboard side using a Fein MultiMaster, which was kind of slow, the port side I did with a 6" Makita battery powered circular saw, which made a little more dust but worked much better - I had all the cuts on the port side done in 10 minutes, where I probably spend 45 cutting the starboard side. Removing the core from those sections took hours, as it is still bonded tenaciously to the glass, and extracting the core from the margins will probably take another 16 - 24 hours unless I can come up with a better method. I am trying to figure out if I can mount a 7 1/4" circular saw blade on my 7" variable speed polisher and attach it with a countersunk screw so that I can run the blade flush with the deck - this would give me the ability to use a lower controlled speed, and might do a better job of grinding the core out of the margins. As is, I use the MultiMaster to cut the core loose from the underside of the top glass and from the bottom glass, but then it is a matter of digging it out with various hand tools in small bits and pieces. The glass surfaces are not perfectly even, so the tool blade does not always cut the core flush with the glass, and any little bits that don't get removed make the insertion of new core difficult.
 
Jan 27, 2008
3,092
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
Just an idea, maybe you could find a milling cutter that would fit an electric drill to remove the core under the glass areas. Here's a link to what I was thinking. Cutting wood is easy for a milling cutter so speeds and feeds aren't critical, you might find something cheaper than this with a little shopping around. http://drillsandcutters.com/3-8-hss-t-slot-cutter/
Here's a router bit that might also work, depending on how deep you need to reach under the glass lip. http://www.rockler.com/freud-52-522-t-slotting-cutter-bit-1-1-8-dia-x-13-16-h-x-1-2-sh
 
May 6, 2010
472
1984 Oday 39 79 Milwaukee
Well, I have the majority of the core dug out of the "margins" - mostly done with the MultiMaster, a long screwdriver and a couple of pry bars used as scrapers. I then rigged up a sanding disk sandwich on my 7" polisher to clean up the underside of the top deck skin as well as the top of the bottom skin. I peeled the foam backing off the disk, and used double sided carpet tape to attach the sanding disks. I had to re-tape a few times during the process when they came loose. All in all it worked pretty well, but fitting new core into the margins is a pain as the gap is not a consistent 1/2", so it requires sanding and fitting each piece along the way - very tedious!
20151114_084228.jpg 20151114_083053.jpg
 
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Sep 23, 2009
1,477
O'Day 34-At Last Rock Hall, Md
Very clever idea on the double sided sanding disc!:cowbell:
I have never done this job (yet) so I am curious if you could just use thickened epoxy and not have to fit each piece due to differences in thickness.
You are making very fast progress, looks good for January launch!?
 
May 6, 2010
472
1984 Oday 39 79 Milwaukee
I am replacing half inch core with half inch core - and sanding the core down as needed to fit under the uneven areas of the margins. The next size smaller core (that I am aware of) is 3/8, and while it would probably fit in the tight spots, it would require a fair amount of thickened epoxy to fill the voids. I would have two concerns - how legitimate they are, I am not really sure. First is that I have no way of making sure I had solid coverage, if the epoxy sags or runs out, I could have voids. Second is that epoxy is fairly brittle and I don't really know if I need to be concerned about it cracking or fracturing if it is say 1/8th of an inch or greater between the core and the existing glass? So I do the best I can to make sure the core is a close fit.
 
Jun 8, 2004
853
Pearson 26W Marblehead
Very clever idea on the double sided sanding disc!:cowbell:
I have never done this job (yet) so I am curious if you could just use thickened epoxy and not have to fit each piece due to differences in thickness.
You are making very fast progress, looks good for January launch!?
 
Jun 5, 2010
1,136
Hunter 25 Burlington NJ
Sefuller, remember that the remaining layer of 'glass (under the core) is not strong enough to support the needed loads if all you do is replace the foam with something equally non-structural, like blocks of foam (or something worse). Most people removing core from the top make this error. The only correct way to proceed from where you are is to grind back the top surface of whatever 'glass is left and bond your new layers to the existing.

Also I would not use epoxy for this-- it's too brittle, as you suggest. Using polyester or vinylester would be my first choice for this.

Forgive me if I sound like I'm talking downwards at you-- I don't mean to be. I've just seen this done wrong too many times! :doh:

For other people, I did discuss in my blog how to remedy soft or wet core without cutting away the vital upper layer of deck. My 'patented mooyock method' is really the ONLY way to go when you are fixing this problem near deck-mounted mast steps and other bits of important hardware. Too many people cut out and install a block; but they're not thinking of laminate strength or block-to-core adhesion. And the very worst thing is using some sort of filler, like a block of Starboard, that won't bond to anything at all, as though all that's needed is to take up space. Remember that, in the factory, the lower layer of 'glass, beneath the core, is laid-up when the deck is still in the mold, bottom-side-up, and they're relying on the upper layer (which goes in first, against the mold) of biaxial or triaxial for the real strength. On most production boats the lower layer is only about 2-3 payers of mat, sometimes even just cloth-- hardly enough to support your weight when it's in prime condition, certainly not enough to be relied-upon to hold up a bunch of blocks and individual patches of core that aren't otherwise bonded to anything. So it all comes down to reapplying a really good, structural upper deck layer... because in effect you are rebuilding, not repairing, the boat. :badbad:
 
May 6, 2010
472
1984 Oday 39 79 Milwaukee
I am replacing the areas of compression - genoa tracks, chainplates etc with marine plywood saturated with thinned epoxy, and using end grain balsa core for the rest. After I get the core glued in, I will grind a bevel around all the margins and use a few layers of 1708 biaxial with mat. I have used epoxy for all of my other re-core projects as I will with this one - just trying to make sure it is primarily a bonding agent - not a filler. I will pot all of the deck penetrations with thickened epoxy however.
 
Sep 23, 2009
1,477
O'Day 34-At Last Rock Hall, Md
Sefuller,
I hope to rebed by genoa tracks this year. What is under them? Just plywood? Any hints for removing them?
Thanks.
Larry
 
May 6, 2010
472
1984 Oday 39 79 Milwaukee
Just plywood under the genoa tracks Larry. No real trick to removing them - some of the nuts were hard to get a socket on inside - the holes they drilled in the liner are the exact same size as the backing washers - at least on my boat. The last few on the port side I believe you need to reach up above the liner to access, and on starboard the last few are in the cockpit locker. I would be shocked if your plywood is dry...
 
Jun 5, 2010
1,136
Hunter 25 Burlington NJ
I am replacing the areas of compression - genoa tracks, chainplates etc with marine plywood saturated with thinned epoxy, and using end grain balsa core for the rest. After I get the core glued in, I will grind a bevel around all the margins and use a few layers of 1708 biaxial with mat. I have used epoxy for all of my other re-core projects as I will with this one - just trying to make sure it is primarily a bonding agent - not a filler. I will pot all of the deck penetrations with thickened epoxy however.
Good. Just be sure that epoxy does get into the plywood!

I have found most 'affordable' okume to be absolute junk-- too many voids. I made floor panels out of 1/2", saturated them in WEST, installed them, and found one of them creaking like it was not screwed down. But it was. Tapping it I located major voids within the 13"-wide strip I had cut, not evident from the endgrain, about 7" wide, in like the 4th layer (it's 7-ply). Floor was creaking like an old house. I drilled 5/16" holes into the void, discovering the shocking extent of it, and flooded it with epoxy till it came up in the holes (same as I do with deck core). It took about 30 strokes' worth in about five separate pours to fill it. The holes now preclude neatly varnishing the floor boards as I meant to do; they'll have to be painted now.

I also built a 7"-high bulkhead at the aft end of the cabin sole that supports the ladder. This was 'signboard-grade' okume, 3/4", about 11 plies, with MDO on one side and high-pressure overlay the other. I coated this in WEST and bedded it against the hull (filling voids) with 5200. Three years later it was rotten inside. This was okume meant for outdoor use. I had to drill down (through the mahogany cap on it) into the core and flood this with WEST, the only option to ripping out half the new cabinetry in the boat. As of now it's essentially a laminate-and-MDO shell filled with epoxy, but it was a lot of work (and I had to paint over the mahogany because of the filled holes).

I would not use 'construction'-, 'builder'-, or 'cabinet-grade' okume plywood again at all (not even for nonessential projects). The best results I have had have been with 'cabinet-grade' lauan plywood, like what you would make new kitchen or video-gear cabinets with. It is solid-core, it takes epoxy very well, does not kill sawblades and router bitts, and looks really nice when varnished. I get mine from a real lumberyard (not HoDePo).

In many cases, especially with advent of saturation epoxies, 'marine-grade' is overrated (meaning: 'overpriced'). Especially when it's just fir, the quality is just not what it was in the 1970s. My 41-year-old boat was built with 'exterior'- and 'interior'-grade construction plywood and most of the original structures (bunktops, bulkheads) are perfectly fine.

I hope that epoxy you're using is like Smith's! :waycool:
 
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May 6, 2010
472
1984 Oday 39 79 Milwaukee
I am just using marine grade fir plywood from a reputable lumber yard - it is stamped Marine Grade which I am assuming just means waterproof glue and no voids in the plys. Since I am going to be saturating it and isolating it, I am reasonably confident it would serve as intended. Under the genoa tracks I have cut pieces approximately 4" x no more than 24" long, with a quarter inch space between so that I can completely isolate each one from the other with thickened epoxy. With potted holes for fasteners, and this isolation system it is difficult to conceive of water getting into the plywood but if by chance it does, it should not be able to migrate very far.
 
Sep 23, 2009
1,477
O'Day 34-At Last Rock Hall, Md
I am very impressed with your workmanship. Would there be any advantage to using plywood for all the areas? I am thinking of strength, long-term resistance to water damage and easy of fitting less pieces together?
 
Sep 28, 2008
922
Canadian Sailcraft CS27 Victoria B.C.
I am very impressed with your workmanship. Would there be any advantage to using plywood for all the areas? I am thinking of strength, long-term resistance to water damage and easy of fitting less pieces together?
Plywood is not a good core material. It is heavier thasn balsa or foam and if water does get in it travels easily throughout the plywood. End grain balsa has the grain running vertically rather than horizontally and minimizes water travel.
 
May 6, 2010
472
1984 Oday 39 79 Milwaukee
Port side after laying up three layers of 1708 biaxial cloth in West epoxy.20151212_104522.jpg20151213_053317.jpg
 
May 6, 2010
472
1984 Oday 39 79 Milwaukee
Plywood is not a good core material. It is heavier thasn balsa or foam and if water does get in it travels easily throughout the plywood. End grain balsa has the grain running vertically rather than horizontally and minimizes water travel.
Understanding the limitation of plywood I still chose to use it for specific areas but used balsa for the majority of the core. Under the genoa tracks, I used sections of plywood no more than 24" long, and saturated them with thinned epoxy, then isolated them from each other and from the surrounding balsa core with a margin of thickened epoxy. All of the fastener holes for the track are also potted with thickened epoxy. The alternative core materials I explored (mainly G10) for the loaded areas were expensive and in the end I decided that the original construction had lasted 30+ years, and the precautions I took with this installation make me reasonably sure it will outlast me.
 
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