Raymarine MX-5 wheel pilot

[RAD]

Over the weekend while Defender was having there annual warehouse sale I called and ordered a MX-5 wheel autopilot now I'm aware that this is still not in stock so for the 75 dollar difference between the older S1 I figured I can always tell Defender that I'm not waiting any more if Raymarine drags out shipping these units to send me the older S1.Today I called Raymarine and was told June before they ship and I'm thinkingthat the only difference I see is the S1 has a rudder reference (that looks like APITA to install) but the X5 has a gyro built in and no rudder reference.So any one have any input on the difference between the older and the newshould I wait for the newer one or get the older S1 and regret laterI value any and all opinions

 

[higgs]

I have theS 1

I had to send back my S1 for reprogramming as it had problems here on Lake Ontario. I have not used it since the repair, which was free ( except for my shipping TO Ray). I would think they have taken care of units since then, but you never now.I would STRONGLY recommend that you do a below decks installation. It is significantly more money, but once spent, you will never regret the decision. The difference is significant.

 

[RAD]

Higgs

I here ya about the below installation but the 1500 additional dollars is the problem now,but at any time I can add the linear drive unit and leave the disconnected wheel pilot on and have the best of both worlds.I was sailing off shore with a boat that had a linear drive fail and we had to go below and disconnect the rod cause it failed in the stuck I'm not moving position

 

[Nice N Easy]

I went ahead with the S1

I just ordered a new S1 from Defender. I have talked to every Tom, Dick and Harry about the new X-5, and every one of them has a different answer. I have heard everything from April 1 on. Most sincere and honest sounding answer I have received was that they are having problems with it and earliest available date will be July 1. ( Actually the date was June 22 ) Since I have a trip planned long before that, I just went ahead and ordered the S1.

 

[higgs]

Nothing is perfect

If perfection were the goal we would be better to stay in our living rooms playing video games.I have had problems with my below deck unit that I mentioned in my earlier post. APs are not perfect and every system seems to act up once in a while. My below deck unit steers in conditions no above unit would work. i certainly can commiserate about the $. Been there - done that - and am still doing that.

 

[RAD]

Phil,

I'm thinking the same about the S1 cause my cruising trip is first week of July and I'll be busy I'm sure with plenty of other stuff than dealing with an auto pilot installation at the last hour.If I had not heard that they were coming out with this X5 I would have bought the S1 along time agohey, thanks for talking with Tom,Dick and Harry cause I spoke to Chris today(email)and he told me June but would not commit to a date and hearing that they have problems is not a good sign.

 

[Nice N Easy]

Just a question

Just a small question for you Higgs. And please, this is in no way meant to be disrespectable, or abusive. What kind of weather, that your auto pilot will work in, and a wheel drive model won't work in, do you use the auto pilot. If it gets too snotty for the auto pilot to handle,or even close to that, I am going to be at the helm. IMHO the auto pilot is not meant to be a rough weather instrument. At least on the size of boats I am likely to be on.

 

[Ken]

ST4000+ is good, S1 is better ...

I've the ST4000+ with MKII Wheel drive. I thought it was pretty good and decent AP until I tried my friend's S1. Outstanding peformance. Keep a good course even with ocassional wind bust. Now I resort to installing a Rudder Ref Unit to try get my ST4000+ to perform like the S1. Keeping my finger cross.

 

[Bob]

I'm waiting...for now.

I'm also in the AP market and like another poster, was just about to put in an order on an S1 util I saw the X-5. Now I'm thinking of putting the order in at Defender then can bail later and change to the S1 if I get tired of waiting. I have a small trip coming up where the AP would be nice, but doesn't drive my decision making. I hate to miss out on an updated model that I'll have for a long time just to get something a few weeks earlier. I guess the interesting things is how much better will the X-5 be with the gyro? I know an AP can be challenged in a following sea, but I'm assuming the gyro will help improve this...how much is the big question.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Wacky autopilots

Nice n Easy, in partial reply to your question to Higgs, see the link.For others, over the course of the years I've posted many times about the fact that our ST3000 with its built-in compass appears to work in a far superior manner to the reported eccentricities of the ST4000 with its remote flux gate and then the added rudder position sensor.In many cases, the simpler the better. It appears from these reports that Autohelm is finally going back to the future and consolidating all the bits and pieces that they have wasted everyone's time in distributing (i.e., using BOTH meanings of the word: making you put things all over your boats and in selling them to you) over the course of the past few years.Having said that, I'll believe it when I see (or hear about) it.If I was in the market for a new autopilot I would seriously investigate the other manufacturers on the market.

 

[higgs]

Niceneasy

No offense take and I appreciate the clarification. Here on the Great Lakes, 5 foot seas are pretty steep - much steeper than the gulf - and knock a boat around a quite a bit. We get them with 25 kts of wind, so it is not uncommen for us to be out in those conditions. Put them on a quartering sea and many above deck units won't handle it.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Joseph, great photo

Hope it was comfortable coming down off that!Question: have you ever had any expereince with or heard of mounting a tillerpilot to a wheel? (other than a trim tab application)

 

[sailaway78]

Clarifications and what not

Our normal seas are as a very general rule, under 5', and fairly well spaced. But when it gets snotty in the gulf, it can get really snotty, and do it in a hurry. Steep 20 footers are not unheard of, and they get very steep and close together. A big thunderstorm offshore will kick up some nasty stuff. And the fronts that come boiling through in the fall and winter can be even worse. I never use the auto pilot when it goes to hell. I don't trust them, any of them, to react quick enough. And don't tell me about a long and tiring passage making a difference. When it gets bad out there, no way I can sleep anyway.

 

[Joseph Shirley]

Stu - No, But it might work if your wheel had

lets say, less than 3 turns lock to lock, Probably better if only 2. Most wheels have too many turns.Of course it would work better in calm, flat water. so if that was all you had, it would be better than just lashing the wheel to make a quick head call.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Thanks, Joseph, that's what I was thinking

Reason I asked, on this thread, is that with all the bad vibes over the years about Autohelm these days, and their pricing plans for the future (yikes!), and the fact that the ST3000 is discontinued and seemingly hard to find (I've tried), that a backup autopilot of the ST1000 or 2000 variety might not be such a bad alternative. With a small shelf for the base and a connector for the "plunger" whipped onto a wheel spoke, it'd work for the conditions you described. Our boat goes to windward hands free, so I'm not looking for something to do that because our boat balances so well. It's more for dull motoring when conditions permit. Downwind, none of 'em work unless we're talking about the "professional" models.

 

[higgs]

Stu and "professional models"

All the professional models are below deck. There is a reason for that. Why not go the "professional" route?

 

[sandpiper10471]

Tillermaster

When I bought my MacGregor 65 a few years ago she came with the original Tillermaster pilot from 1984. I found on board the original bill of sale and if memory serves it cost about $1500 back then. It was a big grey box with a piston which attached to a grid mounted on the wheel. As such, it would only turn the 5' diameter wheel from about 10 o'clock to 2 o'clock. However, it performed flawlessly both upwind and down for about 800 miles until a capacitor burned out. That capacitor turned out to be a very difficult replacement. So yes, a tiller pilot can be successfully used on a wheel but with limitations.The unit worked as the Mac, even at about 24 000 lbs., was the best sailing, best balanced boat I have ever been on and kept up with the waves downwind. I replaced it with a Simrad wheel pilot which worked very well but was not used in hard conditions. When that unit crapped out after 4 years of ocean sailing, it was replaced with a Raymarine S1 which never performed as well and lacked power.Now that I have a Hunter 37 cutter I would love to have another Simrad but it seems they are no longer in production. Don't know what I will do now as the wheel pilots by Rays are undersized for even this boat and the below decks are too $$$$$. I was thinking of using a tiller pilot mounted to an emergency tiller. Anybody ever tried this?Or perhaps I will go with a used servo-pendulum wind vane with a small tiller pilot attached to it for calm days.

 

[Stu Jackson]

higgs, professional models are all too

tall for me! After reading about issues folks have had with Raymarine products these past five years, I would look for alternate manufacturers if, and when, I decide to replace the ST3000 we have. Sandpiper's reply (thanks) encourages me to consider a tillerpilot for the type of sailing we do and the boat balance we have. I understand that the PMs are belowdecks, too, and the C34s and our C36 brethren have limited belowdecks space as well documented on our websites. The whole addition of the separate rudder sensor compared to the well behaved simple ST3000 all-in-one package makes me question the whole arrangement of the new pilots. Now they're claiming that they can make one without a separate rudder sensor or separate fluxgate. What's so new, they did it for years, then separated the sensor and fluxgate, which caused nothing but problems. Go figure...It's nice to have options.I think the tillerpilot connected to the emergency rudder would work IF there is enough distance between the rudder stock and the attachment point. Some of the emergency rudders are so short that there just wouldn't be enough distance for the leverage required. I'm sure it wouldn't work on our boat.

 

[sandpiper10471]

Leverage

Stu - you are right about leverage. However try holding the wheel about 8 inches from the hub or a tiller 18 inches or so from the stock and you know what an electronic pilot is up against. Amazing power these things have. Tiller pilots get mounted surprisingly close to the rudder head. I don't have the measurements available right now but when I installed mine on a 30 footer I was very doubtful but the thing steered remarkably well. Steer for half an hour as above and you will know why pilots can kill your batteries!