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Rating vs Boat vs Ability

Nov 8, 2010
11,385
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Not taken as disparaging. "Serious" is too subjective, we need a better word to get our meaning across that doesn't carry any unintended attitude.
My point to DayDreamer and other late model Hunter owners on this forum that may race or want to race is, it is very difficult in the windward/leeward PHRF world to be successful limited with the small jib. It does not seem to be accounted for in the ratings in most areas. I'm not saying there is a bias against late model Hunters and that committees don't want them to finish well and make other boats look bad, that's just the way it is. That's why I race in the club class along with the other reasons involving the time and cost to "seriously" race a boat. It does penalize better crews, but it makes you improve where you can if you want to keep finishing well.
Normally jib-driven boats do just fine upwind. BlueJ is jib-only. The extra apparent wind speed while going upwind helps greatly. Downwind without a kite and you’re hosed. The big weakness of this sailplan is light-moderate close reaching under jib. That’s why code 0s were invented!

In any case, the goal is to get more boats on the starting line. Sounds likes it’s working at your club!
 
Aug 22, 2017
1,608
Hunter 26.5 West Palm Beach
Normally jib-driven boats do just fine upwind. BlueJ is jib-only. The extra apparent wind speed while going upwind helps greatly. ...

I must surly be miss reading this. Are you saying that your boat has no main sail? Are you saying that the main is inconsequential? Are you commenting that your only foredeck sail is the jib?
 
Oct 19, 2017
6,861
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
He's saying the primary driving force is from the jib. The main is definitely involved, but forward drive comes from the jib. Headsail might be a better general term.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,385
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I must surly be miss reading this. Are you saying that your boat has no main sail? Are you saying that the main is inconsequential? Are you commenting that your only foredeck sail is the jib?
No sorry, that wasn’t completely clear - when I said Jib only I mean that it can’t fly a Genoa.
 
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Likes: JimInPB
Nov 8, 2010
11,385
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
He's saying the primary driving force is from the jib. The main is definitely involved, but forward drive comes from the jib. Headsail might be a better general term.

-Will (Dragonfly)
No I specifically meant jib.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,385
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
As an aside,

The Fractional, non-overlapping rig has actually become the dominate rig in racing sailboats over the last 20 years. Its been over that long since a masthead raceboat has been developed, and in the same period unless it was designed to be optimized for light air PHRF it’s been non-overlapping.

Over this time, the rigs have become less fractional (9/10ths typical) and the mast has moved back, now giving about a 65/45 split on the sailplan.

You have to race with spins and maybe a code zero to have a chance. These are not JAM boats.

Very light airs will always be a weakness.
 
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Likes: Will Gilmore
Jan 22, 2008
757
Hunter 340 Baytown TX
Upwind in very light airs, we can do well. Around 8 knots apparent, boats with 150's start passing us, over 15 knots apparent, we make too much leeway with the wing keel and sagging headstay to point with anybody. We've got about a 60/40 split. I have an old 135% code 0 and new 160% code 3. If I could only have one along for a race, it would be the code 0. If the winds are light enough to fly our code 0 close reaching, it makes a huge difference. I've went way off course at the start of a last leg to get the angle that can hold the code 0 to the finish and passed a half a dozen boats and came in second.
I would like to think my boat has the non overlapping jib because it's been the trend in racing, but I think the small jib on Hunters was designed to be easy to tack and handle and cheaper to manufacture. But, we tend to do very well against other boats with non overlapping rigs, like new Jeanneaus.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,385
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Upwind in very light airs, we can do well. Around 8 knots apparent, boats with 150's start passing us, over 15 knots apparent, we make too much leeway with the wing keel and sagging headstay to point with anybody. We've got about a 60/40 split. I have an old 135% code 0 and new 160% code 3. If I could only have one along for a race, it would be the code 0. If the winds are light enough to fly our code 0 close reaching, it makes a huge difference. I've went way off course at the start of a last leg to get the angle that can hold the code 0 to the finish and passed a half a dozen boats and came in second.
I would like to think my boat has the non overlapping jib because it's been the trend in racing, but I think the small jib on Hunters was designed to be easy to tack and handle and cheaper to manufacture. But, we tend to do very well against other boats with non overlapping rigs, like new Jeanneaus.
You're right, I guessing that Hunter went to fractional non-overlapping due to ease of sailing handling. Not sure cost factored. But it was a good call. With a SA/D ration of near 20 even with the jib, you're no slouch in the power department. You're right the shoal keel will hurt, best to foot off a bit and not try and point like the others. That will just stall your keel and you'll slide sideways.

Correct headstay sag is KEY on non-overlapping fractional boats... it needs to be soft and deep for shape in light airs, and tight to keep the boat upright in a blow. We adjust ours every time out in 4 knot wind bands. Never adjusted a B&R rig like that, but in general adjusting your V1s will stiffen/loosen your headstay.