Raritan Fresh Head and pressurized water supply

May 11, 2009
52
2 MK IV Warwick, RI
http://raritaneng.com/raritan-product-line/finished-goods/fresh-head/

I see that this "Fresh Head" has been discussed quite a bit, but I have not seen an answer to what I am wondering, which is, how does one supply "pressurized" water to feed this toilet, and keep it safe?

On my 30 foot sailboat, there is no pressurized water. I am picking up a new boat I'm picking up soon (well, new to me) and maybe the issue is I'm not familiar with boat plumbing. So what do I need to to to be able to use this toilet, from a supply standpoint.
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,077
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
There is a download copy of the owner's manual on your link.

It requires boat pressure water.

There are lots of alternative fresh water heads which have their own electric water pump and ensure no connection with the tank(s) used for potable water, i.e., no chance of cross-contamination
 
May 11, 2009
52
2 MK IV Warwick, RI
There is a download copy of the owner's manual on your link.

It requires boat pressure water.

There are lots of alternative fresh water heads which have their own electric water pump and ensure no connection with the tank(s) used for potable water, i.e., no chance of cross-contamination
I guess my question was, where does the water pressure come from. As I read more I see that it's the pump for the shower and such that the toilet draws from. There is a also a system called "Fresh Flush" that is kind of a holding tank, similar to a real toilet in your house. So I see there are several options.
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,709
- - LIttle Rock
The Raritan Fresh Head is the only manual marine toilet designed to use water from the boat's potable fresh water supply. Water pressure is created by the boat's fresh water pump (which you say you don't have, but that's unlikely on a 30' boat that has a fresh water tank unless it's been removed). It's a definite no-no to connect any sea water toilet to it, but any toilet that's DESIGNED to use water from the boat's pressurized fresh water system can safely be connected to it. There is no intake pump in a toilet designed to use pressurized fresh water...it's teed into the cold water line that supplies the head sink...the flush button open a valve that allows water to flow into the toilet...like opening the faucet on a sink. On some toilets it's an electric solenoid valve.

There are lots of alternative fresh water heads which have their own electric water pump and ensure no connection with the tank(s) used for potable water
Name one. 'There are people who've installed separate dedicated flush water tanks to supply fresh water to their sea water toilets (that's essentially what the Fresh Flush is), but I've never heard of any that fit your description.
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,077
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
Name one. 'There are people who've installed separate dedicated flush water tanks to supply fresh water to their sea water toilets (that's essentially what the Fresh Flush is), but I've never heard of any that fit your description.
Mine is a Raritan SeaEra something I connected to a dedicated tank. Forgot the minutia. Glad to enlighten you. My neighbor has one similar but a different brand. It seems these are ubiquitous.
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,709
- - LIttle Rock
You haven't enlightened me...allow me to enlighten you! What you have is not an "alternative fresh water head." No toilet mfr makes such system. What you do have is just a sea water version of the Raritan SeaEra with the inlet line connected to a separate dedicated flush water tank that you or a PO installed instead of a thru-hull...something that can be done with any manual or electric sea water toilet. Your toilet's intake pump pulls the water out of the tank exactly the same way it pulls it out of the sea. How the tank gets filled has nothing to do with the toilet itself. It's no more an "alternative fresh water head" than a toilet with the flush water inlet line teed into the head sink drain line...which can also be done with any manual or electric sea water toilet.

If someone wants to connect a toilet designed to use pressurized fresh water to separate dedicated water tank, they can...but that's a WAY over the top overabundance of caution 'cuz there's no need to. It's only sea water toilets that should never be connected to the fresh water plumbing...it's safe to connect any toilet that's designed to use pressurized fresh water to it...if it weren't no mfr would make one.
 
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May 11, 2009
52
2 MK IV Warwick, RI
Thanks for your reply Peggie..

The Raritan Fresh Head is the only manual marine toilet designed to use water from the boat's potable fresh water supply. Water pressure is created by the boat's fresh water pump (which you say you don't have, but that's unlikely on a 30' boat that has a fresh water tank unless it's been removed).
Well my existing boat, a Scampi 30 MKii, made in the early 70's, may have had a pressure system at one time, but I don't think so. There is one fresh water tank connected to a sink with a foot pump. There used to be a sink over the toilet but I never had it. It does not matter; the boat does not have one now and I'm upgrading to a Beneteau that does have pressurized fresh water.

It's a definite no-no to connect any sea water toilet to it, but any toilet that's DESIGNED to use water from the boat's pressurized fresh water system can safely be connected to it.
Yes I see that from my research, which largely consisted of reading your many informative posts.

I also agree that a separate, dedicated fresh water tank just for flushing is inefficient and just one more thing to maintain and a poor solution. I prefer to keep a manual toilet, so, apparently, at this time, there are just two options: The Raritan Fresh Head toilet (or the equivalent retrofit) and the Fresh Flush device. I have to do more research but it seems the Fresh Flush has the advantage of reduced expense and compatibility with any manual marine toilet, while the Raritan will consume less space and keep all the parts together. One thing I saw about the Fresh Flush is that it says not to use a Y valve to switch from freshwater to seawater, even downstream of the device. If the Raritan toilet allows for that then it might be the better choice, since it can be used even when the fresh water has run out.

But a I said, I have more research to do...

UPDATE: Actually the entire Fresh Head can be had for about $365 and the retrofit kit for less than $200. That makes cost less of a factor in the decision.
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,709
- - LIttle Rock
I prefer to keep a manual toilet, so, apparently, at this time, there are just two options: The Raritan Fresh Head toilet (or the equivalent retrofit) and the Fresh Flush device.
The Raritan Fresh Head is the only manual toilet designed to use fresh water. There is no version of it that can also use sea water. Nor is there any other manual toilet that can both. You wouldn't need the Fresh Flush with it because you'd already be using fresh water. You do realize that it has a $300 price tag? Not only that, the ONLY thing is does is reduce odor caused by sea water left to sit and stagnate in the intake of a sea water toilet. If you opt for a sea water toilet instead of the Fresh Head, you can accomplish that for less than $20 by rerouting the head intake line to tee into the head sink drain line.

UPDATE: Actually the entire Fresh Head can be had for about $365 and the retrofit kit for less than $200. That makes cost less of a factor in the de
What would you retrofit it to??
 
Dec 19, 2006
5,809
Hunter 36 Punta Gorda
I have the sea era and use sea water most of the time and have the reroute from sink to head and use the sink tee into head to rinse with fresh water often and it does help keep any smell away for sure and flushing with fresh water keeps the guts very clean for sure,that has kept me from
needing to change joker value for many years.
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,709
- - LIttle Rock
You're forgetting that all the flushes that go through a joker valve stretches the slit until it's no longer a one way valve, it's become a hole that can no lnger prevent a back up caused by a clog or blocked tank vent from flooding the bowl. If it's been more than two years since you replaced yours, that slit has become a hole big enough to stick your finger through.

Rinsing out the system with fresh water before the boat sits helps to reduce mineral buildup on it and the insides of the hoses, but it doesn't prevent that entirely.

A joker valve isn't an expensive part...it should be replaced in electric toilets at least every couple of years, at least annually in manual toilets.
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,077
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
You haven't enlightened me...allow me to enlighten you! What you have is not an "alternative fresh water head." No toilet mfr makes such system. What you do have is just a sea water version of the Raritan SeaEra with the inlet line connected to a separate dedicated flush water tank that you or a PO installed instead of a thru-hull...something that can be done with any manual or electric sea water toilet. Your toilet's intake pump pulls the water out of the tank exactly the same way it pulls it out of the sea. How the tank gets filled has nothing to do with the toilet itself. It's no more an "alternative fresh water head" than a toilet with the flush water inlet line teed into the head sink drain line...which can also be done with any manual or electric sea water toilet.

If someone wants to connect a toilet designed to use pressurized fresh water to separate dedicated water tank, they can...but that's a WAY over the top overabundance of caution 'cuz there's no need to. It's only sea water toilets that should never be connected to the fresh water plumbing...it's safe to connect any toilet that's designed to use pressurized fresh water to it...if it weren't no mfr would make one.
If we can agree to not debate minutia, it's a toilet! Not quantum physics.

The toilet doesn't know where the water originates. And all it takes to ensure no cross-contamination is some common sense. Are we done?
 
May 11, 2009
52
2 MK IV Warwick, RI
The Raritan Fresh Head is the only manual toilet designed to use fresh water. There is no version of it that can also use sea water. Nor is there any other manual toilet that can both.
I don't understand. Are you saying in a fresh water toilet, putting sea water through it would damage it and vice versa, or are you saying they are not designed to prevent flow from fresh to sea or sea to fresh? It seems that hooking my sea water manual toilet to the sink drain would put fresh water through it, so I'm not sure why switching back and forth from sea water to fresh water would be a problem, other than of courtse the back flow / contamination issues (because those issues are handled but the Fresh Head pump or the Fresh Flush device.



You wouldn't need the Fresh Flush with it because you'd already be using fresh water. You do realize that it has a $300 price tag? Not only that, the ONLY thing is does is reduce odor caused by sea water left to sit and stagnate in the intake of a sea water toilet. If you opt for a sea water toilet instead of the Fresh Head, you can accomplish that for less than $20 by rerouting the head intake line to tee into the head sink drain line.
Yes I understand that. I would use either the Raritan Fresh Head or the Fresh Flush. As I said, each has advantages and disadvantages and I have to do that analysis. I realize I could draw from a tee on the sink drain as well.

What would you retrofit it to??
The Raritan Fresh Head can be bought as a complete unit, with the fresh water pump and bowl, or you can buy just the pump as a retrofit for an existing PH series toilet. So if you already have a PH series marine toilet, then all you need is the fresh water pump for about $200.

As it turns out, I see that my new boat has a Jabsco toilet so I won't be able to do the retrofit. Raritan states that the footprint of the entire Fresh Head toilet is compatible with competitor's toilets but there is no list of which ones, so I'll have to get the specs on the Jabsco I have and compare that to the Raritan.

And of course there is still the Fresh Flush device, which is pricy as Peggie said, and also physically large.

My GF has a very sensitive nose, so I am going through this exercise to make minimizing head odors as simple as possible. A 100% fresh water system would do that.
 
Dec 19, 2006
5,809
Hunter 36 Punta Gorda
I think the more fresh water going in to head the less smell from saltwater corrision
and less build up of salt crystals in the large hose going to the holding tank and it has been way more than 2 or 3 years before I needed to change the joker value.
What I have been doing many years with my sea era is keep in dry mod and I added a spray hose
like in my RV toilet hooked to fresh water from my sink and it is right next to my head and no dragging out the shower hose behind the shower door and add fresh water to bowl while I push the flush button,but when fresh water is not readily available like cruising and anchoring out mostly than I switch to sea water intake and use the sink water to flush the head when ever we use the head sink.
My wife likes that our head does not smell and all I know the joker value has lasted a very long time,I don't think it's just good luck.
Nick
 
Apr 6, 2017
7
J-Boat J/24 Home
A pressurized water system is a necessity in the boat for dishwashing, showers and other applications. The on-demand water supply can solve your issue. The pressure switch present on the on-demand water supply can be used to pressure the fresh water. I haven’t seen any such switch in the manual pumps.

Pressurizing the water supply might be an easy and inexpensive job but I suggest you get advice from any commercial plumbing service providers because if anything goes wrong, your boat sinks.
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,709
- - LIttle Rock
I don't understand. Are you saying in a fresh water toilet, putting sea water through it would damage it and vice versa, or are you saying they are not designed to prevent flow from fresh to sea or sea to fresh? It seems that hooking my sea water manual toilet to the sink drain would put fresh water through it, so I'm not sure why switching back and forth from sea water to fresh water would be a problem, other than of courtse the back flow / contamination issues (because those issues are handled but the Fresh Head pump or the Fresh Flush device.
Toilets designed to use pressurized fresh water don't have an intake pump, only a valve or solenoid that works kinda like faucet does to allow and shut off the flow of pressurized water. Without an intake pump to pull water in, there's no way to us sea water in a toilet designed to use pressurized fresh water.

If you want the ability to have it both ways, rerouting the intake line on a sea water toilet to tee into the head sink drain line is the easiest way to do it. Flush with sea water when you want to, close the sink drain seacock and fill the sink with clean fresh water, flush the toilet. Because the seacock is closed, the toilet pulls the water out of the sink.

As it turns out, I see that my new boat has a Jabsco toilet so I won't be able to do the retrofit. Raritan states that the footprint of the entire Fresh Head toilet is compatible with competitor's toilets but there is no list of which ones, so I'll have to get the specs on the Jabsco I have and compare that to the Raritan.
The footprint on all manual Raritan toilets matches the Jabsco manual toilet footprint.
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,709
- - LIttle Rock
Beverly, you would not want to call a household plumber to work on a boat because marine plumbing has almost nothing in common with household plumbing. For example, in a house, there is no water pump, water comes in from the municipal water main. On a boat, all the water is in a tank...a pump pulls water out of it, pressurizes it and distributes it to the faucets. Because the entire system is contained in the boat with no overboard drains, fresh water systems aren't likely to sink a boat.

All sink drains in a house have P-traps...the last thing you'd want on a boat. Household toilets are simple devices that flush via a siphon created by the onrush of water from a flush water tank and are designed to hold water in the bowl...no pumps or valves. Marine toilets do have pumps, valves and some also have motors...most are not designed to hold water in the bowl because the water would end up all over the head when the boat heels. In a house, the toilet flushes into a sewer pipe and leaves the house, either into the municipal sewer system or a septic tank outside the house. On a boat it can go overboard when at sea at least 3 miles from the nearest point of land, but in most waters including yours it has to go into a tank to be held for pumpout and managed to prevent odor while it's in the tank.

Btw...spent a day in Toronto last week...it's a beautiful city!
 
May 11, 2009
52
2 MK IV Warwick, RI
Here it is, March, and sailing is practically around the corner! Time to revisit this issue. @Peggie Hall HeadMistress I bought a copy of your excellent book and learned quite a bit, it's well worth the money to buy and the time to read.

I also reviewed this thread and others:

https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/water-to-flush-the-head.189004/

As Peggie explained in her book, there is no one best system for anyone. I'm still struggling to know what to do.

The current setup is a manjal Jabsco that takes in sea water through a seacock Simple enough, but for reasons I'll never understand, intelligent adults can neither figure out how to work it nor remember how once it's demonstrated. All the confusing markings around the pump handle sure don't help. And remembering how many times to pump? And kids? I have a friend who won't let anyone flush, he tells them to do their thing then he goes and flushes for them.

Anyhow, I have some priorities and they may conflict. I'm looking for a system that is:
1 - Dead simple to operate
2 - Uses fresh water
3 - In the event that I run out of fresh water, can be used with fresh water

The "Fresh Flush" is out. It's big and can't work with seawater any better than anything else, or at least they tell you not to put a switch to draw from a seacock even downstream of this thing.

The Raritan Fresh Head comes back to mind. It's easy to use. You press a lever to add water and pump a handle to vacate the bowl. Downside is that I then need to carry fresh water.

Freshwater weighs 8.34 pounds per gallon and a flush uses about half a gallon or so. If I upgrade my holding tank to 35 gallons from it's current 10 (which still is not much) then I need to carry maybe nearly 100 pounds of fresh water. On a light air race day I prefer not to have to do that (7 people flushing 3 times each is 11 or so gallons).

My sink drain seacock is below the waterline, so if I were to plumb a tee connector at that seacock and feed the toilet from that, I could have people flush with fresh water when we have it, or rinse it with fresh water at the end of each day. That gets away from the whole dead simple thing, especially if a stopper ends up being required to keep air from entering through the drain..

I'm wondering, if I install a Raritan Fresh Head and for whatever reason was out of fresh water (other than drinking water) and wanted to flush with sea water, could I just pour it into the toilet and flush? This is what I'm leaning toward and would appreciate thoughts.
 
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Dec 19, 2006
5,809
Hunter 36 Punta Gorda
Yes any head will do that just pouring water in will work to flush your toilet and basically is what I do most times just easy as having a spray hose hooked into my fresh water system and spraying in the amount of water to flush .
I have the sea era and as said sprayer hose to add water to flush and if I run out of fresh water I turn the the thru hull to allow the sea era to than suck in sea water to flush the system by just pushing the flush button very easy and been doing this for many years.
This sea era was made to draw in sea water by pushing a button and flushing but by shutting the thu hull and dry flushing without sea water also does not hurt the pump and so do mostly use the sprayer fresh water hose to add water for flushing and also controls how much water going into the holding tank and keeps from filling up the the holding tank too fast and using fresh water less smell and less repairs or maintaining.
Nick
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,709
- - LIttle Rock
Anyhow, I have some priorities and they may conflict. I'm looking for a system that is: 1 - Dead simple to operate 2 - Uses fresh water 3 - In the event that I run out of fresh water, can be used with fresh water
This may be a bit of an off-the-wall suggestion for a boat the size of yours, but based on everything you've said, it just might be the best solution for you...'cuz not only does it meet all your criteria, but it weighs a fraction of any marine toilet by itself, not counting the additional weight of the tank and plumbing:

An "MSD" portapotty. The "MSD" designation in the model name/number means it has fittings for a pumpout line and vent line, and is designed to be permanently installed (actually just sturdier brackets than portables, so you could still take it off the boat if you absolutely have to), which means that although it's still called a PORTApotty, you don't have to carry anything off the boat to empty it.

A 5-6 gallon model holds 50-60 flushes...you'd need at least a 30 gal tank to hold that many from a manual marine toilet. No plumbing needed except a vent line and pumpout hose--so no new holes in the boat...You'd use a gallon milk jug to fill the flush water reservoir. And -0- maintenance needed except for rinsing out the tank--which you can do with a bucket while it's being pumped out. It's also a total no-brainer to use.
Total cost including the pumpout hose and vent line is about $200--a fraction of what you'd spend for toilet, tank and all the related plumbing needed. And the best part is, you have all the advantages of a toilet and holding tank without giving up a single square foot of storage space.

As I said...a bit off-the-wall for your boat...but it meets all your criteria and can be replaced with a "real" toilet and tank if/when you sell the boat. Give it some thought.
Check out the Thetford 550P MSD and the Dometic/SeaLand 975MSD Sanipottie
 
May 11, 2009
52
2 MK IV Warwick, RI
Wow thanks Peggie, I read about that in your book but didn't think of trying one. I'll investigate further. Might be hard to get the GF to approve but we'll see ;-)