Now that i'm a new sailboat owner, I have looked into getting some info on radar reflectors in the archives. Narrowed the search for a radar reflector to an echomaster or tri-lens reflector. Comments on echomaster has good results, but have not seen any comments on the tri-lens in the forum.The info that I have found on the tri-lens, states that it out performs the echomaster. Should I spend the $210.00 and get the tri lens or for under $100.00 get the echomaster.
- Status
radar reflector
Thanks for the info Jim,If better results are with the tri-lens I will spend the extra money,as it will be a good investment.Being a new owner of this sail boat safety is my priorty but also watching my dollars+cents
Thanks for the info Jim,If better results are with the tri-lens I will spend the extra money,as it will be a good investment.Being a new owner of this sail boat safety is my priorty but also watching my dollars+cents
neither
Go to the store. Buy some aluminum foil. The store will put it in a plastic bag. When at the boat, take out the aluminum foil. Open the box. Rip out about 6" or however long your reach is. Tear the foil. Crumble the foil and stuff it in the bag. Raise the bag. Done. Cost...a few bucks. This was from PBO who tested this method against the other stuff and found it worked the best.
Go to the store. Buy some aluminum foil. The store will put it in a plastic bag. When at the boat, take out the aluminum foil. Open the box. Rip out about 6" or however long your reach is. Tear the foil. Crumble the foil and stuff it in the bag. Raise the bag. Done. Cost...a few bucks. This was from PBO who tested this method against the other stuff and found it worked the best.
I have a 33 foot aluminum mast and a 14 foot
aluminum boom and 165 feet of 1/4 inch wire rope holding the mast up. I doubt that a bag of aluminum foil will make much difference. Stay out of the shipping channels if you can ,keep a look out , and remember that you are smaller than all of the outher ships.
aluminum boom and 165 feet of 1/4 inch wire rope holding the mast up. I doubt that a bag of aluminum foil will make much difference. Stay out of the shipping channels if you can ,keep a look out , and remember that you are smaller than all of the outher ships.
Mast
The mast on my h336 is aprox 50'x 6", or about 25 sq ft. I fail to understand why that would not be seen better by radar than a tiny store bought reflector. After my first encounter with a laker on Lake Erie in a dense fog(he saw me before I heard him or his warning blast), I put a radar on my boat. I see many small fishing boats with my radar, they do not have radar reflectors. I guess that if you have a wood or carbon fiber mast you should be concerned. I would not travel any distance without radar.
The mast on my h336 is aprox 50'x 6", or about 25 sq ft. I fail to understand why that would not be seen better by radar than a tiny store bought reflector. After my first encounter with a laker on Lake Erie in a dense fog(he saw me before I heard him or his warning blast), I put a radar on my boat. I see many small fishing boats with my radar, they do not have radar reflectors. I guess that if you have a wood or carbon fiber mast you should be concerned. I would not travel any distance without radar.
Ross - you are so right!
Some of the posters here should read the link to the radar test site. It explains exactly what radar is, how and why it works, and why a bag of aluminum foil etc. won't work. It doesn't matter how high your mast is or what it's made of you silly people.
Some of the posters here should read the link to the radar test site. It explains exactly what radar is, how and why it works, and why a bag of aluminum foil etc. won't work. It doesn't matter how high your mast is or what it's made of you silly people.
Rue the day
of the constant bearing. Hopefully you can always see the stern of the cargo ships in your path. Reflections in any combination of 180' will work, but your elliptoid mast is very narrow in the arc that reflects back directly to the radar that's not abeam. It may not even light up one pixel on the screen at long range. I've seen how fast the container ships are going in the shipping lanes by the Channel Islands heading for Long Beach and LA. 6+ times my hull speed leaves no room for mistakes. So far haven't had to meet any "rogue" bow waves. My experiment is to double the reflections and halve the nulls by combining 2 echomasters each hanging in the rain catching position from the ends of a 4' rod offset 180' from each other. No response from the ships so far on its effect. If they see me, they don't care since i'm not in the way. If they don't see me, i think they don't want to have to look for me. Cheaper than the trilens, no permanent mount, and shouldn't the trilens be on a gimbal on a sailboat, just like a radar or a hanging echomaster? Twice the weight, half the risk? Near ports where the big ships are much slower, or very far from shipping lanes like near islands in good visability, i hang just one echomaster.
of the constant bearing. Hopefully you can always see the stern of the cargo ships in your path. Reflections in any combination of 180' will work, but your elliptoid mast is very narrow in the arc that reflects back directly to the radar that's not abeam. It may not even light up one pixel on the screen at long range. I've seen how fast the container ships are going in the shipping lanes by the Channel Islands heading for Long Beach and LA. 6+ times my hull speed leaves no room for mistakes. So far haven't had to meet any "rogue" bow waves. My experiment is to double the reflections and halve the nulls by combining 2 echomasters each hanging in the rain catching position from the ends of a 4' rod offset 180' from each other. No response from the ships so far on its effect. If they see me, they don't care since i'm not in the way. If they don't see me, i think they don't want to have to look for me. Cheaper than the trilens, no permanent mount, and shouldn't the trilens be on a gimbal on a sailboat, just like a radar or a hanging echomaster? Twice the weight, half the risk? Near ports where the big ships are much slower, or very far from shipping lanes like near islands in good visability, i hang just one echomaster.
When you consider how much effort our
military has put into stealth aircraft technology and it turns out that sailboats already possess such, being invisible to ships radar. I have another theory. I know an old curmudgeonly tugboat skipper that has no kind words for pleasure boat operators, says without any regret that a tug with a loaded barge can't avoid a small boat and won't even attempt to do so. On the river here the gravel barges make about 8 knots when they pass the Amtrak bridge and I often hear their whistle but they are already slowing to moor the barge a mile farther down river. If you are in their path they will do the paper work for a collision but they won't strike the bridge or run aground.
military has put into stealth aircraft technology and it turns out that sailboats already possess such, being invisible to ships radar. I have another theory. I know an old curmudgeonly tugboat skipper that has no kind words for pleasure boat operators, says without any regret that a tug with a loaded barge can't avoid a small boat and won't even attempt to do so. On the river here the gravel barges make about 8 knots when they pass the Amtrak bridge and I often hear their whistle but they are already slowing to moor the barge a mile farther down river. If you are in their path they will do the paper work for a collision but they won't strike the bridge or run aground.
AIS instead?
Hello, Has anyone thought of adding AIS instead of a radar reflector? In case you are not aware, AIS info can be found here: http://www.milltechmarine.com/index.html For not much more than a radar reflector you will get a device that will tell you where the big ships are, the direction and speed they are traveling, etc. IMHO, this makes more sense than a radar reflector. Barry
Hello, Has anyone thought of adding AIS instead of a radar reflector? In case you are not aware, AIS info can be found here: http://www.milltechmarine.com/index.html For not much more than a radar reflector you will get a device that will tell you where the big ships are, the direction and speed they are traveling, etc. IMHO, this makes more sense than a radar reflector. Barry
Bottom line on radar reflectors
If you do anything but daysailing in the bay you need one. And I mean a radar reflector and radar. The mast on sailboats is "radar absorbent". You might not see it in time.. (another sailboat). Big deal if you are in the shipping lanes. You need something that is radar reflective. No its not ssndwich wrap and not a tuna fish can. And when I fought the cold war we always thought that a fleet of balsa wood airlplanes would hurt us. I watched my wingman in my former mil days hit a glider made of fiberglass... ring a bell
You need something radar reflective on your mast.. just high enough to see. And we are talking curvature of the earth so six miles is a nice number. Thats on the mast of any sailboat. AIS yes indeed is good but yet another big dollar item. MARPA on the big ships rules. All pathifinder radars can do this. Its a radar intercept basically. You just look at the vector and adjust course to the cold side. What is the cold side? If the vector line is closest to you on the left.. then alter to the left. GO behind them not across the bow. IMHO> Cheers Rick
If you do anything but daysailing in the bay you need one. And I mean a radar reflector and radar. The mast on sailboats is "radar absorbent". You might not see it in time.. (another sailboat). Big deal if you are in the shipping lanes. You need something that is radar reflective. No its not ssndwich wrap and not a tuna fish can. And when I fought the cold war we always thought that a fleet of balsa wood airlplanes would hurt us. I watched my wingman in my former mil days hit a glider made of fiberglass... ring a bell
You need something radar reflective on your mast.. just high enough to see. And we are talking curvature of the earth so six miles is a nice number. Thats on the mast of any sailboat. AIS yes indeed is good but yet another big dollar item. MARPA on the big ships rules. All pathifinder radars can do this. Its a radar intercept basically. You just look at the vector and adjust course to the cold side. What is the cold side? If the vector line is closest to you on the left.. then alter to the left. GO behind them not across the bow. IMHO> Cheers Rick
reflector first, then RADAR, then AIS
Here in Nova Scotia we sail in fog or we don't sail much. EVERYBODY, from little fishing boats on up has radar reflectors. They are passive, which means they work even if you have no power and they don't cost very much. Besides, if you were involved in any sort of incident would you really want to explain to the SAR folks, or your insurance company, or the surviving relatives, why you were sailing in fog with a bag of tin-foil rather than a device tested to have a radar cross-section equivalent of at least 10 square meters? While everybody has reflectors, not everybody has radar, which is one reason why we do! The best reflector in the world won't prevent you from getting hit by a boat which doesn't have radar (Or isn't using it). Radar is also an amazingly valuable navigation tool. One important thing to keep in mind is that a good low-cost radar on a small boat will detect a big boat long before the expensive radar on the big boat will detect your little boat, which can give you a lot more time to alter course to avoid a collision. An AIS receiver is great if you only want to avoid the commercial vessels that are fitted with the transponders: All the other boats are invisible. If you already have radar, AIS provides great supplemental information (such as the vessel name so you can hail them!) and can show you vessels hidden behind headlands and islands. Also, if you have an AIS receiver (as opposed to the transponders that cost multiple boat-bucks) you are invisible on everybody elses AIS displays so, if you decided to get that instead of a radar reflector you are essentially invisible to everybody! So get a good reflector and don't forget the best collision avoidance system of all: Alert, capable crew on deck and watching!
Here in Nova Scotia we sail in fog or we don't sail much. EVERYBODY, from little fishing boats on up has radar reflectors. They are passive, which means they work even if you have no power and they don't cost very much. Besides, if you were involved in any sort of incident would you really want to explain to the SAR folks, or your insurance company, or the surviving relatives, why you were sailing in fog with a bag of tin-foil rather than a device tested to have a radar cross-section equivalent of at least 10 square meters? While everybody has reflectors, not everybody has radar, which is one reason why we do! The best reflector in the world won't prevent you from getting hit by a boat which doesn't have radar (Or isn't using it). Radar is also an amazingly valuable navigation tool. One important thing to keep in mind is that a good low-cost radar on a small boat will detect a big boat long before the expensive radar on the big boat will detect your little boat, which can give you a lot more time to alter course to avoid a collision. An AIS receiver is great if you only want to avoid the commercial vessels that are fitted with the transponders: All the other boats are invisible. If you already have radar, AIS provides great supplemental information (such as the vessel name so you can hail them!) and can show you vessels hidden behind headlands and islands. Also, if you have an AIS receiver (as opposed to the transponders that cost multiple boat-bucks) you are invisible on everybody elses AIS displays so, if you decided to get that instead of a radar reflector you are essentially invisible to everybody! So get a good reflector and don't forget the best collision avoidance system of all: Alert, capable crew on deck and watching!
we're happy with the trilens
the trilens has, in informal testing, worked very well in our cruising area-Salem to gulf of Maine-where you are. since they are what the Navy uses to provide a radar reflector on surfaced subs, I suspect they've tested all the options before selecting-good enough for me
the trilens has, in informal testing, worked very well in our cruising area-Salem to gulf of Maine-where you are. since they are what the Navy uses to provide a radar reflector on surfaced subs, I suspect they've tested all the options before selecting-good enough for me
Peace of mind
is a sonar operator on your boat. They definitely know where every other boat is, with the exception of overhead Japanese fishing trawlers Grew up 5 miles from the submarine capital of the world, several family built them at electric boat, watched them come and go down the Thames. The size of a sub's sail makes a reflector redundant, unless they have some stealth coating now. But the Navy wouldn't hang an echomaster off a nuclear boat, because it looks cheap, and they don't want to be laughed at. I see no point in arguing which reflector is best, just get one. If i didn't have to raise and lower a mast which has to deal with projections fighting highway speed winds trying to rip them off their bracket, i would probably have a trilens also. The main reason is that it's always working, and i don't have to remember to put it up or take it down.
is a sonar operator on your boat. They definitely know where every other boat is, with the exception of overhead Japanese fishing trawlers Grew up 5 miles from the submarine capital of the world, several family built them at electric boat, watched them come and go down the Thames. The size of a sub's sail makes a reflector redundant, unless they have some stealth coating now. But the Navy wouldn't hang an echomaster off a nuclear boat, because it looks cheap, and they don't want to be laughed at. I see no point in arguing which reflector is best, just get one. If i didn't have to raise and lower a mast which has to deal with projections fighting highway speed winds trying to rip them off their bracket, i would probably have a trilens also. The main reason is that it's always working, and i don't have to remember to put it up or take it down.
tri-lens radar reflector
Thanks everyone for the input,decided to pay a bit extra for the tri-lens reflector. Cannot do the radar this year,been buying a lot this first season, hopefully next season it will be in the budget
Thanks everyone for the input,decided to pay a bit extra for the tri-lens reflector. Cannot do the radar this year,been buying a lot this first season, hopefully next season it will be in the budget
Wet Sails
Colin in Nova Scotia, Rick in San Diego, Jimq26 with the West Marine link have accurate comments with regard to radar targets. The point that many boaters don't seem to get is that round targets are NOT reflective (unless you count one pixel as an adequate return). What is counts is the amount of FLAT area that is PERPENDICULAR to the radar transmitter. A round target has, for all intensive purposes, NO FLAT AREA, hence no return. Something not mentioned so far is that the radar transmitter can't see though a wet sail, so, if the sail is between the transmitter and the reflector it basically won't be seen. From all the reflector installations I've seen, basically they are not in the rain-catch position when the boat is sailing so there will be minimum reflected signal anyway. Another item not mentioned so far is the need for appropriate sound signals. The Regs do not require radar or radar reflectors (unless there is a specific area that I'm unaware of) but they do require specific minimum sound signals and in the event of an "incident" I'm sure the status of each boats sound signals will be noted. When I travel in the fog I use an automatic fog horn. Therefore, to be in compliance, the first thing I'd get is an automatic fog horn and go from there. The little air cans won't last any time at all.
Colin in Nova Scotia, Rick in San Diego, Jimq26 with the West Marine link have accurate comments with regard to radar targets. The point that many boaters don't seem to get is that round targets are NOT reflective (unless you count one pixel as an adequate return). What is counts is the amount of FLAT area that is PERPENDICULAR to the radar transmitter. A round target has, for all intensive purposes, NO FLAT AREA, hence no return. Something not mentioned so far is that the radar transmitter can't see though a wet sail, so, if the sail is between the transmitter and the reflector it basically won't be seen. From all the reflector installations I've seen, basically they are not in the rain-catch position when the boat is sailing so there will be minimum reflected signal anyway. Another item not mentioned so far is the need for appropriate sound signals. The Regs do not require radar or radar reflectors (unless there is a specific area that I'm unaware of) but they do require specific minimum sound signals and in the event of an "incident" I'm sure the status of each boats sound signals will be noted. When I travel in the fog I use an automatic fog horn. Therefore, to be in compliance, the first thing I'd get is an automatic fog horn and go from there. The little air cans won't last any time at all.
Do you have radar?????
Anybody who does have radar knows this is all BS. First I have to say that ships pick me up on radar when we are heading head on and I don't have a reflector. How do I know, because they break out the spotlight to see who it is. They do this whether I have my radar on or not. Second, I have radar and I pick up all boats, whether they have a reflector or not...whether they are small plastic speed boats or sailboats. Hell, I even pick up channel markers. If you have the gain and other settings right, any radar will pick up a sailboat. The question is, how fine tuned are their settings? If the sea is nasty, then it makes it a lot harder for their radar to see you. If the sea is normal or less, they'll pick you up if they are paying attention or have an alarm set. As for the mast...sure...there are angles where the reflection is narrow, but it goes up many feet so enough is returned.
Anybody who does have radar knows this is all BS. First I have to say that ships pick me up on radar when we are heading head on and I don't have a reflector. How do I know, because they break out the spotlight to see who it is. They do this whether I have my radar on or not. Second, I have radar and I pick up all boats, whether they have a reflector or not...whether they are small plastic speed boats or sailboats. Hell, I even pick up channel markers. If you have the gain and other settings right, any radar will pick up a sailboat. The question is, how fine tuned are their settings? If the sea is nasty, then it makes it a lot harder for their radar to see you. If the sea is normal or less, they'll pick you up if they are paying attention or have an alarm set. As for the mast...sure...there are angles where the reflection is narrow, but it goes up many feet so enough is returned.
Refuse to purchase things of fering questionable
results. All these radar deflectors depend on the sending unit, distance, gain setting and the abilities and alertness of the operator among other things. The role played by these reflectors is minimal. If you like to shove money down the drain please make a taxable contribution to my Mustang Cobra acquisition fund.
results. All these radar deflectors depend on the sending unit, distance, gain setting and the abilities and alertness of the operator among other things. The role played by these reflectors is minimal. If you like to shove money down the drain please make a taxable contribution to my Mustang Cobra acquisition fund.
Geeze, Louise....
Yes, I do have radar, and I've used radar for going on two decades now. I'll admit that my current one is not the latest and greatest but it gets me by, but, it works using the same principle as the ones on the big ships with the one thing in common - it needs a return signal. Big ships have big radars and operators that know how to operate them. Smaller boats do not necessarily have big radars, full-time operators, nor necessarily people that really know how to operate them. While the big boats may pick you up there tends to be a lot more little boats running around and they're the ones I'd really be worried about. The big boats run in shipping lanes, the little boats go all over the place. The difference in the return signal between a boat with a radar reflector in the proper position and one without is a lot - you can really see the difference. Most targets without a reflector show up in varying degrees as a little fuzz ball, and some are fainter than others. Getting the right balance between the various settings can be a challenge on inclement day with waves. Why take a chance? Let yourself be seen and give the other guy a good bright target! And, two reflectors are better than one. By the way, Franklin, I can pick up baby birds but one day with visibility running about two boat lengths I almost ran into a huge rock barge on a mooring buoy whose target was a very, very faint smudge on the screen.
Yes, I do have radar, and I've used radar for going on two decades now. I'll admit that my current one is not the latest and greatest but it gets me by, but, it works using the same principle as the ones on the big ships with the one thing in common - it needs a return signal. Big ships have big radars and operators that know how to operate them. Smaller boats do not necessarily have big radars, full-time operators, nor necessarily people that really know how to operate them. While the big boats may pick you up there tends to be a lot more little boats running around and they're the ones I'd really be worried about. The big boats run in shipping lanes, the little boats go all over the place. The difference in the return signal between a boat with a radar reflector in the proper position and one without is a lot - you can really see the difference. Most targets without a reflector show up in varying degrees as a little fuzz ball, and some are fainter than others. Getting the right balance between the various settings can be a challenge on inclement day with waves. Why take a chance? Let yourself be seen and give the other guy a good bright target! And, two reflectors are better than one. By the way, Franklin, I can pick up baby birds but one day with visibility running about two boat lengths I almost ran into a huge rock barge on a mooring buoy whose target was a very, very faint smudge on the screen.
Rozendal Tri-Lens Luneberg Reflector
Except for my canal boat in France, my previous boats have had tri-lens reflectors. Having spent a career as an officer in the Navy, and having seen how poorly most pleasure craft paint on a ship's radar, I consider a radar reflector an essential piece of safety equipment on a non-metal boat. But not just any radar reflector will do. Radar systems typically require a minimum of three consecutive "hits" or blips on a ship's radar before a target can be acquired. This puts a premium not only on the strength of the return, but also on consistent coverage to maintain a high radar cross section (RCS). Many small boats are fitted with reflectors made of square or circular intersecting plates, generally fabricated from sheet aluminum. The signals from these corner reflectors typically have a dozen narrow peaks and a dozen wide valleys. Their manufactures tend to refer to their RCS in terms of Peak RCS, but what they don't tell you is this peak RCS is rarely obtainable and that it doesn't happen when your boat is pitching or heeling. Neither do they mention angular coverage, which is most important when evaluating a radar reflector. A typical corner reflector's angular coverage is just 35 degrees wide, or less than 10% of the spectrum. A tri-lens Luneberg reflector has a far superior signature. There are three wide peaks and just three narrow valleys. The tri-lens has the same maximum radar cross section as 12" corner reflector clusters, but has far more angular coverage. Its over 300 degree coverage gives it a much better chance of being seen by another ship's radar in low visibility, high traffic or emergency situations. To further lessen the chance of becoming a piece of bow decoration on a super tanker in the fog, I have ordered a 40 cm Rosendal TriLens for my new Hunter 49.
Except for my canal boat in France, my previous boats have had tri-lens reflectors. Having spent a career as an officer in the Navy, and having seen how poorly most pleasure craft paint on a ship's radar, I consider a radar reflector an essential piece of safety equipment on a non-metal boat. But not just any radar reflector will do. Radar systems typically require a minimum of three consecutive "hits" or blips on a ship's radar before a target can be acquired. This puts a premium not only on the strength of the return, but also on consistent coverage to maintain a high radar cross section (RCS). Many small boats are fitted with reflectors made of square or circular intersecting plates, generally fabricated from sheet aluminum. The signals from these corner reflectors typically have a dozen narrow peaks and a dozen wide valleys. Their manufactures tend to refer to their RCS in terms of Peak RCS, but what they don't tell you is this peak RCS is rarely obtainable and that it doesn't happen when your boat is pitching or heeling. Neither do they mention angular coverage, which is most important when evaluating a radar reflector. A typical corner reflector's angular coverage is just 35 degrees wide, or less than 10% of the spectrum. A tri-lens Luneberg reflector has a far superior signature. There are three wide peaks and just three narrow valleys. The tri-lens has the same maximum radar cross section as 12" corner reflector clusters, but has far more angular coverage. Its over 300 degree coverage gives it a much better chance of being seen by another ship's radar in low visibility, high traffic or emergency situations. To further lessen the chance of becoming a piece of bow decoration on a super tanker in the fog, I have ordered a 40 cm Rosendal TriLens for my new Hunter 49.
- Status