I have purchased a new 326 and it has arrived - albeit to sit until next summer. But I am trying to have it ready. I am transfering a Garmin Chart plotter from another boat, and have decided I should add Radar, due to comments I have recived on this site. Now the time comes to ask a few questions about the Radar. The easy way to go is to buy a Raytheon for about $3,000. But I did see at West Marine a Furono that is about $1300 with the dome. It says it will do 16 NM, while a compaarable Raytheon will do 24 (for twice as much) This brings me to three questions: 1. With the speed of a sail boat isn't 16 enough? Looking for advice. 2. Also should I consider color? more $ but is it worth it in the long run, if so why? 3. Lastly - how much of an energy hog are these things? With the motor off will it run down the battery in short order or am I woried about the wrong thing?
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Russell Egge
Some Thoughts
Where are you putting the chart plotter; in the cockpit or at the nav station. We bought our 376 used and it has a Garmin 215 in the nav station, what a waste of money. If at all possible put it in the cockpit. We run our radar at less than 10 miles in the fog (often less than 2 miles in real soup) so distance is'nt the issue. Will either radar allow you to share the screan with your Garmin? That would be sweet. (not just waypoints) Power consumption isn't a major issue. They send out a high watt beam, but it lasts for such a short time it draws few amp/hr. Enjoy RREgge S/V Allie Kat (we bought her in Mystic, say hi to M.M. for us)
Where are you putting the chart plotter; in the cockpit or at the nav station. We bought our 376 used and it has a Garmin 215 in the nav station, what a waste of money. If at all possible put it in the cockpit. We run our radar at less than 10 miles in the fog (often less than 2 miles in real soup) so distance is'nt the issue. Will either radar allow you to share the screan with your Garmin? That would be sweet. (not just waypoints) Power consumption isn't a major issue. They send out a high watt beam, but it lasts for such a short time it draws few amp/hr. Enjoy RREgge S/V Allie Kat (we bought her in Mystic, say hi to M.M. for us)
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Tim Schaaf
Radar selection
Power drain CAN be an issue, if you use the radar alot, and color takes more power. It can also be hard to see in the daylight. To minimize the power draw, many radars have a "sleep" mode, during which the radar turns on and off at predetermined intervals. As for range, 16 miles is more than enough, and maybe even eight is more than enough. I agree with the previous post that most radar work is done close in. I rarely use mine for more than two miles. Of course, if you were using it primarily for navigation as opposed to collision avoidance, you would want more range, but your Garmin is probably taking care of that job. By the way, to calculate the range at which you can see something at sea level, from a given radar antenna height, take the square root, in meters, of the height, and multiply by 2.45 (as I recall). From that, you will see that it is very impractical to install a radar that will actually see something at sea level from even sixteen miles! Of course, it will see things that are well above sea level, like mountains, or big ships. My advice would be to get a 2kw set by either Furuno, or Raytheon, depending on whose features you like. The Raytheon Pathfinder 2 KW unit is not much more money than the Furuno, maybe around $1500. In a very detailed product comparison, these two won out over the JRC and Simrad sets, but, actually, they all work pretty well. A commercial captain friend of mine swears by his Simrad, for example. But look at most commercial boats, and you will see Furuno most often, followed by Raytheon. By the way, radar is one of the best things you can add to a boat, but using it to its bets effect needs practice.
Power drain CAN be an issue, if you use the radar alot, and color takes more power. It can also be hard to see in the daylight. To minimize the power draw, many radars have a "sleep" mode, during which the radar turns on and off at predetermined intervals. As for range, 16 miles is more than enough, and maybe even eight is more than enough. I agree with the previous post that most radar work is done close in. I rarely use mine for more than two miles. Of course, if you were using it primarily for navigation as opposed to collision avoidance, you would want more range, but your Garmin is probably taking care of that job. By the way, to calculate the range at which you can see something at sea level, from a given radar antenna height, take the square root, in meters, of the height, and multiply by 2.45 (as I recall). From that, you will see that it is very impractical to install a radar that will actually see something at sea level from even sixteen miles! Of course, it will see things that are well above sea level, like mountains, or big ships. My advice would be to get a 2kw set by either Furuno, or Raytheon, depending on whose features you like. The Raytheon Pathfinder 2 KW unit is not much more money than the Furuno, maybe around $1500. In a very detailed product comparison, these two won out over the JRC and Simrad sets, but, actually, they all work pretty well. A commercial captain friend of mine swears by his Simrad, for example. But look at most commercial boats, and you will see Furuno most often, followed by Raytheon. By the way, radar is one of the best things you can add to a boat, but using it to its bets effect needs practice.
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Daniel Jonas
Radar
Just several comments. Make sure you can either place or repeat the radar display to the helm. When it really counts, you don't want to be running up and down the stairs to look at it. I agree that most of the real work is going to be in close. The color is more expensive (lots more) but we think it is easier to see in daylight. Ours is all Raytheon...everything interfaces. Power consumption should not be a problem, although we have three AGM's for a total of about 255 amp hours on board. We have run the radar at anchor on intermittent mode, the refrigerator, lights, etc. and had minimal impact on the power. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije)
Just several comments. Make sure you can either place or repeat the radar display to the helm. When it really counts, you don't want to be running up and down the stairs to look at it. I agree that most of the real work is going to be in close. The color is more expensive (lots more) but we think it is easier to see in daylight. Ours is all Raytheon...everything interfaces. Power consumption should not be a problem, although we have three AGM's for a total of about 255 amp hours on board. We have run the radar at anchor on intermittent mode, the refrigerator, lights, etc. and had minimal impact on the power. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije)
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R DEUTSCH
Radar
The more you spend on radar the better it is. I just bought a 49 ft motor that did not have a radar and how he went this long without it I do not know. The larger the radar the better it is,for I am going to put a good radar on and I dont think color in important. I have only used radar twice in twenty years and if I didnt have it the first time,I wouldnt be writing this post. And you can put this hungry bugger to standby when things are clear and have it working in no time.
The more you spend on radar the better it is. I just bought a 49 ft motor that did not have a radar and how he went this long without it I do not know. The larger the radar the better it is,for I am going to put a good radar on and I dont think color in important. I have only used radar twice in twenty years and if I didnt have it the first time,I wouldnt be writing this post. And you can put this hungry bugger to standby when things are clear and have it working in no time.
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Don
power v. range
Power vs. range isn't really that significant and should not be the only consideration when choosing a radar. You will find that the more powerful radar transmitters allow far greater definition of storm fronts as well as designation of small targets at closer range than would a less powerful system. In this regard, a 4 KW radar is far superior to the smaller units not to say that a small radar is useless; only that when it really counts, you won't be sorry for the few extra dollars over the life of the boat (and your's as well). Don
Power vs. range isn't really that significant and should not be the only consideration when choosing a radar. You will find that the more powerful radar transmitters allow far greater definition of storm fronts as well as designation of small targets at closer range than would a less powerful system. In this regard, a 4 KW radar is far superior to the smaller units not to say that a small radar is useless; only that when it really counts, you won't be sorry for the few extra dollars over the life of the boat (and your's as well). Don
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Ed Schenck
OK Don,
can you describe a situation where a sailboat could benefit from 4KW? I agree, if we are talking about the possible loss of life then spend the $$$. But it's hard to see how 2KW would be insufficient power on a sailboat.
can you describe a situation where a sailboat could benefit from 4KW? I agree, if we are talking about the possible loss of life then spend the $$$. But it's hard to see how 2KW would be insufficient power on a sailboat.
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Pete
i.e. power vs. range
the best example of when power vs. range is a help. FOG! Just when you need your radar the most! A more power- full unit will have better "visibility" and cut out clutter better!
the best example of when power vs. range is a help. FOG! Just when you need your radar the most! A more power- full unit will have better "visibility" and cut out clutter better!
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Russell Egge
Radar and GPS
Based on my experience, in the same cruising area, if you a GPS-Chartplotter that you use for navigation, you will likley only use your radar in the fog and at short distances <2 miles. At that range is there a significant difference between 2KW and 4KW?
Based on my experience, in the same cruising area, if you a GPS-Chartplotter that you use for navigation, you will likley only use your radar in the fog and at short distances <2 miles. At that range is there a significant difference between 2KW and 4KW?
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Tim Leighton
RADAR
Ed: I have to respectfully disagree with Pete's posting on the need for maximum power in fog. Of course, you get some pretty thick fog in New England (I was raised on the coast of Maine), but fog (even pea soup) isn't normally a difficult medium for modern radar signals to penetrate. Where you really need maximum power is when in the vicinity of large, powerful storms with lots of heavy rain. Large rain droplets absorb radar energy like a sponge, so if you plan to sail in areas with lots of convective activity (OK, no one is that stupid, but lots of us have been stuck at sea with no option but to hunker down and wait for a storm to pass), you probably could use a 4kw dome. If not, you are probably going to be very happy with a 2kw dome. Also, as a reminder, radar waves are essentially line of sight and "bend" only slightly further than the curvature of the earth...approx. 7%. To determine the MAXIMUM range of a radar you multiply the square root of the antenna height by 1.144 and that product by 107%. In other words, if you mount your dome on a stern pole @ 8', your radar horizon is just under 3.5nm. If you put it on your mast at 26', your horizon is 6.24nm. Remember, that is just where the bottom of your radar beam touches the horizon. Your range increases somewhat as your targets get taller (like large ships). If your target has a mast 50', you will likely pick him up at between 12 and 15nm, plenty of time for target track analysis (are we CBDR) and avoidance. My point here is that having a "24" or "16" mile radar is almost immaterial, since around 15nm is the most you will ever need for vessel avoidance (weather depection/tracking is a whole other subject!). My suggestion (I'm not a radar expert... just done a bit of studying in preparation for purchase of a system on our new boat) is to get the very best, largest display you can afford. I would include in that a "course up" display capability (called "ARPA" or "MARPA" by some manufacturers) which essentially takes all the math out of screen interpolation. I wish we had that capability during my Navy days when I spent a great deal of time slaving over maneuvering boards!Then, if you still have $$ leftover, upgrade from the 2 to 4 kw dome. It would absolutely be helpful to have a display at the helm interlaced with a chartplotter, but if you can't do that with the system you already have, then I'd definitely put the chartplotter at the helm and radar at the nav station. You'll just have to ensure your first mate either is comfortable piloting the boat or running the radar! Hope this helps. Let us all know what you decide! Tim Leighton (S. Chesapeake Bay)
Ed: I have to respectfully disagree with Pete's posting on the need for maximum power in fog. Of course, you get some pretty thick fog in New England (I was raised on the coast of Maine), but fog (even pea soup) isn't normally a difficult medium for modern radar signals to penetrate. Where you really need maximum power is when in the vicinity of large, powerful storms with lots of heavy rain. Large rain droplets absorb radar energy like a sponge, so if you plan to sail in areas with lots of convective activity (OK, no one is that stupid, but lots of us have been stuck at sea with no option but to hunker down and wait for a storm to pass), you probably could use a 4kw dome. If not, you are probably going to be very happy with a 2kw dome. Also, as a reminder, radar waves are essentially line of sight and "bend" only slightly further than the curvature of the earth...approx. 7%. To determine the MAXIMUM range of a radar you multiply the square root of the antenna height by 1.144 and that product by 107%. In other words, if you mount your dome on a stern pole @ 8', your radar horizon is just under 3.5nm. If you put it on your mast at 26', your horizon is 6.24nm. Remember, that is just where the bottom of your radar beam touches the horizon. Your range increases somewhat as your targets get taller (like large ships). If your target has a mast 50', you will likely pick him up at between 12 and 15nm, plenty of time for target track analysis (are we CBDR) and avoidance. My point here is that having a "24" or "16" mile radar is almost immaterial, since around 15nm is the most you will ever need for vessel avoidance (weather depection/tracking is a whole other subject!). My suggestion (I'm not a radar expert... just done a bit of studying in preparation for purchase of a system on our new boat) is to get the very best, largest display you can afford. I would include in that a "course up" display capability (called "ARPA" or "MARPA" by some manufacturers) which essentially takes all the math out of screen interpolation. I wish we had that capability during my Navy days when I spent a great deal of time slaving over maneuvering boards!Then, if you still have $$ leftover, upgrade from the 2 to 4 kw dome. It would absolutely be helpful to have a display at the helm interlaced with a chartplotter, but if you can't do that with the system you already have, then I'd definitely put the chartplotter at the helm and radar at the nav station. You'll just have to ensure your first mate either is comfortable piloting the boat or running the radar! Hope this helps. Let us all know what you decide! Tim Leighton (S. Chesapeake Bay)
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R DEUTSCH
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Tim Schaaf
for what it is worth....
my 1kw radar is now in its eleventh year of faithful and frequent duty. I rarely use it for distances greater than two miles, sometimes four, and it has been great at picking up storms, etc. etc. Since I do lots of singlehanded sailing where it is on all night, power consumption IS an issue. My battery banks do carry 440 amp hours, but I use mostly solar power. I can imagine where more than 2 KW might be helpful, but not nearly often enough to justify the expense. Remember, you will almost always use it close in, you probably have a GPS, and sometimes even eyes and binoculars can be effective! By the way, when in totally dark anchorages, I always take radar bearings at night.
my 1kw radar is now in its eleventh year of faithful and frequent duty. I rarely use it for distances greater than two miles, sometimes four, and it has been great at picking up storms, etc. etc. Since I do lots of singlehanded sailing where it is on all night, power consumption IS an issue. My battery banks do carry 440 amp hours, but I use mostly solar power. I can imagine where more than 2 KW might be helpful, but not nearly often enough to justify the expense. Remember, you will almost always use it close in, you probably have a GPS, and sometimes even eyes and binoculars can be effective! By the way, when in totally dark anchorages, I always take radar bearings at night.
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Carl and Juliana Dupre
Furuno 1712
Hi, Ed. We just went through this same exercise a few months ago. From your description, it sounds like you are considering the Furuno 1622. After a bit of research, a bit more advice, and quite a bit of discussion, we went up one peg to the Furuno 1712 (2.2kw). Agree with quite a few of the earlier posts. Distance is not the issue; the issues are power to punch through the fog, and beam width and resolution to pick up those weak signals (sailboats without radar reflectors) and sort out the squall fronts. All the advice that we got from several directions was that the 1622 model just didn't quite cut it; power and resolution were below what you really wanted. We paid about $1600 for the Furuno 1712 (installation not included), which was about $300 more than the 1622. We were convinced that the performance difference was worth the few extra $$$; were not convinced that quite a lot more money for the 4kw unit was worth it. About a year from now we will have a full season with our new radar and can probably make some much more meaningful and experience-based comments. Good luck, and let us all know what you decide! Carl and Jule s/v 'Syzygy'
Hi, Ed. We just went through this same exercise a few months ago. From your description, it sounds like you are considering the Furuno 1622. After a bit of research, a bit more advice, and quite a bit of discussion, we went up one peg to the Furuno 1712 (2.2kw). Agree with quite a few of the earlier posts. Distance is not the issue; the issues are power to punch through the fog, and beam width and resolution to pick up those weak signals (sailboats without radar reflectors) and sort out the squall fronts. All the advice that we got from several directions was that the 1622 model just didn't quite cut it; power and resolution were below what you really wanted. We paid about $1600 for the Furuno 1712 (installation not included), which was about $300 more than the 1622. We were convinced that the performance difference was worth the few extra $$$; were not convinced that quite a lot more money for the 4kw unit was worth it. About a year from now we will have a full season with our new radar and can probably make some much more meaningful and experience-based comments. Good luck, and let us all know what you decide! Carl and Jule s/v 'Syzygy'
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Ed
Thanks for the advice
Decided on a Raytheon RL70 with a 2kw dome. It will be monted in the cockpit as will my Garmin 215. Was way interested in the combination devices - but the Raytheon seemed pricy as to add the chartplotter was another $700 PLUS $400 for an attena, could replace my Garmin with a new generation for about $600. So I decided to do the RADAR now and continue to use my 215. Thanks for all the valuble input - I will now spend some time this winter reading and trying to figure out how to use the beast! Ed
Decided on a Raytheon RL70 with a 2kw dome. It will be monted in the cockpit as will my Garmin 215. Was way interested in the combination devices - but the Raytheon seemed pricy as to add the chartplotter was another $700 PLUS $400 for an attena, could replace my Garmin with a new generation for about $600. So I decided to do the RADAR now and continue to use my 215. Thanks for all the valuble input - I will now spend some time this winter reading and trying to figure out how to use the beast! Ed
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george lakesiii
More definition
I would get the one with the best definition. The point where a boat tied up at a dock looks like a boat separate from the dock rather than blended together. In my area the fog can drop quickly catching pwc's in pea soup. We've had them follow us in along with other boats when you could barely see 35ft. Its nice to share with the gps plotter as well if you can link.
I would get the one with the best definition. The point where a boat tied up at a dock looks like a boat separate from the dock rather than blended together. In my area the fog can drop quickly catching pwc's in pea soup. We've had them follow us in along with other boats when you could barely see 35ft. Its nice to share with the gps plotter as well if you can link.
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