Many clubs do not allow spinnaker boats to race against non-spinnaker boats, but others allow the two to compete, with the spinnaker boats taking a handicap hit to compensate for the performance advantage. Does this mix work out pretty well, or does it cause more problems than it solves. It seems to me that it is a good way for skippers and crews to get some spinnaker experience, without having to compete right away with the hot-shots. Opinions/observations?
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A class and B class
Club racing should have as the first goal to get as many boats out on the course as possible. A non-spinnaker fleet is absolutely necessary in my opinion. Many sailors can be run over and or intimidated trying to race with boats and crews in the spinnaker class. In our area there are a number of PHRF regional regattas that will give a non-spinnaker boat few seconds per mile higher rating to race in spinnaker classes. In most cases the added seconds per mile will not help and the non spinnaker crew will become discouraged. Your club can do a lot for sail boat racing in your area by giving the cruising boats a class where they can mix it up with one another. Over time, some of these boats will get the fever, up grade their boat, equipment and crews and go out and race with the "Big Boys". Most important is try to have fun, make your races fun and acknowledge and reward as many boats as you can. Good Luck.
Club racing should have as the first goal to get as many boats out on the course as possible. A non-spinnaker fleet is absolutely necessary in my opinion. Many sailors can be run over and or intimidated trying to race with boats and crews in the spinnaker class. In our area there are a number of PHRF regional regattas that will give a non-spinnaker boat few seconds per mile higher rating to race in spinnaker classes. In most cases the added seconds per mile will not help and the non spinnaker crew will become discouraged. Your club can do a lot for sail boat racing in your area by giving the cruising boats a class where they can mix it up with one another. Over time, some of these boats will get the fever, up grade their boat, equipment and crews and go out and race with the "Big Boys". Most important is try to have fun, make your races fun and acknowledge and reward as many boats as you can. Good Luck.
Actually
We now have one spinnaker class and two non-spinnaker classes. The problem is that it is very difficult to get any spinnaker racing experience without jumping in the deep end with the hot-shot spinnaker sleds - no one with a cruising-type boat has a chance against them, so the status quo is preserved. What I am wondering is whether there is a fair way for boats that are not in all-out race setup to sail in either configuration against each other, and thus for at least some of the cruiser types to gain some chute experience in race conditions.
We now have one spinnaker class and two non-spinnaker classes. The problem is that it is very difficult to get any spinnaker racing experience without jumping in the deep end with the hot-shot spinnaker sleds - no one with a cruising-type boat has a chance against them, so the status quo is preserved. What I am wondering is whether there is a fair way for boats that are not in all-out race setup to sail in either configuration against each other, and thus for at least some of the cruiser types to gain some chute experience in race conditions.
Cruising w/ spinnakers...
In our club distance races, our cruising class has it's own spinnaker class. It is not as hard-core competitive as the PHRF, but there are some excellent racers. What tends to happen with our club is that we have more boats leaving PHRF to come to cruising than the other way around. It seems that getting all the crew needed for a race is getting harder and harder... Steve
In our club distance races, our cruising class has it's own spinnaker class. It is not as hard-core competitive as the PHRF, but there are some excellent racers. What tends to happen with our club is that we have more boats leaving PHRF to come to cruising than the other way around. It seems that getting all the crew needed for a race is getting harder and harder... Steve
a dissenting voice
When I took over as fleet captain for the large sailboat racing program at my yacht club, we got rid of non-spinnaker adjustments. When you introduce handicapp adjustments to compensate for non-spinnaker racers, in essence what you're doing is penalizing crews who go through the extra effort to fly a chute. That's not the sort of racing ethos that I wanted to encourage. Those who want to race without spinnakers are encouraged to have their PHRF certificates recalculated so that their spinnakers are removed entirely from their ratings. What this means is that folks who used to make last-minute decisions whether race a given series or regatta non-spinnaker because heavy winds were anticipated are out of luck. Most of our regular racers are thrilled about the decision to drop non-spinnaker adjustments, because it was unfair to the guys who flew their chutes, and it was especially disheartening to watch some of the least-skilled racers in the club walk away with trophies because they'd been clever enough to sign up for a heavy-wind race non-spinnaker. The bottom line is that when you win a sailboat race it should be because you out-performed the competition, not because you found a way to beat the system.
When I took over as fleet captain for the large sailboat racing program at my yacht club, we got rid of non-spinnaker adjustments. When you introduce handicapp adjustments to compensate for non-spinnaker racers, in essence what you're doing is penalizing crews who go through the extra effort to fly a chute. That's not the sort of racing ethos that I wanted to encourage. Those who want to race without spinnakers are encouraged to have their PHRF certificates recalculated so that their spinnakers are removed entirely from their ratings. What this means is that folks who used to make last-minute decisions whether race a given series or regatta non-spinnaker because heavy winds were anticipated are out of luck. Most of our regular racers are thrilled about the decision to drop non-spinnaker adjustments, because it was unfair to the guys who flew their chutes, and it was especially disheartening to watch some of the least-skilled racers in the club walk away with trophies because they'd been clever enough to sign up for a heavy-wind race non-spinnaker. The bottom line is that when you win a sailboat race it should be because you out-performed the competition, not because you found a way to beat the system.
Agree with you John
John, I agree with you. A boat should not have it both ways. Either he is going to race spinnaker class or he is not. Here in SE Florida you must declare either spinnaker or non spinnaker to obtain your PHRF certificate. You cannot decide before one race to the next if your going to fly your chute today or not. You cannot get a race by race rating adjustment to fly or not to fly. But I think it is important to have non spinnaker classes and let those guys race against each other. By the same token, if a boat seeks and receives a PHRF certificate with a non-spinnaker rating and wants to race in a PHRF class without a chute on a regular basis then I feel he should be allowed to do so. Just don't allow them to change there rating from race to race. If your non-spin, then you can't ever fly the chute unless you reapply to your local PHRF committee and you can only do that once each year. Does that make sense?
John, I agree with you. A boat should not have it both ways. Either he is going to race spinnaker class or he is not. Here in SE Florida you must declare either spinnaker or non spinnaker to obtain your PHRF certificate. You cannot decide before one race to the next if your going to fly your chute today or not. You cannot get a race by race rating adjustment to fly or not to fly. But I think it is important to have non spinnaker classes and let those guys race against each other. By the same token, if a boat seeks and receives a PHRF certificate with a non-spinnaker rating and wants to race in a PHRF class without a chute on a regular basis then I feel he should be allowed to do so. Just don't allow them to change there rating from race to race. If your non-spin, then you can't ever fly the chute unless you reapply to your local PHRF committee and you can only do that once each year. Does that make sense?
Don't agree
If you are club racing then go out with the big boys. You will learn from them and be competitive next season. Where I race if you register as a spin boat then that is where you are all season. Differentiating these classes on the water makes racing safer and more fun. At the end of the season, the brave ones stick around for the fall series where everyone races in one class and handicaps are adjusted. Tim R.
If you are club racing then go out with the big boys. You will learn from them and be competitive next season. Where I race if you register as a spin boat then that is where you are all season. Differentiating these classes on the water makes racing safer and more fun. At the end of the season, the brave ones stick around for the fall series where everyone races in one class and handicaps are adjusted. Tim R.
Take a good look
While racing with a spinaker Shannon can be a terrifying site for all you racers. Here you can enjoy her, seeing clearly the name that often becomes blurred as she moves swiftly past you all. Happy Sailing!
While racing with a spinaker Shannon can be a terrifying site for all you racers. Here you can enjoy her, seeing clearly the name that often becomes blurred as she moves swiftly past you all. Happy Sailing!
after a few years of this argument
We finally decided there is plenty of room for both on every course. If the boats are rated properly, and thats hard to do, it all works out. We dont race much with both non-spin and spin it the same starts. it really does not work out very well and creates more bad will than good. just quit with the overall winner and go with the first in both classes. more people win, more trophys and more fun for everyone. If the big boats are too big for the smaller ones, break out another classs and more will get involved.
We finally decided there is plenty of room for both on every course. If the boats are rated properly, and thats hard to do, it all works out. We dont race much with both non-spin and spin it the same starts. it really does not work out very well and creates more bad will than good. just quit with the overall winner and go with the first in both classes. more people win, more trophys and more fun for everyone. If the big boats are too big for the smaller ones, break out another classs and more will get involved.
the straw
I guess the straw that broke the camel's back for our club last season was when a non-spinnaker boat showed up six minutes late at the start line and still corrected out ahead of numerous spinnaker boats for overall. In an 8 nm race! I agree wholeheartedly about Tampa Ed's solution, but that's not really an option for a small club. And when it got to the point that some of our most marginal sailers were winning trophies simply because they'd entered a series non-spinnaker, while at the same time some very talented racers were not even coming close to finishing in the silver because they raced with their chutes, it was time for a change.
I guess the straw that broke the camel's back for our club last season was when a non-spinnaker boat showed up six minutes late at the start line and still corrected out ahead of numerous spinnaker boats for overall. In an 8 nm race! I agree wholeheartedly about Tampa Ed's solution, but that's not really an option for a small club. And when it got to the point that some of our most marginal sailers were winning trophies simply because they'd entered a series non-spinnaker, while at the same time some very talented racers were not even coming close to finishing in the silver because they raced with their chutes, it was time for a change.
To John in S.F.
I am not quite sure how a non-spin boat can correct out over a highly quailified crew flying a spinnaker over an 8 mile course. Was this a point to point race and not windward/leeward course? If a course is set up properly to the wind conditions, insuring windward/leeward legs a spinnaker boat should always have an advantage, unless they made some big mistakes. Is it possible that the non-spin boat had the course set to his advantage and picked the correct side, found the good wind and current? If they did everything right then they probably deserved to win. But 6 minutes late for the start? I find it hard to believe that a well sailed boat, with good crew flying a chute would have any problem beating a non-spin boat that was 6 minutes late to the start. What kind of rating did he have, and what kind of boat? John, not all non-spin boats are sailed by "marginal sailors".
I am not quite sure how a non-spin boat can correct out over a highly quailified crew flying a spinnaker over an 8 mile course. Was this a point to point race and not windward/leeward course? If a course is set up properly to the wind conditions, insuring windward/leeward legs a spinnaker boat should always have an advantage, unless they made some big mistakes. Is it possible that the non-spin boat had the course set to his advantage and picked the correct side, found the good wind and current? If they did everything right then they probably deserved to win. But 6 minutes late for the start? I find it hard to believe that a well sailed boat, with good crew flying a chute would have any problem beating a non-spin boat that was 6 minutes late to the start. What kind of rating did he have, and what kind of boat? John, not all non-spin boats are sailed by "marginal sailors".
John in S.F. 1 more thought
Sorry John, But that situation really got to me and I can't seem to leave it alone. In SE Florida the local PHRF Committee gives 9 seconds per mile credit for **NON-SPINNAKER** and the certificate is clearly marked as such. You must then sail for 1 year under that rating. Upon renewing for another year you can then declare any changes. 9 seconds per mile over your 8 NM course is 72 seconds. So your non-spin boat had to be really fast to make up 6 minutes late for the start and still cover his 72 second rating credit. Something does not add up here. Your spinnaker boats probably really need some practice and are probably the "Marginal Sailors" in your club if they are that easy to beat.
Sorry John, But that situation really got to me and I can't seem to leave it alone. In SE Florida the local PHRF Committee gives 9 seconds per mile credit for **NON-SPINNAKER** and the certificate is clearly marked as such. You must then sail for 1 year under that rating. Upon renewing for another year you can then declare any changes. 9 seconds per mile over your 8 NM course is 72 seconds. So your non-spin boat had to be really fast to make up 6 minutes late for the start and still cover his 72 second rating credit. Something does not add up here. Your spinnaker boats probably really need some practice and are probably the "Marginal Sailors" in your club if they are that easy to beat.
Darrel
First off I didn't see that John from SF mentioned that the club races you are trying to debate were of a one-design fleet. 72 seconds obviously doesn't seem to be much, but let's say that the tardy boat has a HRF of 270 and the local cub was allowing a 10% add for non-spinnaker that makes the F 297. Now the average yacht races with an F @117 with spinnaker. Delta of 180 sec/mile, factor 8(nm), 1,440sec or 24 minutes less the 6(tardy factor), remainder 18 minutes. Not a windward leward course, reaching and the wind fills in from behind, anything can happen. We've all been there.
First off I didn't see that John from SF mentioned that the club races you are trying to debate were of a one-design fleet. 72 seconds obviously doesn't seem to be much, but let's say that the tardy boat has a HRF of 270 and the local cub was allowing a 10% add for non-spinnaker that makes the F 297. Now the average yacht races with an F @117 with spinnaker. Delta of 180 sec/mile, factor 8(nm), 1,440sec or 24 minutes less the 6(tardy factor), remainder 18 minutes. Not a windward leward course, reaching and the wind fills in from behind, anything can happen. We've all been there.
time on distance
We've all been there indeed! Darrel and Rick both point out a problem in time-on-distance handicapping, as opposed to time-on-time. If it's light at the start and then builds, winning the start becomes less important. If breeze dimminishes througout the race, winning the start is everything. But if you think it's difficult to handicap spinnaker/non-spinnaker boats on a time-on-distance (seconds per mile) basis, try doing it time-on-time. It's almost impossible, especially if you want to do it in such a way that doesn't penalize those who race with chutes. My feeling is that it's ALWAYS got to end up being an advantage racing a spinnaker, because boats otherwise will not be maximizing their downwind speed potential. If you don't consistently maximize your boat's speed according to its handicapped potential, you shouldn't consistently be winning. Period. Otherwise, all logic goes out of a handicapping formula.
We've all been there indeed! Darrel and Rick both point out a problem in time-on-distance handicapping, as opposed to time-on-time. If it's light at the start and then builds, winning the start becomes less important. If breeze dimminishes througout the race, winning the start is everything. But if you think it's difficult to handicap spinnaker/non-spinnaker boats on a time-on-distance (seconds per mile) basis, try doing it time-on-time. It's almost impossible, especially if you want to do it in such a way that doesn't penalize those who race with chutes. My feeling is that it's ALWAYS got to end up being an advantage racing a spinnaker, because boats otherwise will not be maximizing their downwind speed potential. If you don't consistently maximize your boat's speed according to its handicapped potential, you shouldn't consistently be winning. Period. Otherwise, all logic goes out of a handicapping formula.
marginal sailors
Darrel, et al, I certainly don't mean to imply that those who sail non-spinnaker are marginal sailors. I raced Santana 22s for many years, placing three times in the nationals and winning three Santanaramas. Some great competition there, and no spinnakers are permitted in class racing. But I would also maintain that the more experience sailors have, the more comfortable they are with flying a spinnaker. Likewise, the better trained a crew is, the less the likelyhood that they'll experience spinnaker disasters. My point is that if the goal of racing is to hone sailing skills, racing with a spinnaker should not be penalized. If it's a windy day and only one crew has the gumption to fly a chute, AND that crew has the skill level to fly it without wiping out, then they should win.
Darrel, et al, I certainly don't mean to imply that those who sail non-spinnaker are marginal sailors. I raced Santana 22s for many years, placing three times in the nationals and winning three Santanaramas. Some great competition there, and no spinnakers are permitted in class racing. But I would also maintain that the more experience sailors have, the more comfortable they are with flying a spinnaker. Likewise, the better trained a crew is, the less the likelyhood that they'll experience spinnaker disasters. My point is that if the goal of racing is to hone sailing skills, racing with a spinnaker should not be penalized. If it's a windy day and only one crew has the gumption to fly a chute, AND that crew has the skill level to fly it without wiping out, then they should win.
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