Racing Etiquette

tommays · Jun 26, 2011

Sounds like rule 12 which requires you to keep clear of a boat clear ahead on the same tack

I would have let you go IF you did it in a way that did NOT cost me time which would be to go to pass to leeward

Because it kind of sucks when you lose your race by 4 seconds and a big boat cost you time

Don12364 · Jun 26, 2011

The other boat did not want to sit in your dirty wind for the rest of the leg, nor did he want to have to tack to clear his air. You were about to cost him time so, OF COURSE HE LUFFED YOU and everybody would do this as a matter of course.
To break through his lee you needed to sail low and fast and then climb to windward after you got by. This would have cost you time but not him and quite right too.
Your helmsman was just asking for trouble to try to roll the other boat - which would not have been pleased.
Yes it is a little matter of etiquette as well with you committing the 'crime'.

Ted · Jun 26, 2011

The other boat did exactly as he should have. I think that you might reconsider your "playing nice in the sandbox" if the positions were reversed. Don't take it personally, it's all part of the game. Use the rules to your advantage both offensively and defensively. Your competitors surely will as you have just experienced. Tommays and Donalex gave you good advice.

Kevin3447 · Jun 26, 2011

Some skippers lose sight of the "big picture" and obsess with not letting anyone go over them, even if there's a lot of separation. A couple of weeks ago, someone took us up to 80 degrees high of course, because he thought he could. Of course, both of our VMGs went way down, costing us both more time than if we had both just continued to the next mark, but I guess he was trying to teach us a lesson. He owed us 15 seconds a mile, so should have been well out of our reach by this point in the race, but that's another story.

Anyway, a good racer will not let themselves get stuck in a position to be rolled by bigger boats, and should come up early, which lets the boat coming up behind know that they won't be messed with, and also gives room to go under the smaller boat without going too far out of the way. Too often, the "rolled" boat isn't paying attention and doesn't notice the "rolling" boat until they're almost abeam, then comes up hard because they can, slowing down both boats.

I think etiquette (and the fastest way around the course) is for bigger boats to go under smaller boats when reasonable, and to give plenty of room while going over if it's too far out of your way to go under.

Stu Jackson · Jun 26, 2011

Add to this rounding marks. The "rules" at the mark are the same for everyone who's there at the time, regardless of what group they're in. Play nice, but play by the rules.

Freedom77 · Jun 26, 2011

I'm ready for the FLAK. I've been sailing/racing for over 40 years with a box of dusty trophies as eveidence. Race chairman of two different yacht clubs. That being said, the USYRU was written when yacht racing was a gentleman's (rich guy) sport. If you read the rules it says for the most part the word "shall", not will. Sports today has been populated by Bullies. Some in sailing. Playing nice isn't in the book anymore. I dropped out once to help when a guy lost his mast after a couple of others ignored him. Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing, quote Vince Lombardi. Whine when you don't get your way, John Mcenroe, Get P---ed and throw stuff Bobby Knight, and think like George Patton, Woody Hays. And let us not forget little league dads and Soccer Moms. When I was kid sports figures were something our folks could hold up to us a role models. What are we teaching our kids today. Being in the right isn't always right. A little Civility goes a long way. I got T-boned by a guy who was in the right and cussed me out for being in his way and then he petitioned for membership in our club. Guess how that vote went? Fair winds and full sails....

PaulK · Jun 26, 2011

Freedom77 said:
I'm ready for the FLAK. Sports today has been populated by Bullies. Some in sailing. I dropped out once to help when a guy lost his mast after a couple of others ignored him. Being in the right isn't always right. A little Civility goes a long way. I got T-boned by a guy who was in the right and cussed me out for being in his way and then he petitioned for membership in our club. Guess how that vote went? Fair winds and full sails....

No flak, but you didn't have to withdraw to help someone who lost his mast: you should have gotten redress from the RC. Others have mentioned that the "nice guy" in the OP situation would have gone to leeward of the other competitor. Some people simply don't know what they're doing, despite the fact that they've bought a big boat.

WayneH · Jun 26, 2011

PaulK said:
Some people simply don't know what they're doing, despite the fact that they've bought a big boat.

Hey! I resemble that remark!

Gail R · Jun 26, 2011

This comes from someone with a decade of experience racing a relatively slower boat (Pearson 30) in a fleet of bigger, faster boats, including some real race rockets. Along with a couple Beneteau 36.7s, we have a Frers 41, Farr 35 ML, Sydney 38, a couple Olsen 30s, a Hobie 33, and several different J/Boats, all of which are faster than we are and most of whom sail in a different class from us.

If you plan on passing a "slower" boat with your go-fast boat, the courteous thing to do is pass her to leeward. It will cost you a LOT LESS time than it would have cost her if you pass to windward, and might even get you a post-race cocktail from the other skipper.

In our little sandbox here in Maine, nearly every go-fast boat passes us to leeward. Of course, part of this is because we're looking behind us and will come up ahead of time if we see someone approaching from windward.

BTW, it is PHRF (Performance Handicap Racing Fleet), not PHFR.

Alan · Jun 26, 2011

Gail, and almost everyone else nailed it. "Stealing" a slower boats air(specially in another division) by passing to windward is not only time consuming if he takes you up (which he should) it's also very bad form (read: un-gentlemanly). I'm afraid Freedom77 you're completely on the wrong end of this one.

alexco38 · Jun 27, 2011

The best way to do is to "pretend" you are passing him on the windward. If he heads up to defend the position, some people do, you got him hooked. Once he slow down, immediately bear off and pass on the leeward side really fast. Becareful don't have any overlap or you toast your own goose. He's stalled and you pulled ahead thus minimize the wind shadow by him.

Freedom77 · Jun 27, 2011

Read my Recent post, A TEN BUCK TROPHY. I sail/race for pleasure. When it's stops being fun it's time to pull out. Never claimed to be right. Mia Culpa. Fair Winds and Full Sails....

Gail R · Jun 27, 2011

Freedom77 said:
Read my Recent post, A TEN BUCK TROPHY. I sail/race for pleasure. When it's stops being fun it's time to pull out. Never claimed to be right. Mia Culpa. Fair Winds and Full Sails....

Read the post, and while somewhat cute, racing doesn't have to be that way. We had no note on the boat or the equipment on it. Our crew is not eating us out of house and home, mainly because we double-hand cruising class (no chute) and rarely take crew. There are only one or two screamer skippers in our fleet; the rest are pretty decent folk who sail by the rules and in the Corinthian spirit. I agree that you do it till it's not fun any more; the thing that is making it less fun for us right now is some of the politics involved.

But seriously, it's a bit ungentlemanly to try to pass someone to windward, especially a boat from a slower class, and you should expect to be taken up.

Rick Webb · Jun 27, 2011

Aside from the Racing Etiquitte

You were the give way boat as you were overtaking him. It was your obligation to stay out of his way so overtaking him on his leeward side would have been correct whether racing or not.

Taking part in a race does not alleviate your burdens in regard to the “Rules of the Road” always follow the COLREGS first.

Todd Smith · Jun 27, 2011

Rick Webb said:
You were the give way boat as you were overtaking him. It was your obligation to stay out of his way so overtaking him on his leeward side would have been correct whether racing or not.

Taking part in a race does not alleviate your burdens in regard to the “Rules of the Road” always follow the COLREGS first.

This is incorrect. Between two boats racing, the racing rules override the COLREGS. This has been upheld in court.

The overtaking situation is the one in which the Racing Rules and the COLREGS are most different.

( The Racing rules are considered to be a contract that 2 boats entering a race are agreeing to abide by and override the COLREGS between those boats. I'll post links if you want to read up. )

Between a boat racing and another vessel that is not racing, the COLREGS take precedence.

RobertLangdirect · Jun 27, 2011

Freedom77 said:
I'm ready for the FLAK.. . . Playing nice isn't in the book anymore. I dropped out once to help when a guy lost his mast . . . . Being in the right isn't always right. . . . I got T-boned by a guy who was in the right . . . .

Since you are ready, I will fire!

Playing nice IS in the books, especially if you are making a point of HELPING another vessel in distress, then indeed, that is SPECIFICALLY IN THE RULE BOOK, and if you really want to make a point of not being worse off for helping, it is grounds for "redress."

"62.1 A request for redress or a protest committee’s decision to consider redress shall be based on a claim or possibility that a boat’s score in a race or series has, through no fault of her own, been made significantly worse by . . . (c) giving help (except to herself or her crew) in compliance with rule 1.1 . . ." and "62.2 . . . No red flag is required."

Being is the right is always "right," otherwise you would not be in the right. But even the rules, section 2, right of way, limits the "righteousness" of any boat. For example, a "right of way" boat needs to give another boat the chance and room to keep clear if she changes her course.

Some idiot who thinks they have right of way, and T-Bones another boat, seems to forget rule 14, the one that says a boat shall avoid contact with another boat. While a right of way boat may be in a situation where contact is unavoidable, even the rule notes that the so called right is further limited. Cause damage or injury and the committee can hold even a right of way boat accountable.

So, I sail to enjoy the air. I race to win. And I found nothing in the rules that say that I race only the boats in my class.

LuzSD · Jun 27, 2011

nicely said........

So, I sail to enjoy the air. I race to win. And I found nothing in the rules that say that I race only the boats in my class.

Classic and classy

love that!

MrBill_FLL · Jun 30, 2011

right,
racing boats not in class doesn't get you free drinks at the bar after the race.

and you can count on paybacks, every chance another skipper gets!

Clearly the OP didn't realize they were in the wrong. (RTFM!)