I'm in the process of planning a separate starter battery, leaving my two 4D's for the house bank. I have some questions: 1) Charging the cranking battery with a single alternator - does anybody have comments on the merits of an Echo-Charger or a battery combiner? I've read through the literature on Xantrex (Heart) Echo-Charger and I'm still unclear as to how "smart" it is, that is - is it a multi-stage charger, or simply a combiner (current limited to 15 amps). As I see it the only advantage is that it would allow different battery technologies to be mixed (if it is more than a combiner). 2)Should the "ignition" circuitry (lamps, starter solenoid etc) - be run off the cranking or the house bank? I opt toward using the cranking battery. 3) West Marine (and I believe Calder) recommend that the alternator be permanently connected to the house bank. This means that the alternator terminal is ALWAYS live, regardless of switch settings. The question is does this pose any problem? Seems like this makes it imperative to have a fuse in the alternator line. Thanks in advance, Derek
- Status
Truecharge
We also have two D4s and a Group 30 charging battery. The battery isolator is a solenoid. Both battery banks charge off the high-output alternator through a separate smart regulator, all acquired from Jack Rabbit Marine. There is a several hundred amp fuse in the alternator output cable (which did not protect against an internal short in the previous batteries, which exploded and set fire to the boat). The solenoid keeps the batteries separate at any state of charge without the voltage drop of a standard battery isolator. Shore power charges both banks through an installed Truecharge 20 smart charger. Both the Truecharge and the alternator regulator are really smart chargers and when set correctly both charge the batteries quickly and will not overcharge them. Of course, all this costs a nickel or two. But then so do D4s, not to mention wrestling them out when they die.
We also have two D4s and a Group 30 charging battery. The battery isolator is a solenoid. Both battery banks charge off the high-output alternator through a separate smart regulator, all acquired from Jack Rabbit Marine. There is a several hundred amp fuse in the alternator output cable (which did not protect against an internal short in the previous batteries, which exploded and set fire to the boat). The solenoid keeps the batteries separate at any state of charge without the voltage drop of a standard battery isolator. Shore power charges both banks through an installed Truecharge 20 smart charger. Both the Truecharge and the alternator regulator are really smart chargers and when set correctly both charge the batteries quickly and will not overcharge them. Of course, all this costs a nickel or two. But then so do D4s, not to mention wrestling them out when they die.
Starter circuit
Derek, I'll try to help here a little as I did the same thing on my Hunter 356. We used a combiner and so the staged charging is handled by the charger and (in our case) multi-stage regulator for the alternator. I think the echo charger will follow the charging characteristics of your battery charger, but limit the output to a certain amperage. I do not think it really helps in using different battery technologies, in fact, I'm not certain anything really helps that except seperated charging systems. Use the same type of battery for your starter that you have for the house. We have two 4D AGM house batteries and one Group 27 AGM for the starter. We ran all starter / ignition stuff off the house batteries. If the house switch is off, the thing won't start and the bells and whistles are very quiet. You have this part correct. I agree that the alternator should be connected directly to a battery (I'm not sure that it needs to be the house). We ran ours to the starter battery and it is fused. Actually the run is from the alternator to the fuse, to a buss that connects to the starter battery. I think I have that right (going a little from memory here). The same buss connects to the combiner, as do both house batteries. I like the combiner becasue it takes the starter battery out of the circuit pretty much as soon as any charging source is removed. It also combines them right back when the charging source is present. We have a 100 amp Heart charger (part of the Inverter) and a 100 amp Balmar that is regulated by a Balmar Multi-stage regulator. We can put those amps back in the AGM's pretty fast. I monitor the house batteries with a Link 2000. I do not monitor the starter battery, but it seems that it is getting an adequate and complete charge. So far I'm really happy with the set-up. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Derek, I'll try to help here a little as I did the same thing on my Hunter 356. We used a combiner and so the staged charging is handled by the charger and (in our case) multi-stage regulator for the alternator. I think the echo charger will follow the charging characteristics of your battery charger, but limit the output to a certain amperage. I do not think it really helps in using different battery technologies, in fact, I'm not certain anything really helps that except seperated charging systems. Use the same type of battery for your starter that you have for the house. We have two 4D AGM house batteries and one Group 27 AGM for the starter. We ran all starter / ignition stuff off the house batteries. If the house switch is off, the thing won't start and the bells and whistles are very quiet. You have this part correct. I agree that the alternator should be connected directly to a battery (I'm not sure that it needs to be the house). We ran ours to the starter battery and it is fused. Actually the run is from the alternator to the fuse, to a buss that connects to the starter battery. I think I have that right (going a little from memory here). The same buss connects to the combiner, as do both house batteries. I like the combiner becasue it takes the starter battery out of the circuit pretty much as soon as any charging source is removed. It also combines them right back when the charging source is present. We have a 100 amp Heart charger (part of the Inverter) and a 100 amp Balmar that is regulated by a Balmar Multi-stage regulator. We can put those amps back in the AGM's pretty fast. I monitor the house batteries with a Link 2000. I do not monitor the starter battery, but it seems that it is getting an adequate and complete charge. So far I'm really happy with the set-up. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Heart inverter
I have been extremely happy with the Heart inverter on my 1990 Hunter 42'. I would copy the way hunter installed it. There is a Perko switch to isolate the engine start battery and another one that goes to 1,2,all or off. The inverter has been the original and has been the pargon of reliability. It is smart and won't let the batteries get to low. They have been bought out by Xantrex I believe.
I have been extremely happy with the Heart inverter on my 1990 Hunter 42'. I would copy the way hunter installed it. There is a Perko switch to isolate the engine start battery and another one that goes to 1,2,all or off. The inverter has been the original and has been the pargon of reliability. It is smart and won't let the batteries get to low. They have been bought out by Xantrex I believe.
Item 3
Re item 3, Alternator - House bank connection "permanently connected to the alternator": Even though this setup appears to have support from a couple reputable sources, I don't see the need for this kind of setup. Is it to prevent ruining the alternator by inadvertently switching the batteries off with the engine running? Personally, I prefer the more typical installation with a cable from the alternator to the selector switch. I've never had a problem remembering to turn the engine off before switching batteries to the off position. Our setup has a 1-2-Both-Off for the house bank (four golf carts) and a Master, high-ampere Blue Sea swith, 1-2-Both-Off for the starter and house bank. All main cable runs from the Master switch are fused (Main panel, sub panel, inverter, etc.).
Re item 3, Alternator - House bank connection "permanently connected to the alternator": Even though this setup appears to have support from a couple reputable sources, I don't see the need for this kind of setup. Is it to prevent ruining the alternator by inadvertently switching the batteries off with the engine running? Personally, I prefer the more typical installation with a cable from the alternator to the selector switch. I've never had a problem remembering to turn the engine off before switching batteries to the off position. Our setup has a 1-2-Both-Off for the house bank (four golf carts) and a Master, high-ampere Blue Sea swith, 1-2-Both-Off for the starter and house bank. All main cable runs from the Master switch are fused (Main panel, sub panel, inverter, etc.).
Permanent connection
John, Most Hunters use the starter wire as the alternator charge wire. In those instances it makes sense to run the starter/alternator wire off the 1-2-Both switch common. I think that the recommendation for the direct connection has more to do with those instances where there is not a shared wire. If the alternator wire is dedicated and hooked to at least one battery, you will always have charging when the engine is running to at least that battery. You can still manually parallel the batteries by putting the switches on both providing charging to all batteries. This system also eliminates that issue of switching off the alternator while the engine is running as you point out. Although I agree that this is not a particularly difficult issue to deal with in a fully manual system. It's really a minor difference but changing the Hunter from one to the other does require a bit of rewiring. You can see our other post to follow what we did on our 356. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
John, Most Hunters use the starter wire as the alternator charge wire. In those instances it makes sense to run the starter/alternator wire off the 1-2-Both switch common. I think that the recommendation for the direct connection has more to do with those instances where there is not a shared wire. If the alternator wire is dedicated and hooked to at least one battery, you will always have charging when the engine is running to at least that battery. You can still manually parallel the batteries by putting the switches on both providing charging to all batteries. This system also eliminates that issue of switching off the alternator while the engine is running as you point out. Although I agree that this is not a particularly difficult issue to deal with in a fully manual system. It's really a minor difference but changing the Hunter from one to the other does require a bit of rewiring. You can see our other post to follow what we did on our 356. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
I Stand Corrected
Now that you mention it I remember a setup where there was a wire going from the alternator to the starter and thence to somewhere else and it probably was the hot wire. I did some rewiring years ago after having some difficulty starting and this is probably what I changed. Hunter probably saves a buck or so by not running two wires linked together at the starter. In my rewiring I removed the OEM automotive wires and installed individual (one each to the starter and alternator) and larger tin-plated Anchor wires and connectors. Daniel, thanks for correcting my mis-statement. -= John =-
Now that you mention it I remember a setup where there was a wire going from the alternator to the starter and thence to somewhere else and it probably was the hot wire. I did some rewiring years ago after having some difficulty starting and this is probably what I changed. Hunter probably saves a buck or so by not running two wires linked together at the starter. In my rewiring I removed the OEM automotive wires and installed individual (one each to the starter and alternator) and larger tin-plated Anchor wires and connectors. Daniel, thanks for correcting my mis-statement. -= John =-
Alternator Connection
John, Did not really intend my response as a correction, just a clarification. If you have already run the two wires you can easily conform to the recommendations by taking the dedicated alternator wire off the common and placing it on either switch 1 or 2 of your master switch. Leave the starter wire on the common. Make sure the location you choose for the alternator wire (1 or 2) is the one that is direct to a battery and not the one that goes through the other sub-switch. Your system will still work pretty much the same, your master switch needs to be in both to charge all batteries (like it probably does now). If the alternator is hooked to 1 (let's call that starter) and the house sub-switch is hooked to 2, then putting the master switch on 2 does not cause the house batteries to charge (starter battery still charges). The down side to doing it this way is that your battery charger may work differently when charging than the alternator, which can be confusing. On most newer Hunters, I believe that the charger legs are run direct to the battery bank, or actually to both switch 1 and 2. If that is the case then charging occurs regardless of the switch location. That may not be true in relation to your sub-switch. In our 290 we have a set-up similar to yours. We have a starter battery on main switch 1. We have a sub switch with two group 27 AGM's and the common of this switch runs to position 2 on the master switch. We wired the three charger legs to Master switch side 1, sub switch side 1 and 2. Our batteries will charge off the charger even with the switches off. Our alternator wire (shared with the starter), goes to master common. We have to make sure that we are properly switched to charge all batteries. As you indicated, this is not troublesome, but is something you have to be aware of. On our 356 we have two group 4d agm's on each side of the master switch. The common is hooked to the charger / inverter. We segregated the starter circuit completely using a group 27 agm. We have a simple on/off battery switch for it and the ability to mechanically combine the batteries if necessary (through another on/off switch). The batteries are all combined for charging using a Pathmaker 200 amp three bank combiner. I'm not sure that our system is better than what comes stock. I say that because although it does remove the starter issue away from the house batteries, it introduced a level of complexity that was not there before. If I ever manage to run the house banks down enough to make a difference, I'll be glad I did it. Just because the system is complex, we did add the abilty to mechanically combine the batteries, even though the Pathmaker does allow that to occur with the flip of a switch. So we have redundancy even for the Pathmaker. On the 290 we isolate the starter battery mechanically, by remembering to switch it out of the circuit when the motor is not running. On the 356 it all happens automatically. Probably more information than anyone is interested is. Dan Jonas (S/V Fieje II)
John, Did not really intend my response as a correction, just a clarification. If you have already run the two wires you can easily conform to the recommendations by taking the dedicated alternator wire off the common and placing it on either switch 1 or 2 of your master switch. Leave the starter wire on the common. Make sure the location you choose for the alternator wire (1 or 2) is the one that is direct to a battery and not the one that goes through the other sub-switch. Your system will still work pretty much the same, your master switch needs to be in both to charge all batteries (like it probably does now). If the alternator is hooked to 1 (let's call that starter) and the house sub-switch is hooked to 2, then putting the master switch on 2 does not cause the house batteries to charge (starter battery still charges). The down side to doing it this way is that your battery charger may work differently when charging than the alternator, which can be confusing. On most newer Hunters, I believe that the charger legs are run direct to the battery bank, or actually to both switch 1 and 2. If that is the case then charging occurs regardless of the switch location. That may not be true in relation to your sub-switch. In our 290 we have a set-up similar to yours. We have a starter battery on main switch 1. We have a sub switch with two group 27 AGM's and the common of this switch runs to position 2 on the master switch. We wired the three charger legs to Master switch side 1, sub switch side 1 and 2. Our batteries will charge off the charger even with the switches off. Our alternator wire (shared with the starter), goes to master common. We have to make sure that we are properly switched to charge all batteries. As you indicated, this is not troublesome, but is something you have to be aware of. On our 356 we have two group 4d agm's on each side of the master switch. The common is hooked to the charger / inverter. We segregated the starter circuit completely using a group 27 agm. We have a simple on/off battery switch for it and the ability to mechanically combine the batteries if necessary (through another on/off switch). The batteries are all combined for charging using a Pathmaker 200 amp three bank combiner. I'm not sure that our system is better than what comes stock. I say that because although it does remove the starter issue away from the house batteries, it introduced a level of complexity that was not there before. If I ever manage to run the house banks down enough to make a difference, I'll be glad I did it. Just because the system is complex, we did add the abilty to mechanically combine the batteries, even though the Pathmaker does allow that to occur with the flip of a switch. So we have redundancy even for the Pathmaker. On the 290 we isolate the starter battery mechanically, by remembering to switch it out of the circuit when the motor is not running. On the 356 it all happens automatically. Probably more information than anyone is interested is. Dan Jonas (S/V Fieje II)
Good Explaination
That was a really good explaination and I'll go over it better at a later date. At the moment I have other problems - my new batteries are just a tad too tall for the spaces they're supposed to fit in and I have to decide what to do in the morning as I'm taking off. Thanks again for all your effort. -= John =-
That was a really good explaination and I'll go over it better at a later date. At the moment I have other problems - my new batteries are just a tad too tall for the spaces they're supposed to fit in and I have to decide what to do in the morning as I'm taking off. Thanks again for all your effort. -= John =-
- Status