Ive been sailing for a long time but Ive only had roller furl for a short time. What I have done in the past when it breezed up is reef my main. If the breeze continued to freshen I would take the main down and continue on jib alone. I see other sailors who partially roll their jib and continue on ok, but It just dosent seem to work out for me Every time I try this the boat just wont sail up wind. It just seems to start bouncing and making leeway. The shape of the partially rolled jib seems wrong. Am I missing something?
Questions About rollerfurling jibd
- Thread starter bffatcat
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It depends on the sail. Some turn into bags with a little reefing. Foam luff sails are going out of fashion but my foam luff 125% Genoa is just as good at the first reef as full, nearly as good at the second, and will still get me to windward acceptably at three reefs.
You may need a new sail.
You may need a new sail.
You're probably not missing much. First, some rollers are not meant to reef at all - they're either all in or all out. And even the ones that are designed to reef... the shape of the jib gets compromised, and there's a big roll of sail at the front, similar to the mast. You can get a "foam luff" that supposedly reshapes the jib as it's rolled in, but it mainly just flattens it.
One thing you might try - do you change your sheet block when you reef? It has to be moved forward so the sheet is still at the same angle.
Roller reefing on a jib is a compromise. It does work, but not as well as actually hanking on a smaller jib.
One disadvantage of sailing jib only in higher winds is that the jib is probably made of a fairly light material (to do well in light air) and carrying it in stronger winds will stretch it out.
druid
One thing you might try - do you change your sheet block when you reef? It has to be moved forward so the sheet is still at the same angle.
Roller reefing on a jib is a compromise. It does work, but not as well as actually hanking on a smaller jib.
One disadvantage of sailing jib only in higher winds is that the jib is probably made of a fairly light material (to do well in light air) and carrying it in stronger winds will stretch it out.
druid
The max. roll-up you can get with any furled headsail without losing 'good' shape is about 30%. Beyond ~30% reduction the sail will become overly baggy, especially in the middle sections.
Question: are you moving the jib cars forward when you roller-reef the head sail? If not you might want to consider such. If you dont move the cars forward you will lost a LOT of 'effective' sail area ... as the head of the jib sail begins to flog.
All the Shaw designed Pearsons sail better to wind with the main reefed 'first' .... before you start roller reefing the jib/genoa.
Hello,
As previously mentioned, some sails (and furlers) are designed to be partially furled, and others are not. Even the sails that are designed to be furled are only supposed to be furled a small amount. For example, I have a 140% on my boat. The sailmaker put a stripe along the bottom foot of the sail to show me where the sail can be furled too. When 'reefed' it is now a 110% and has decent shape. So I can have a full 140% or a reefed 110%.
On my boat, if the wind picks up enough to make me reef, I first reduce the headsail to a 110. If the wind picks up another few knots, I have to reef the main. Still more wind and I drop the main totally. I can sail in 30 kt winds with just the headsail reduced to the 110 and have decent performance.
Barry
As previously mentioned, some sails (and furlers) are designed to be partially furled, and others are not. Even the sails that are designed to be furled are only supposed to be furled a small amount. For example, I have a 140% on my boat. The sailmaker put a stripe along the bottom foot of the sail to show me where the sail can be furled too. When 'reefed' it is now a 110% and has decent shape. So I can have a full 140% or a reefed 110%.
On my boat, if the wind picks up enough to make me reef, I first reduce the headsail to a 110. If the wind picks up another few knots, I have to reef the main. Still more wind and I drop the main totally. I can sail in 30 kt winds with just the headsail reduced to the 110 and have decent performance.
Barry
I had a Furlex S100 installed and my 150%+ Genoa modified with a "foam luff"
and a UV strip to fit the furler on my previous Hunter sailboat. This worked fairly well but the Genoa was so just big that at full out it was only good for a dead down wind run with a Whisker pole and I had to keep moving the sheet blocks to get the proper sheet angle. Most of the time I used it at about 80% of the max size.
My present CAL 2-25 sailboat has a very high Yankee-cut Genoa of about 125%; with foam luff and UV strip, on a new Harken 00 furler. It works remarkably well at all reef stages and probably due to the high-cut I do not need to adjust the sheet blocks.
and a UV strip to fit the furler on my previous Hunter sailboat. This worked fairly well but the Genoa was so just big that at full out it was only good for a dead down wind run with a Whisker pole and I had to keep moving the sheet blocks to get the proper sheet angle. Most of the time I used it at about 80% of the max size.
My present CAL 2-25 sailboat has a very high Yankee-cut Genoa of about 125%; with foam luff and UV strip, on a new Harken 00 furler. It works remarkably well at all reef stages and probably due to the high-cut I do not need to adjust the sheet blocks.
The sail acts like a wing. Full out, the leading edge is smooth and provide smooth airflow over the length of a properly trimmed sail creating lift over the fron 1/4 (ish) of the sail thereby pulling the boat alone. Now, mount a telephone pole to the front of the wing and see how smooth that airflow would be. Kind of a moronic example but it's sort of whats happening. Many sails can take the luff being rolled to some extent but ther is the law-of-diminishing-returns at work here. There is a point where the sail will nolonger provide any lift but lots of drag and only add to the heeling forces. I'd strike the main in a fresh breeze and play with furlin to different degrees, then you'll know how you fair. Every boat has its own personality.
dscribner, you described it perfectly. As the sail is furled the entry becomes fatter and less aerodynamic. The telephone pole is a good analogy. After furling 30% the efficiency of the sail decreases dramatically. The drag and heeling forces overwhelm lift and the bow slides sideways. Also, as RichH explains, the sheet lead must be moved to maintain an ever decreasing shape efficiency to maximum. Sailing off the wind with a partially furled sail will not cause much problem no matter what you do, but trying to sail to weather requires good sail shape and proper trim to accomplish.
dscribner, if you use Mozilla Firefox as your browser it comes with a spell check program the automatically highlights any errors and makes spelling suggestions. I love it.
dscribner, if you use Mozilla Firefox as your browser it comes with a spell check program the automatically highlights any errors and makes spelling suggestions. I love it.
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Dscribner, might I recommend you type your post in a word processor application and then cut / paste your response into the forum once all your editing is done.
Most up-to-date browsers do have a plug-in for spell checking. You may have it disabled on yours.
Most up-to-date browsers do have a plug-in for spell checking. You may have it disabled on yours.
Sailing w/ Jib only
Ok I am still green and want to put this out there to those who have lots of experience. Just cause one guy said it doesn't make it a new gospel.
One of my sailing instructors taught me that sailing with jib only was a big no-no. He called it "Lazy sailing" in a very condescending tone and was indicitave of poor sailing knowledge and also bad for boat. Said it pulled mast forward which put too much stress on back stay and could damage things.
Wish I had my camera cause I saw lots of boats with just jib out tooling along happy as clams. From a distance it was possible to see the mast raked forward under stress so I got what the instructor meant clear as day.
BUT, does this make it wrong????? :stirthepot:
As for me it was a wonderful day yesterday on Barnegat bay. It was quite gusty at times and I furled my jib about 30% and seemed to do okay. Then would drop jib and just have main. Then back out with Jib. I didn't mind as I got lots of experience which I need.
Ok I am still green and want to put this out there to those who have lots of experience. Just cause one guy said it doesn't make it a new gospel.
One of my sailing instructors taught me that sailing with jib only was a big no-no. He called it "Lazy sailing" in a very condescending tone and was indicitave of poor sailing knowledge and also bad for boat. Said it pulled mast forward which put too much stress on back stay and could damage things.
Wish I had my camera cause I saw lots of boats with just jib out tooling along happy as clams. From a distance it was possible to see the mast raked forward under stress so I got what the instructor meant clear as day.
BUT, does this make it wrong????? :stirthepot:
As for me it was a wonderful day yesterday on Barnegat bay. It was quite gusty at times and I furled my jib about 30% and seemed to do okay. Then would drop jib and just have main. Then back out with Jib. I didn't mind as I got lots of experience which I need.
Well, your sailing instructor is just plain WRONG.
The stress applied from the jib to the mast is additive. So, when the jib and main are flying would result in MORE stress being applied to the same rigging system .... the stress applied being a function of TOTAL exposed sail area and wind strength.
Does flying headsails only work efficiently?
Yes indeed it does. For instance, last fall-winter (October-Feb) along the entire US east coast the wind blew so hard and so constantly from the NORTH that the *majority of boats* (hundreds upon hundreds) traveling offshore to 'de islands' simply used their jibs only. It only took 5 days from Annapolis - all the way- to the southern Bahamas .... solely on a partly furled jib! To expose more sail area would have caused these boats to exceed their 'hull speed' which can be dangerous.
I'd say that this particular 'instructor' lacks 'actual' sailing experience (and basic scientific experience/knowledge).
I have a 150 furling genoa on my boat and have found, contrary to what appears to be "common wisdom," that I can roll up this sail to just about any size I want and the boat will still perform well. Long distance cruiser Webb Chiles has written about his experiences with rolling up his headsail to a mere hankerchief when needed. But first things first: the reason you reef is that the wind is up and want to maintain a safe speed and boat control. While my rolled up genoa begins to lose shape at the luff due to the bulk of the sail rolled up on itself, the shape of the sail exposed to the wind is really of little concern to me once my boat is doing hull speed. No matter how I might "improve" the shape of that rolled up sail, my boat is not going to go any faster -- all it can do is go slower. For example, I have sailed my current boat in 30 kts of wind with one reef in the main and the genoa rolled up to about 40 per cent (which approaches the size of a storm sail). Boat was cooking along at over 7 kts. I can't do better than that.
I've also found that my boat will sail farily well, albeit slower, with only one or the other sail up, I've also found that any "slot" is better than no slot.
I've also found that my boat will sail farily well, albeit slower, with only one or the other sail up, I've also found that any "slot" is better than no slot.
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Oh - one thing to add: my old genoa sailed really well upwind until I roller-reefed it, then it had almost no upwind drive, similar to what you describe. Turned out the LUFF of the sail was in great shape, but the aft half was pretty much blown out - probably from being up in heavy winds, reefed. Got a new, heavier genoa and all is well!
druid
druid
comment #2 on rolling up jibs
From the comments ive read on this thread Im not the only one having trouble sailing up wind
with a partially rolled jib. Some of you seem to do ok others not so good. It dosent matter if
I move my blocks forward or I dont, the same situation continues to happen. My sails are
are about 4 seasons old and in reasonably good shape. Im going to continue what ive been doing. That is if it breezes up I reef my main first. If that dosent do it I take the main down
I will add this. I have never tried to roll my genoa down because its never up when its breezy.
If things look like its gonna be breezy and the Genoa is on the furler I take it down on the mooring and replace it with a working jib. I would rather do a little work than be sorry later.
From the comments ive read on this thread Im not the only one having trouble sailing up wind
with a partially rolled jib. Some of you seem to do ok others not so good. It dosent matter if
I move my blocks forward or I dont, the same situation continues to happen. My sails are
are about 4 seasons old and in reasonably good shape. Im going to continue what ive been doing. That is if it breezes up I reef my main first. If that dosent do it I take the main down
I will add this. I have never tried to roll my genoa down because its never up when its breezy.
If things look like its gonna be breezy and the Genoa is on the furler I take it down on the mooring and replace it with a working jib. I would rather do a little work than be sorry later.
How is it that folks with the least experience and the most inaccurate advice always seem to pass off their personal OPINIONS as FACT to those paying good money for their "expertise"... Really sad..
These days I sail, when with my family, under a 150 genny because my main sheet comes down right in the cockpit and I don't want a 3.5 year old getting tangled in it. When sailing solo or without family the main goes up. Boat sails great under genny alone and even balances quite well but this is often boat specific and what applies and works on one won't or may not work quite as well on another.
Our genny furls quite well, even without a foam luff. We do have a Harken MK IV furler with independent head & tack swivels. These swivels allow the head and tack to lag behind the foil as you pull on the furling line. This feature allows the center of the sail to furl first and the tack and clew lag behind because they independently swivel on their own. While many furlers have an independent top swivel only the Harken has both top and bottom swivels that are independent. It does result in an excellent furled sail shape. Still, I do not ever expect the sail to perform as it would all the way out. I can usually always make hull speed, even when reefed on genny alone, and only a few degrees off "ideal" pointing for our boat, something which I just accept.. Beating to weather when you need a reef is not really pleasurable fun anyway. I usually fall off a few degrees for a drier and smoother ride..
My boat is one of those that doesn't sail to the weather under jib only. But it does sail very nicely off the wind with just the jib. I can sail to the weather with just the main but can sail closer with both sails balancing the boat.
Boy, I love this site!
I am curious about max boat speed? A Catalina 30 should have a boat speed of 6.5kt yet I've seen my speed through the water as high as 7.5! How does this happen? I have done this with jib alone.
We're still learning and I love experimenting. sailing home yesterday with full sails we rounded a corner and the winds piped up. Started feeling excessive weather helm and saw fear in my wife's eyes. I reefed the jib about 30% but didn't move the Jib cars forward. (I will do that from now on. Thank you RichH). It made a huge difference in our comfort. I lost about 1/2kt. We were pointing little better than 45° which I think is pretty good for a wing keel.
Anyone have a site that will give you the wind speed for the previous day in a given location? The forecast said 15-20 with gusts to 25kt. I'd love to know what it actually was.
I am curious about max boat speed? A Catalina 30 should have a boat speed of 6.5kt yet I've seen my speed through the water as high as 7.5! How does this happen? I have done this with jib alone.
We're still learning and I love experimenting. sailing home yesterday with full sails we rounded a corner and the winds piped up. Started feeling excessive weather helm and saw fear in my wife's eyes. I reefed the jib about 30% but didn't move the Jib cars forward. (I will do that from now on. Thank you RichH). It made a huge difference in our comfort. I lost about 1/2kt. We were pointing little better than 45° which I think is pretty good for a wing keel.
Anyone have a site that will give you the wind speed for the previous day in a given location? The forecast said 15-20 with gusts to 25kt. I'd love to know what it actually was.
I understand exactly what you mean. What I love so much about this forum is that no baloney will go unchallenged for very long. We pays our money and takes our chances. I dont hold any grudges as I'm sure he taught me some things of value while other things were off the mark. Oh well. Take the pearls and leave the junk behind. It's all good in the end.
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