Peggy, I'm hoping you can help me out with a little education and advice. I have a Hunter 28.5 with a practically brand new Jabsco manual toilet. I have a feeling the plumbing on this boat between the toilet discharge and the holding tank is not very "optimal". The head is on the starboard side with the holding tank under the aft berth on the port side. The elevation of the holding tank (vertical center point) is about even with the base of the toilet. The hose connecting the two is pretty much a straight shot right through the engine compartment and it's on a slightly uphill run towards the tank (when not heeling). The hose connection on the tank is on the inboard side of the tank. When we're heeling to starboard with the holding tank above half full or so, it seems the heeling causes the contents of the tank to run down the hose against the joker valve. The joker valve holds for the most part, but does seep slowly. After a long run on port tack, there can be a enough stuff in the bowl to cause some odor requiring a flush every now and then to clear it. My tank is small enough that I don't want to have to flush the same stuff more than once. So here are my questions. Would it be a good idea to add a loop on the discharge hose between the toilet and tank to help prevent this? Will the pump on the toilet be strong enough to push waste up over the loop? Or do you have another suggestion that would solve this? Thanks, Dave
Question - toilet discharge hose....
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Go up near the pump, perhaps
I installed a Raritan II manual in my M26X, which has very little room under the deck of the enclosed head. So I went up, not down with the waste hose. From the top of the pump the pipe rises 14 inches to an elbow where the drop downhill to the tank is four inches. I connected to a 12 gallon poly tank by schedule 40 pvc pipe. A macerator is in one bottom port of the tank to discharge out the sink drain if offshore, or in the backyard where I have a hose to take waste rom the sink drain thruhull to the house plumbing cleanout port. The other end of the tank has a pvc pipe to a thru hull fitting 34" up at the gunwale to allow vacuum pumpouts at shore facilities. Using ridid pvc except for a new inches at the pump and thruhull connections eliminated all odors. The 14 inch rise is higher than a full tank level would be so no tank waste is forced back up line to the toilet. The 14 inches of waste not pumped out just above the joker valve has caused no odor or other functional problems so far. My waste line runs fore and aft, where heeling doesn't affect it as much, but I think a a good loop of at least 18" height right after the joker would help your situation which runs athwartships. My boat's head doesn't get heavy use, so I only have to empty once or twice per year. Your case might be different depending on tankage capacity, number of crew, amount of beer consumed etc. Hope this helps.
I installed a Raritan II manual in my M26X, which has very little room under the deck of the enclosed head. So I went up, not down with the waste hose. From the top of the pump the pipe rises 14 inches to an elbow where the drop downhill to the tank is four inches. I connected to a 12 gallon poly tank by schedule 40 pvc pipe. A macerator is in one bottom port of the tank to discharge out the sink drain if offshore, or in the backyard where I have a hose to take waste rom the sink drain thruhull to the house plumbing cleanout port. The other end of the tank has a pvc pipe to a thru hull fitting 34" up at the gunwale to allow vacuum pumpouts at shore facilities. Using ridid pvc except for a new inches at the pump and thruhull connections eliminated all odors. The 14 inch rise is higher than a full tank level would be so no tank waste is forced back up line to the toilet. The 14 inches of waste not pumped out just above the joker valve has caused no odor or other functional problems so far. My waste line runs fore and aft, where heeling doesn't affect it as much, but I think a a good loop of at least 18" height right after the joker would help your situation which runs athwartships. My boat's head doesn't get heavy use, so I only have to empty once or twice per year. Your case might be different depending on tankage capacity, number of crew, amount of beer consumed etc. Hope this helps.
A loop would be a good idea.
I went through this recently with Peggy, so let's see if I learned anything! The pump will push waste and water over even a 4 foot loop and even in dry mode! I didn't believe Peggy
and tested it myself. It won't empty the uphill side, but it will push the waste and most of the flush water over the top. The downside in your situation is that you won't be able to get ALL of the waste/water out of the discharge hose - there will always be something pressing on the Joker valve. A couple of pumps on 'wet' after the bowl is empty and then some 'dry' strokes will make sure that what is in the bottom of the discharge hose is clean (and in your case, fresh) water. A vent is not required in this (toilet to holding tank) loop, although in your case, if a siphon manages to get started while you are on port tack, it will continue untill all available waste is out of the tank and into your toilet/salon/bilge. Both Raritan and Jabsco call for a vented loop in this line if the toilet is below the holding tank intake at any time. One alternate solution (adapted from one of Peggy's) is that if you can move your holding tank intake hole to the outboard side of the tank, it would be above the waste level when you are on port tack. On starboard, the toilet would be above the tank. That may or may not be a solution in your situation. If you're putting in a (vented?) loop on the discharge line, remember that a VENTED loop is required between the pump and the toilet bowl if the toilet is below the waterline at any time. OK, there is my opinion. It's comforting to know that Peggy will let us know if I got something wrong!!!! ;-) Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
I went through this recently with Peggy, so let's see if I learned anything! The pump will push waste and water over even a 4 foot loop and even in dry mode! I didn't believe Peggy
and tested it myself. It won't empty the uphill side, but it will push the waste and most of the flush water over the top. The downside in your situation is that you won't be able to get ALL of the waste/water out of the discharge hose - there will always be something pressing on the Joker valve. A couple of pumps on 'wet' after the bowl is empty and then some 'dry' strokes will make sure that what is in the bottom of the discharge hose is clean (and in your case, fresh) water. A vent is not required in this (toilet to holding tank) loop, although in your case, if a siphon manages to get started while you are on port tack, it will continue untill all available waste is out of the tank and into your toilet/salon/bilge. Both Raritan and Jabsco call for a vented loop in this line if the toilet is below the holding tank intake at any time. One alternate solution (adapted from one of Peggy's) is that if you can move your holding tank intake hole to the outboard side of the tank, it would be above the waste level when you are on port tack. On starboard, the toilet would be above the tank. That may or may not be a solution in your situation. If you're putting in a (vented?) loop on the discharge line, remember that a VENTED loop is required between the pump and the toilet bowl if the toilet is below the waterline at any time. OK, there is my opinion. It's comforting to know that Peggy will let us know if I got something wrong!!!! ;-) Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
You got two good answers...
By golly, Bob...you really did pay attention! I'd only question two things in night sailor's installation: connecting the macerator directly to the tank instead of putting enough hose between 'em to cushion shock or stress, 'cuz the spin-welded female tank fitting is the weakest link in that connection...and if the weld should crack, you'd have to replace the tank, 'cuz although a new fitting could be spin-welded into the tank, no one will do it 'cuz NObody will work on a used holding tank. using a sink drain to dump the holding tank, 'cuz there's nothing to prevent e-coli and other nasty germs from migrating into the sink. As for the use of hard pipe, it's only recommended for long straight runs, which are kinda hard to find on sailboats, especially small ones. But whether you want to use it or use good quality sanitation hose is your choice.
By golly, Bob...you really did pay attention!
I'd only question two things in night sailor's installation: connecting the macerator directly to the tank instead of putting enough hose between 'em to cushion shock or stress, 'cuz the spin-welded female tank fitting is the weakest link in that connection...and if the weld should crack, you'd have to replace the tank, 'cuz although a new fitting could be spin-welded into the tank, no one will do it 'cuz NObody will work on a used holding tank. using a sink drain to dump the holding tank, 'cuz there's nothing to prevent e-coli and other nasty germs from migrating into the sink. As for the use of hard pipe, it's only recommended for long straight runs, which are kinda hard to find on sailboats, especially small ones. But whether you want to use it or use good quality sanitation hose is your choice.Followup question...
Thanks for the info everyone. Sounds like a loop is a simple way to go to help with this. I figured as much but wanted to bounce it off of someone else to verify. As for the loop, should I get one of those 180-degree loop fittings with no vent? Or is there some other way to make the loop? I don't think that type of hose will bend enough in the small space I have. Thanks again, Dave
Thanks for the info everyone. Sounds like a loop is a simple way to go to help with this. I figured as much but wanted to bounce it off of someone else to verify. As for the loop, should I get one of those 180-degree loop fittings with no vent? Or is there some other way to make the loop? I don't think that type of hose will bend enough in the small space I have. Thanks again, Dave
Use the fitting...
The photo shows what can happen if you try to bend a hose tighter than it wants to bend willingly.
The photo shows what can happen if you try to bend a hose tighter than it wants to bend willingly.
That's another reason I used the vented loop.
The loop has 3 neat mounting flanges. Here's a picture of both the loops after I installed them. Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
The loop has 3 neat mounting flanges. Here's a picture of both the loops after I installed them. Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
Dave...
wish I could post some pictures, but not possible. Had same problem on my old 28.5 and I installed my vented loop in the rear of the engine compartment. If you are looking at the engine from the front, my loop was at the back and top of left corner (strbd) of the compartment. Out from head, under/through bulkhead and up to loop, down from loop and back to holding tank. Worked very well.
wish I could post some pictures, but not possible. Had same problem on my old 28.5 and I installed my vented loop in the rear of the engine compartment. If you are looking at the engine from the front, my loop was at the back and top of left corner (strbd) of the compartment. Out from head, under/through bulkhead and up to loop, down from loop and back to holding tank. Worked very well.
Thanks!
Thanks everyone for the excellent info! Honeyman, That's exactly where I planned to install mine. Thanks for letting me know that someone else has "been there" with the 28.5. Should be a simple install and I'm looking forward to having this problem solved. Dave
Thanks everyone for the excellent info! Honeyman, That's exactly where I planned to install mine. Thanks for letting me know that someone else has "been there" with the 28.5. Should be a simple install and I'm looking forward to having this problem solved. Dave
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