Question about the 220 uf 100v capacitor

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Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
.......However, during this stage and if the "non feedback" regulator does as per the example above (which we do not know), at about 13.5 volts, the regulator in the outboard (which is connected but not running) turns on and begins to dissipate 40 watts. For the 200 watts of panel, let’s say it’s putting out 150 watts. Since 40 of that is being burned up in the outboard regulator, 110 watts still charges the battery so you might not even know this is going on. But.. you are not getting a good portion of the solar output (losing way more than the boost from MPPT). With my 40 watt panel, the same example would have wiped out pretty much all the power from the panel. .
I seem to be getting the amps I'd expect from the solar panels with the outboard connected all of the time. I'd think if this is a problem then a lot of people who don't have panels but have their outboards connected all of the time would have dead batteries.



Are those diodes in the lines from the mag to the regulator and maybe between the regulator to the battery. If so wouldn't they stop current from the battery back through the regulator?

Sum

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walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,546
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
I'd think if this is a problem then a lot of people who don't have panels but have their outboards connected all of the time would have dead batteries.
Nope.. I almost hate to discuss this since we don’t know what is going on with the regulator in the outboard both Sumner and I have and could be spreading wrong info.. but I believe that “ rec/reg” module would have a bridge rectifier (set of 4 diodes) connected with two wires back to the alternator coil. The output of the bridge rectifier is pulsed “DC” current and then goes into the regulator circuit which is also connected to the battery. More guessing but the regulator circuit is just something that monitors the voltage (which is the battery voltage) and it switches in a resistor to ground if some voltage level is exceeded – like 13.5 volts.

Since a 100% charged battery at rest never gets above 13 volts (I think it might be 12.7, didn’t check for accuracy), this will not turn on the regular in the outboard and the reverse bias rectifier diodes also make sure no current flows. So the current into the outboard would be some small leakage (like in the micro amp range) and would not at all discharge the battery.

It is only when you add some external charging circuit like solar or a three stage battery maintainer that you can have the battery voltage go above the example number of 13.5 volts. The regulator in the outboard doesn’t know who is causing the voltage to go above 13.5 volts, it simply would switch in the resistive load if it saw this. We could then have the situation I described in the previous response.

This is also the sort of thing that really needs a controlled experiment to find out what really happens. If anyone has done a controlled experiment, I’d like to hear about it (what are the test conditions, setup, variables, voltage and current numbers). The experiment I proposed earlier I think would be a good way to tell for sure.

FYI, I think what sort of looks like a diode is a connector in that diagram.
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
I just ran a test. I'm not an elect. engineer so don't know the validity of it but here is what I did.

I took a 12 volt car battery that has been sitting in the shop.

1. It was at 11.9 volts at the beginning of test.

2. Put a fairly good charger on it and let it run for a bit.

3. Had a volt meter on the battery posts while charging. Over about 15 minutes the charger showed the battery about 25% charge and the the 50% charge light came on next. At this point the volt meter on the posts had climbed from the mid 12 volt range up to 13.92 volts so the charger was pretty much in bulk I assume (it is a 3 stage charger).

4. I also had the negative lead from the 9.8 Tohatsu (elect. start) going to the negative terminal of the battery during all of this.

5. I had a second meter set to the 10 amp setting and connected between the positive battery post and the positive lead going to the outboard during this period.

6. It showed no amps going to the outboard at the beginning of the test when the battery voltage was low and also no amps going to the outboard when the charger was putting out 13.92 volts to the battery.

7. To make sure the amp meter was working I inserted it for a moment between the charger and battery. The charger is a 6 amp charger that you can set to 2 amps, 4 amps or 6 amps. I had it set to the 6 amp setting during the complete test.

From this I'd say there must be some circuitry inside the controller on the outboard to handle the situation,

Sum

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walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,546
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
That looks like you did "option 2" test in the previous post and you saw ZERO current when the voltage was 13.92 volts.

This looks like a valid test and it says that my model is NOT correct at least up to 13.92 volts. I.e., the outboard regulator does not draw any current up to 13.92 volts from an external source.

Which is good..

Sumner, you could also verify in your "lab" if the outboard appears to have a regulator or not.

Put the outboard in a large enough bucket with water (uh.. really nice time of year to try this when any water outside is going to be solid). Just measure the current the outboard is producing at a constant RPM (say about 1/3 throttle under load). You must do this measurement with the output of the outboard into a battery or a power supply as any open circuit measurements really dont mean anything (ie, just measuring the open outputs from the outboard). This will be a little difficult given that your voltage source is a battery and you can’t control it but it would be interesting to see exactly what the current was from the outboard into the battery for a range of battery voltages from say 13 up to a little over 14 - all measured at the same rpm..

Maybe that regulator does have some sort of non feeback regulation but it is able to isolate the input from the output? This would be a good thing..
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
....Sumner, you could also verify in your "lab" if the outboard appears to have a regulator or not. ....
Update on the test. Charger still says it is working at the 50% charge (has 25,50 75 and 100 indicators). The voltage has climbed to 14.01 volts. I'm stopping the test as I have to get the stuff off the top of the table saw to use it.

Sorry don't have time for any other testing. I'm trying to put in a sink, counter, second counter and large bookshelf for Ruth in the sunroom and need to get going on projects for the Endeavour.

So far the eye operation they did on her last Thursday seems to be doing well. We returned home yesterday afternoon after the doc looked at it. If it holds good he said that he felt comfortable with us going to Florida the end of Jan. so hopefully that is the plan. Lots to do between now and then,

Sum

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walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,546
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
I did a little more looking around at the regulators for the permanent magnet alternators we have in these small outboards. You can find a little on the net from forum discussion but possibly not of much use. However, always a good place to get good quality information on something that has been around as long as outboard alternators are US patents. A list of interesting US patents is:

7327123
6690145
6014324
4885493
4659978
4517483
4458195
4431959
4146838

(note – to look at any of these, simply google “patent #” for example, “patent 4431959”

What you will find are patents going way back (the last one on the list is from 1979) and there are many variations on circuit design for a regulator used in a permanent magnet alternator but in general, the rectifier has some sort of switched or controlled semiconductor device such as a SCR for either not switching in the coil output or only partially switching in the coil output. For example, a diode in a rectifier simply turns on when it is forward biased and all the energy from the coil is transferred to the output (battery). But with the switched SCR, the SCR would look like the diode when it’s switched on – but it may not be switched on for the complete duration of the current pulse from the coil. A control circuit looks at the output voltage (battery voltage) and controls the switching.

Also interesting is that patents for these regulator circuits as far back as 1984 have a method to accommodate the battery being discounted from the regulator while the alternator is running. I.e., the circuit has provisions so that it will not be damaged if the battery is disconnected. Patents back then were good for I believe 17 years so all this design is long since public – any manufacture can use this.

The type of load burning regulator we were just discussing (simply turns on a resistive load when some voltage is reached) turns out to be seriously outdated and probably hasn’t been used for “many decades”. I have seen plans for this type of device in several places on the internet from individuals but you probably would never find it on a commercial product.

Hard to still know for sure but at this point, I think based on this problem being around so long and from my own experience, that on my 2010 Nissan 9.8, I do not need to worry about it over-charging the batteries under any condition and also likely don’t need to worry about disconnecting the outboard from the battery while its running. This old problem probably is easy to solve and results in less hassle for the manufacture (less warranty issues) so almost for sure is in the design. This also means that I probably do not need the capacitors on the switch but I won’t be removing them either since I can’t be 100% sure and they don’t hurt anything.

The one thing I could not find in those patents is how to explain why I believe I was seeing 5 amps from my outboard at a fairly low rpm. Current should be proportional to rpm but I believe I saw near full rated current (spec is 6 amps) at a really low rpm. Some of those patents did talk about this a little with mechanical methods to change the permanent magnet flux by mechanical means but I doubt there is anything like that (too complex, expensive). It’s possible some sort of magnetic coil saturation is used but very little details about that also.

Anyhow, I’m liking the charging system in my 2010 Nissan 9.8 outboard more and more and also think that what Fourpoints did was likely a good mod for an older engine.
 

Kestle

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Jun 12, 2011
702
MacGregor 25 San Pedro
Sum:

Glad to hear the operation results are good so far. Please give her a hug and an adult beverage from us. We'll toast you guys when the stealth bombers fly overhead on Tuesday!

Also, the anchor is working out well...now I need to install a way to hang on the roller. Never ending projects, right?

Best - Jeff
 
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