Question about survey/Inspection

[dfp51]

Hello to all. I apologize for being wordy in my first post, but I am facing something of a conundrum. As background, my wife and I are returning to sailing after a several year hiatus. I grew up on power boats, and my wife grew up as a sailor. We sailed together for approximately 5 years, but kids activities etc forced us away for a time. So we have some familiarity with boats but are in no way experts. We are closing in on purchasing a 1984 O'Day 28 to use as a weekend cruiser/day sailer on the great lakes, primarily Erie. The boat is not terribly expensive for us (less than 15k), and we will not need a loan. I have been on the boat twice, once for a general look see and once again for a good couple of hours looking for problem areas. The boat was not launched this year because the current owners bought a larger boat with the intention of living aboard. The current owners are the second owners and have owned her for 8 years.

It appears to have been maintained exceptionally well, and was obviously cared for. There are a few problems we were able to discover. There were two soft spots on the cockpit sole that have been repaired by cutting out a square of plywood and replacing it (visible from the quarter berth access panel to the engine compartment). A single small soft spot (approx 1.5/2 in in diameter) exists around the stanchion closest to the pulpit on the starboard side. I was unable to discover any other deck issues, and I did some serious looking. There is evidence of some leakage down the mast (some staining on the teak and holly deck plate around the mast). One of the blocks used to control the spinnaker (about mid way up the mast) needs to be replaced, and there is some rigging the wife wants to change out (she has remained a club racer and knows far more about rigging and sails than I do). There is a rip in the UV strip on a furling 130% genoa that would have to be repaired or replaced. But pretty much that is all. I am by no means a mechanic, but the engine appears well cared for; no twisted hoses, cockeyed clamps, evidence of leakage, etc. There is no blistering of the hull, electrical and instrumentation is well cared for and laid out in an organized (honestly, somewhat compulsive) fashion.

My conundrum is that I am having the devil's own time trying to get a surveyor to even call me back, let alone come out and look at the boat. I don't know if this is a regional thing, if it is time of year issue, or if it is just that the boat is too small to justify the surveyor's time but I really didn't expect this to be a problem. I personally am confident the boat has been maintained appropriately, but I also am aware I am no marine mechanic or boat expert. I would like the piece of mind of having a survey done. So my question to those of you kind enough to read this is how confident would you be in buying a boat with out a survey, and what steps can you/would you take to increase your confidence level if a professional survey can't be performed?

Thanks in advance.

 

[vhoisington]

Sounds like you have done your homework. Having bought all 3 of my boats without a surveyor, I'll speak from that camp. First let me state, I am not personally a marine surveyor or a mechanic however, I do all of my own maintenance, repairs and upgrades on my boat. I have had both a Hunter 25 and a Hunter 28 the 28 being similar to the O'day you are looking at. We currently own a 1977 Islander freeport 41 ketch which we bought about 3 years ago and have added bimini, dodgers, sails and sailcovers and all new electronics, etc..

What are you expecting a surveyor to find or do for you? Unless you pay for a separate engine analysis, they won't provide much more details than what you have already provided, They generally don't go up the mast so you won't get any more details from that. It appears from your post that you have already sounded the deck for soft spots and made appropriate notes or repairs, the boat is out of the water so your able to see and sound the hull for blisters, etc. You know all of the electronics are working and have seen the condition of the sails. What else do you need?

When we purchased the Islander, like you, I spent several hours walking through the boat, examining the deck and rigging, crawling through the engine room and generally trying to find things which were in need of repair. I knew I was buying an old boat, which needed to be upgraded, When I had a survey completed (for insurance purposes) the worst he could come up with, that I didn't already know, was some minor corrosion on a chainplate bolt. Everything else was as I had seen it. I did get a nice 30 page survey which pretty much confirmed I had a sound boat with no known soft spots and which was in good condition for its age. But otherwise, I could have written the report and provided all the same details.

I'm not advocating to not do a survey, but do ask what will the surveyor find that I haven't already found. Based upon what you detailed, I would ask to have a demonstration of the engine running (it can be done without launching the boat but launching it just for this part of the sea trial would be better), and if the engine fires up and runs smooth your probably have a nice boat to start from.

Fair winds,

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

In addition to the above (with which I agree), what you described is to be expected on any reasonably maintained level 35 year old boat. No surprises to indicate any warning signs.

If you can’t get a good surveyor, I’d do the following:

Sound the rudder and inspect the rudder post especially for lateral movement which would indicate bearing problems.

As above, inspect and check for movement in the shaft and strut

Make sure the deck hasn’t sunk around the mast

Run engine

Inspect chain plates

 

[Davidasailor26]

I agree with the above that at a minimum you should check the rudder and prop shaft, and hear the engine run. One thing to consider though is that you will probably need a survey to get insurance. So if your biggest problem getting the survey is finding an available / responsive surveyor you're still going to have to do that. I'd also rather have that survey done pre-purchase so that whatever issues he finds that need fixing can play into the negotiations, rather than you being completely on the hook.

The O'Day 28 doesn't have traditional bulkhead mounted chainplates (upper shrouds are carried via tie rods to the hull pan), so that's one less thing to worry about. The forward lower shrouds do attach to aluminum plates glassed into the deck, so do check around those to ensure there's no cracking or water intrusion. Also double check under/around the Genoa tracks and all other deck penetrations - O'Day used balsa core throughout the deck and didn't really do anything special to prevent water from spreading anyplace there was a screw or bolt hole.

 

[dfp51]

Thanks to everyone for the help. I finally did get in touch with a reputable surveyor, and we are setting up a time to get it done now. So it should all work out. I doubt there will be any surprises, but in a very real sense I am paying for piece of mind and I am old enough to be ok with that.

I was just surprised it was so hard to find someone given the amount of pleasure boating that goes on around here.

 

[justsomeguy]

Peace of mind is a good thing.

 

[dfp51]

'Tis

 

[DArcy]

Welcome to the board @dfp51
I just went through this. Some people don't bother with surveys on older boats, especially if there is no financing involved but, as noted above, peace of mind goes a long way. My insurance company requires a survey for full value coverage but does allow a reduced coverage with just current pictures.
I'm in the process of buying an Islander Freeport 36 and just had the survey done after being on the boat twice and going for a sea trial. There was only one minor issue the surveyor found that I didn't but the peace of mind is worth it to me.
What I found when looking for a surveyor was they were hard to book. They all got back to me quickly but a few just weren't available.

 

[JRT]

I had a similar problem when looking at sailboats this year. I bought my C310 with no survey because I paid out right for it and my insurance didn't need a survey. This site was really a gold mine of info and helped me feel very comfortable with the boat I bought and I knew the issues it had going in. I also had the previous survey from 2014 by the owner I bought it from and given the limited increase in hours she was used in the past 5 years it was easy to see what needed attention. Right now I think I might need to rebuild or replace the head but it did work fine until about 2 weeks ago.

Marine Survey 101, pre-survey inspection

www.pcmarinesurveys.com

 

[dfp51]

Now, the rest of the story. I did finally find a surveyor who agreed to fit in a survey this weekend because he needed to work a partial day finishing a larger boat at the same marina. The plan was to do the survey over two partial days, then launch the boat and do a sea trial this weekend. The survey started well, hull in good shape and the three soft spots I had found did not bother the surveyor at all. But, he found significant rot/deflection around the shrouds that was not apparent to me, but was detectable when he showed me how to look. Basically, the surveyor theorized that the mast had not been loosened sufficiently during storage over the last several years, and as the core got wet/dried out there was perceptible raising of the decking around the shrouds to the point where he felt the boat would be uninsurable.unsafe as is. Bottom line, approximately 7-10k to repair according to a local yard I called with the current owner. So we dodged a major bullet.

Glad we decided on the piece of mind, lol.

 

[Davidasailor26]

Now, the rest of the story. I did finally find a surveyor who agreed to fit in a survey this weekend because he needed to work a partial day finishing a larger boat at the same marina. The plan was to do the survey over two partial days, then launch the boat and do a sea trial this weekend. The survey started well, hull in good shape and the three soft spots I had found did not bother the surveyor at all. But, he found significant rot/deflection around the shrouds that was not apparent to me, but was detectable when he showed me how to look. Basically, the surveyor theorized that the mast had not been loosened sufficiently during storage over the last several years, and as the core got wet/dried out there was perceptible raising of the decking around the shrouds to the point where he felt the boat would be uninsurable.unsafe as is. Bottom line, approximately 7-10k to repair according to a local yard I called with the current owner. So we dodged a major bullet.

Glad we decided on the piece of mind, lol.

Good thing you had it looked at. Good luck in your continued search.

Which shrouds were pulling up? The upper and aft lower shrouds are carried to the hull pan, so the deck should only lift there if the tie rods are left too loose, or if the hull begins to oil-can (which is a separate problem unto itself). The front lowers on the 28 can certainly pull up since they're only attached to the deck. The good news about those is they don't do all that much other than prevent mast pump, but still rot around them is not a situation you want to walk into.

 

[DArcy]

@dfp51 I'm glad you dodged that bullet, you saved money in the long run.
An update on the survey I just had conducted. The surveyor found an issue and corroborated an Issue I identified during the sea trial. Because of this I was able to reduce the purchase price by more than the cost of the surveyor. The issues are known to me and it saved me money. I'd say it's worth paying a professional surveyor.

 

[glaufman]

I would love some details on"once he showed me how to look"

 

[dfp51]

Basically, it was not to trust any one thing. He said that the hammer test is a good starting place, and that a moisture meter is very useful if you know what it is reading. He starts with those, and then if there is a questionable area he uses his hands to check for deflection/pulling up of the deck. It was mostly that and also to not reject every boat just because there was moisture in the deck. He echoed what I have read here, that there are going to be soft spots on any boat that is 20+ years old. The key is where the soft spots are. A single stanchion, or soft spots near the prow (which he says are very common) probably not a huge issue. Large soft spots around the shroud attachments, probably a bigger problem.

 

[Whatfiero1]

I once bought a boat that was soft all around front hatch. Pulled hatch frame carved out wet vac all core. Cut shoved aluminum into gap sprayed closed cell foam into and finished with glass around and reinstall hatch and deck was stronger than factory

 

[glaufman]

Basically, it was not to trust any one thing. He said that the hammer test is a good starting place, and that a moisture meter is very useful if you know what it is reading. He starts with those, and then if there is a questionable area he uses his hands to check for deflection/pulling up of the deck. It was mostly that and also to not reject every boat just because there was moisture in the deck. He echoed what I have read here, that there are going to be soft spots on any boat that is 20+ years old. The key is where the soft spots are. A single stanchion, or soft spots near the prow (which he says are very common) probably not a huge issue. Large soft spots around the shroud attachments, probably a bigger problem.

That's all good stuff.

 

[dfp51]

I guess I shouldn't have used to old Paul Harvey line earlier, because it turns out that after talking with a couple yards including having a guy come out and examine the boat to give us a bit more precise of an estimate, and some significant reduction in the asking price, we went ahead and bought the boat this weekend. The plan is to have the necessary deck work done this winter. We are also going to have the cutlass bearing replaced/a new stainless shaft installed at the same time.

Basically we decided that the devil you know is better than the devil you don't. Since we ended up buying the boat for significantly less than we planned originally, we should end up with a total investment (cost of purchase + repairs) within a grand or so of where we thought we would be before the survey. So on the up side, we should have a very nice, sound boat at a good price. Of course, there is a risk that the repair yards have wildly under estimated the damage to the deck, and we could sink significant dollars into this. At the end of the day we thought it was a risk worth taking, because we absolutely loved the boat otherwise.

 

[JRT]

Congrats and post up some pics of your new old boat

 

[jssailem]

Congrats @dfp51 on being bitten by love.

the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.

I think this is so true. The problem is it gets you into doing projects. Don't let the projects stop you from sailing.
Enjoy your new to you boat.

Well maybe not worthless, but it is a whole lot better with a picture or two.

 

[dfp51]

Be a little while yet before she is wet, but here you go