Peggy I know you covered this over and over but please indulge me. Got a new (to me) boat and having trouble pumping out holding tank with the macerator. Pump apppears to be working but only pumping air? it is the diaphram type pump,tank is full except top two inches where the drain hose pumps out?(pumps out from top of tank?) I did not have time to trouble shot system but looking for some clues to look for. In addition to a cloged vent,making sure the thur hull is opened,what am I forgetting? Pump appear to be working as it sounds like it is pumping air and tank is not overflowing just appears to have reached a heigth (appx 2 inches from the top)and maintaing that level if that is possible. I have not tried the dock pump out yet and not sure if that will work or not but will try next weekend. Would like for both systems to work. Any thoughts until you just ordered book arrives ? thanks
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Pete, you probably just didn't mention
the valve that directs the tank output either to the macerator or the deck pump-out. That will be somewhere between the tank fitting and the macerator. It has to be set properly for the tank contents to flow where you want them. Inside the tank there should be a piece of pipe that extends down almost to the bottom of the tank. If your macerator has pumped waste from the tank but won't drain it more than 2 inches from the top, that interior pipe might have fallen off its fitting or have a hole in it causing it to suck air when not covered. You'll want to wait for Peggy's expert advice, but I'd advise you to be VERY careful of using the pump-out station until you are VERY sure that the vent is functioning properly. The last thread regarding this issue turned out to be a clogged intake pipe inside the tank. Messy, but fixable
You're doing the right thing by not forcing anything and looking to Peggy for guidance. All will come out in the end. Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
the valve that directs the tank output either to the macerator or the deck pump-out. That will be somewhere between the tank fitting and the macerator. It has to be set properly for the tank contents to flow where you want them. Inside the tank there should be a piece of pipe that extends down almost to the bottom of the tank. If your macerator has pumped waste from the tank but won't drain it more than 2 inches from the top, that interior pipe might have fallen off its fitting or have a hole in it causing it to suck air when not covered. You'll want to wait for Peggy's expert advice, but I'd advise you to be VERY careful of using the pump-out station until you are VERY sure that the vent is functioning properly. The last thread regarding this issue turned out to be a clogged intake pipe inside the tank. Messy, but fixable
You're doing the right thing by not forcing anything and looking to Peggy for guidance. All will come out in the end. Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
I think Bob has nailed the problem....
If the discharge fitting is on the top of the tank, there has to be a pipe inside the tank that goes to the bottom in order to pull anything out of the tank. It sounds like it's either missing or has fallen off...or if it's metal, has prob'ly been eaten through by urine...the macerator is just pulling air through the vent. If that's the case, the same thing will happen if you try to pump out. Remove the hose from the fitting...it'll come off a lot easier (hopefully the PO didn't do something stupid, like use 5200 to seal it on) if you warm it with a blow dryer first. Then remove the fitting. If there's no pipe attached to it that goes to the bottom of the tank, you'll have to replace it. That's not a hard job. Just measure the tank depth, then take the fitting to a hardware store and buy a piece of PVC pipe that fits inside the threaded end of the fitting tightly and is 2" less than the tank depth. Have 'em cut the other end at about a 30 degree angle. Glue into the fitting, put everything back...you should be able to pump out. But--also as Bob said--make sure the vent is clear first. I wouldn't worry about trying to remove any pipe that has fallen off...it's not hurting anything lying on the bottom of the tank. Btw, unless you're in open sea at least 3 miles from the other side of LI and any other land--which is a pretty good trip from Noank--using the macerator to dump the tank is illegal.
If the discharge fitting is on the top of the tank, there has to be a pipe inside the tank that goes to the bottom in order to pull anything out of the tank. It sounds like it's either missing or has fallen off...or if it's metal, has prob'ly been eaten through by urine...the macerator is just pulling air through the vent. If that's the case, the same thing will happen if you try to pump out. Remove the hose from the fitting...it'll come off a lot easier (hopefully the PO didn't do something stupid, like use 5200 to seal it on) if you warm it with a blow dryer first. Then remove the fitting. If there's no pipe attached to it that goes to the bottom of the tank, you'll have to replace it. That's not a hard job. Just measure the tank depth, then take the fitting to a hardware store and buy a piece of PVC pipe that fits inside the threaded end of the fitting tightly and is 2" less than the tank depth. Have 'em cut the other end at about a 30 degree angle. Glue into the fitting, put everything back...you should be able to pump out. But--also as Bob said--make sure the vent is clear first. I wouldn't worry about trying to remove any pipe that has fallen off...it's not hurting anything lying on the bottom of the tank. Btw, unless you're in open sea at least 3 miles from the other side of LI and any other land--which is a pretty good trip from Noank--using the macerator to dump the tank is illegal.
Make sure you install deck cap
mine won't pump unless the deck cap is tightly installed. It must be sealed or the pump will just suck air. At least that is the way it is on mine. I tried to rinse out the tank once and found it would not pump out until I put the cap on tightly. Nobody seems to think of this possibility and I found it out the hard way and replaced a working pump.
mine won't pump unless the deck cap is tightly installed. It must be sealed or the pump will just suck air. At least that is the way it is on mine. I tried to rinse out the tank once and found it would not pump out until I put the cap on tightly. Nobody seems to think of this possibility and I found it out the hard way and replaced a working pump.
Another advantage to a y-valve instead of a tee
If there's only a tee or wye in the discharge line, the macerator will pull air from an open deck fitting. But when a y-valve is turned toward the macerator, it eliminates that problem. It also shuts off the flow from the tank so the macerator can be serviced at sea if necessary.
If there's only a tee or wye in the discharge line, the macerator will pull air from an open deck fitting. But when a y-valve is turned toward the macerator, it eliminates that problem. It also shuts off the flow from the tank so the macerator can be serviced at sea if necessary.
Mine has the wye fitting
and I have changed pump at sea. It was a sh...y job but the fitting did not seem to matter. I guess it might have been worse if there were higher waves but then again, I would not have been hanging out on the transom with the hatch open if they were big waves.
and I have changed pump at sea. It was a sh...y job but the fitting did not seem to matter. I guess it might have been worse if there were higher waves but then again, I would not have been hanging out on the transom with the hatch open if they were big waves.
thanks for you help and advise
thanks to all who answered. Peggy just so everone has piece of mind I was over 10 miles offshore when I tried to use the macerator and discovered the problem. I will get it pumped out localy/legaly before doing much more and do any testing with water only.Thanks for your help and I looking forward to getting your book,Althought now I thinking I wish I had purchased before I had questions ! !
thanks to all who answered. Peggy just so everone has piece of mind I was over 10 miles offshore when I tried to use the macerator and discovered the problem. I will get it pumped out localy/legaly before doing much more and do any testing with water only.Thanks for your help and I looking forward to getting your book,Althought now I thinking I wish I had purchased before I had questions ! !
Just for clarification (not only you but others)..and Jentine...
When you say "10 miles offshore," do you mean 10 miles off the nearest shore in the Sound....or 10 miles from the nearest point of land anywhere on the whole US coastline? I'm asking 'cuz there's a lot of confusion among boat owners, especially new ones, about where the "3 mile limit" actually is. It's NOT just a minimum 3 miles from land in a sound, bay, river or lake or other coastal waters...ya gotta be out in open ocean at least 3 miles from the nearest point on the whole US coastline to dump a tank or flush a toilet directly overboard legally. Only the discharge of TREATED waste--which means waste that's been processed by a CG Certified Type I or Type II MSD (treatment device that's separate from the toilet..i.e. a Lectra/San)--can legally be discharged inside that "3 mile limit"...and it cannot be discharged in waters that have been specifically designated "no discharge." There's nothing that can be added to a holding tank to "treat" it to legal standards. Jentine...if the pickup tube inside his tank has fallen out, the tank can't be pumped out either...the pumpout would just do the same thing the macerator is doing--suck air via the tank vent. So he no choice but to do his trouble-shooting before he tries to empty the tank.
When you say "10 miles offshore," do you mean 10 miles off the nearest shore in the Sound....or 10 miles from the nearest point of land anywhere on the whole US coastline? I'm asking 'cuz there's a lot of confusion among boat owners, especially new ones, about where the "3 mile limit" actually is. It's NOT just a minimum 3 miles from land in a sound, bay, river or lake or other coastal waters...ya gotta be out in open ocean at least 3 miles from the nearest point on the whole US coastline to dump a tank or flush a toilet directly overboard legally. Only the discharge of TREATED waste--which means waste that's been processed by a CG Certified Type I or Type II MSD (treatment device that's separate from the toilet..i.e. a Lectra/San)--can legally be discharged inside that "3 mile limit"...and it cannot be discharged in waters that have been specifically designated "no discharge." There's nothing that can be added to a holding tank to "treat" it to legal standards. Jentine...if the pickup tube inside his tank has fallen out, the tank can't be pumped out either...the pumpout would just do the same thing the macerator is doing--suck air via the tank vent. So he no choice but to do his trouble-shooting before he tries to empty the tank.
The law is one thing
reality is another. Use common sense. Make every effort to pump out at the dock and plan ahead. Don't dump it in a harbor, marina, close to fish pens, oyster farms, whales (of course), land or anywhere you will get caught. I figure it is ok if I cannot make out a person on shore and it is over 100 feet deep. When you are 5 hours to a pumpout and your tank is full, what are you going to do? Never admit it to anyone either. Seattle pumps their stuff a few hundred yards from land but of course they pretend to treat it. Several times each year, they spill more "untreated" waste than all of the boats in the US produce in a year. The so called treatment systems are arguably worse for the environment than untreated waste is but if it makes you feel better... Desolation Sound is a good example. We spend a couple of weeks there and it is a day or two to anywhere there are places to pump out at a shore station. Besides that, it is Canada...
reality is another. Use common sense. Make every effort to pump out at the dock and plan ahead. Don't dump it in a harbor, marina, close to fish pens, oyster farms, whales (of course), land or anywhere you will get caught. I figure it is ok if I cannot make out a person on shore and it is over 100 feet deep. When you are 5 hours to a pumpout and your tank is full, what are you going to do? Never admit it to anyone either. Seattle pumps their stuff a few hundred yards from land but of course they pretend to treat it. Several times each year, they spill more "untreated" waste than all of the boats in the US produce in a year. The so called treatment systems are arguably worse for the environment than untreated waste is but if it makes you feel better... Desolation Sound is a good example. We spend a couple of weeks there and it is a day or two to anywhere there are places to pump out at a shore station. Besides that, it is Canada...
Patrick, you just made the best case FOR treatment
I've seen from any boat owner...and though you're the first one I've seen actually admit it in open forum, typical of what most owners actually do vs. what they claim to do. Anyone who argues that treatment is worse for the environment is arguing from 100% emotion without any facts to back it up...'cuz the negative impact from just ONE illegally dumped tank is greater than that from 1000 boats, all using Lectra/Sans sitting together in the same place for 24 hours. Even if no one ever did dump a tank illegally, onboard treatment devices treat to a higher standard than most sewage treatment plants...but then, as you noted, there are the frequent sewage treatment plant spills, which make it hard to argue that sending onboard waste to the sewage plant is better for the environment than onboard treatment. But you forgot to mention pumpouts with leaking pipes that just pump the waste out of the boat and directly into the water.
I've seen from any boat owner...and though you're the first one I've seen actually admit it in open forum, typical of what most owners actually do vs. what they claim to do. Anyone who argues that treatment is worse for the environment is arguing from 100% emotion without any facts to back it up...'cuz the negative impact from just ONE illegally dumped tank is greater than that from 1000 boats, all using Lectra/Sans sitting together in the same place for 24 hours. Even if no one ever did dump a tank illegally, onboard treatment devices treat to a higher standard than most sewage treatment plants...but then, as you noted, there are the frequent sewage treatment plant spills, which make it hard to argue that sending onboard waste to the sewage plant is better for the environment than onboard treatment. But you forgot to mention pumpouts with leaking pipes that just pump the waste out of the boat and directly into the water.
Peggy, it just is not that important
in the larger scheme of things whether you treat and make compounds which are at least arguably carcenogenic or just dump the "natural" material. "Natural" has different problems and is more noticeable. That is the only convincing argument for treatment that I can think of. Truth is that there is a problem either way where boats are concentrated and there is insufficient exchange of water. It is also true that there is no where near the volume of waste from boats compared to that from the "homeless" people in any large city next to a marina such as Seattle. They openly pee and crap in the streets, parks and alleys. It is washed directly into the waterways where the boats are kept. The cities emotional response here was to build a homeless peoples toilet in Seattle for about a million dollars and they just won't use it if they have to walk across the street. It is really beautiful though. The pinheads in Seattle close beaches to swimming every summer because of goose poop. What do you suggest for that - diapers? What do you think boaters do in isolated places where it is just too far to go to a pumpout? There really are times when you cannot go three miles offshore and you have to do something. I say just be sensible about it. There are real problems with real toxic waste - this just is not one of them scientifically or logically speaking. It is an emotional issue and a regulatory tool used by bureaucrats and politicians to justify regulations, taxes, fines, and the enforcement personnel, and to foment envy and resentment against those who seem to be more fortunate IE: boaters. It is also an issue which can be and is demagogued to create a market for so called treatment systems. I aint buying because it is just not that important. I pump out at the dock whenever it is available and that works for me most of the time like I said before.
in the larger scheme of things whether you treat and make compounds which are at least arguably carcenogenic or just dump the "natural" material. "Natural" has different problems and is more noticeable. That is the only convincing argument for treatment that I can think of. Truth is that there is a problem either way where boats are concentrated and there is insufficient exchange of water. It is also true that there is no where near the volume of waste from boats compared to that from the "homeless" people in any large city next to a marina such as Seattle. They openly pee and crap in the streets, parks and alleys. It is washed directly into the waterways where the boats are kept. The cities emotional response here was to build a homeless peoples toilet in Seattle for about a million dollars and they just won't use it if they have to walk across the street. It is really beautiful though. The pinheads in Seattle close beaches to swimming every summer because of goose poop. What do you suggest for that - diapers? What do you think boaters do in isolated places where it is just too far to go to a pumpout? There really are times when you cannot go three miles offshore and you have to do something. I say just be sensible about it. There are real problems with real toxic waste - this just is not one of them scientifically or logically speaking. It is an emotional issue and a regulatory tool used by bureaucrats and politicians to justify regulations, taxes, fines, and the enforcement personnel, and to foment envy and resentment against those who seem to be more fortunate IE: boaters. It is also an issue which can be and is demagogued to create a market for so called treatment systems. I aint buying because it is just not that important. I pump out at the dock whenever it is available and that works for me most of the time like I said before.
Only one thing you've said I disagree with
Treatment devices do not introduce carcinogens(arguably or otherwise) into the environment...most use chlorine (which evaporates, leaving no lasting impact), the Lectra/San converts salt water to chlorine temporarily by charging the ions in salt water with electrical current. When the stimulus (current) is removed, the solution reverts to salt water--but salt water that now has a bacteria count of <10/100 ml. Most holding tanks, otoh, are loaded with toxic carcenogenic chemicals--formaldehyde, gluteraldehyde, quaternary ammonium compounds and who knows what in the "home brews" that some boat owners dream up. The vast majority of boat owners use Thetford, SeaLand, or other RV chemical sold at Walmart etc...you might want to visit the Thetford and SeaLand sites and read the MSDS for their tank products. So, except for the relatively small percentage of owners who use bacteria, enzyme or other all natural tank products--or only aerate their tanks without using anything in the tank (which works, btw), it's NOT a choice of a tankful of an all "natural" but aesthetically unappealing waste vs "toxic" treated waste...it's just the opposite: a choice between a HIGHLY toxic tankful and NON-toxic treated waste. As for goose poop...the person who comes up with the solution to THAT problem should win a Nobel prize! 'Cuz not only do they foul the water, but they turn the shore into a minefield that runs INTO the water every time it rains...which it does a lot in your neck of the woods. And as for the homeless who pee and poop in the streets, what makes that any different from the people on ski boats, runabouts and other open boats who just dive in when they have to go? Or the people use the "lee rail?" Both of which are legal! So Pat, you do make an excellent case for flushing toilets directly overboard instead of into a tank...one of the best against "no discharge" I've ever seen. And they they do reflect the thinking--and practice--of most boat owners. In fact, I'd estimate that there are at least as many boats on INLAND waters, hundreds of miles from any coast, who have--and use--macerator pumps to dump tanks than boats that don't. But your arguments against treatment and the lack of any real negative impact from dumping a tank just don't hold water. If you're faced with two illegal choices AND have any real concern for the environment, instead of dumping the tank, turn the y-valve between the toilet and the tank and flush the toilet directly overboard...send the tank contents to the sewage treatment plant so THEY can dump it into the water in the next spill.
Treatment devices do not introduce carcinogens(arguably or otherwise) into the environment...most use chlorine (which evaporates, leaving no lasting impact), the Lectra/San converts salt water to chlorine temporarily by charging the ions in salt water with electrical current. When the stimulus (current) is removed, the solution reverts to salt water--but salt water that now has a bacteria count of <10/100 ml. Most holding tanks, otoh, are loaded with toxic carcenogenic chemicals--formaldehyde, gluteraldehyde, quaternary ammonium compounds and who knows what in the "home brews" that some boat owners dream up. The vast majority of boat owners use Thetford, SeaLand, or other RV chemical sold at Walmart etc...you might want to visit the Thetford and SeaLand sites and read the MSDS for their tank products. So, except for the relatively small percentage of owners who use bacteria, enzyme or other all natural tank products--or only aerate their tanks without using anything in the tank (which works, btw), it's NOT a choice of a tankful of an all "natural" but aesthetically unappealing waste vs "toxic" treated waste...it's just the opposite: a choice between a HIGHLY toxic tankful and NON-toxic treated waste. As for goose poop...the person who comes up with the solution to THAT problem should win a Nobel prize! 'Cuz not only do they foul the water, but they turn the shore into a minefield that runs INTO the water every time it rains...which it does a lot in your neck of the woods. And as for the homeless who pee and poop in the streets, what makes that any different from the people on ski boats, runabouts and other open boats who just dive in when they have to go? Or the people use the "lee rail?" Both of which are legal! So Pat, you do make an excellent case for flushing toilets directly overboard instead of into a tank...one of the best against "no discharge" I've ever seen. And they they do reflect the thinking--and practice--of most boat owners. In fact, I'd estimate that there are at least as many boats on INLAND waters, hundreds of miles from any coast, who have--and use--macerator pumps to dump tanks than boats that don't. But your arguments against treatment and the lack of any real negative impact from dumping a tank just don't hold water. If you're faced with two illegal choices AND have any real concern for the environment, instead of dumping the tank, turn the y-valve between the toilet and the tank and flush the toilet directly overboard...send the tank contents to the sewage treatment plant so THEY can dump it into the water in the next spill.
Treated or not it is not really very "toxic"
Toxicity is a really loaded word. You could probably eat either one. I am not suggesting it but it is true. I do not care to test the theory. Thanks anyway Putting the stuff into a tank is also a treatment according to some regs. The only people who really make a direct discharge are the homeless. I do not care. The regs also require no direct discharge so what difference does it make? Chlorine does not just evaporate into the atmosphere. It reacts with rapidly with something in solution and some hand wringers think it makes ostensibly carcinogenic compounds. It probably does but it is a small amount and I do not think that it makes any real environmental difference except it does not smell so much. Other chemical additives are also treatments of various kinds which make the storage or discharge more acceptible. Their environmental effects are likewise in my opinion of little real actual impact. MSDS sheets have very little relevance to the real world applications of these things and besides that it does not matter and I do not care. Seattle has been said to have more boats than any other US city. I do not know if that is true but I know a lot of boaters and not one pumps their waste into the water around the city. Most pump it to shore and some hire a service to do it for them. Most liveaboards use the facilities on the shore for toilets and showers too. Even though it may not be convenient, it is less hassle than pumping out the boat or dealing with the boat waste issues. I am not suggesting direct discharge or treated discharge or anything other than obey the laws. Just use some common sense if you cannot. There are times you cannot if you take the boat some of the places around this part of the world. I think we have beaten this to death for at least the umpteenth time. How about a new topic? Cooking anyone?
Toxicity is a really loaded word. You could probably eat either one. I am not suggesting it but it is true. I do not care to test the theory. Thanks anyway
Putting the stuff into a tank is also a treatment according to some regs. The only people who really make a direct discharge are the homeless. I do not care. The regs also require no direct discharge so what difference does it make? Chlorine does not just evaporate into the atmosphere. It reacts with rapidly with something in solution and some hand wringers think it makes ostensibly carcinogenic compounds. It probably does but it is a small amount and I do not think that it makes any real environmental difference except it does not smell so much. Other chemical additives are also treatments of various kinds which make the storage or discharge more acceptible. Their environmental effects are likewise in my opinion of little real actual impact. MSDS sheets have very little relevance to the real world applications of these things and besides that it does not matter and I do not care. Seattle has been said to have more boats than any other US city. I do not know if that is true but I know a lot of boaters and not one pumps their waste into the water around the city. Most pump it to shore and some hire a service to do it for them. Most liveaboards use the facilities on the shore for toilets and showers too. Even though it may not be convenient, it is less hassle than pumping out the boat or dealing with the boat waste issues. I am not suggesting direct discharge or treated discharge or anything other than obey the laws. Just use some common sense if you cannot. There are times you cannot if you take the boat some of the places around this part of the world. I think we have beaten this to death for at least the umpteenth time. How about a new topic? Cooking anyone?Peggy /offshore
Peggy I was over 10 miles off shore when I tried to pump out (off the coast of Mass coming from Maine) so it would have been 100% legal to pump out in that area. I do know the long island sound 3 miles limit vs three miles offshore. Thanks again for you help and advise. Jentine I have used the pump out boat in the past and will use it again in the future however I'm not sure it is working this time of year. I have tried two weekends in a row to contact them and have not gotten a response I know several others waiting for them so they can get a last pump out before winterizing. worse case serinero there is a pump out at our marina I can use. I think the pump out boat is one of the best service provided in our area.
Peggy I was over 10 miles off shore when I tried to pump out (off the coast of Mass coming from Maine) so it would have been 100% legal to pump out in that area. I do know the long island sound 3 miles limit vs three miles offshore. Thanks again for you help and advise. Jentine I have used the pump out boat in the past and will use it again in the future however I'm not sure it is working this time of year. I have tried two weekends in a row to contact them and have not gotten a response I know several others waiting for them so they can get a last pump out before winterizing. worse case serinero there is a pump out at our marina I can use. I think the pump out boat is one of the best service provided in our area.
Check pump out hose
On our 1997 P42, the pump out hose became disconnected [ two hose clamps insufficiently tight from factory] from the pump out deck plate fitting. This was in 1999. The macerator could not establish pull and would not pump out through the hull. It was quite a job, but we got it reattached and everything works fine.
On our 1997 P42, the pump out hose became disconnected [ two hose clamps insufficiently tight from factory] from the pump out deck plate fitting. This was in 1999. The macerator could not establish pull and would not pump out through the hull. It was quite a job, but we got it reattached and everything works fine.
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