Protesting a Race

[Lookout]

Hi Everyone.

I have an interesting situation. The race director is protesting a race that he participated almost three weeks ago. He retired from the race because his sail slug fell out in +25 knot winds. The race continued with three boats and we found ourselves in third place. He is asking for Redress because our club rules are to not race in above 25 knots. The wind built throughout the race so he does have a point. The problem is that he launched his protest two week after the race ended. I believe that the International Rules of Racing require protests to be done in 2 hours. Any thoughts as I am frustrated with his actions. :naughty:

 

[Kermit]

Yet another reason I don't race. Give him a Snicker Bar...

 

[Jackdaw]

Check your SIs. Unless that say otherwise the limit is two hours. Thats what the RRS say. If nothing in the SI's say otherwise, the protest is not heard.

If it IS heard:

The race was run and finished, so he is protesting (as a boat) the RC (himself) for 62.1(a) redress? Interesting.

If a hearing is formed, look at your SIs, and the language of when a race is not to be started, or abandoned if started. Language typically allows some discretion of the PRO and RC. Because your race was run, the burden is on him to show that the race SHOULD have 100% for sure been abandoned. The language from our SIs is below.

If it is awarded, it should not effect your placing. The points you got you got.

His score: one of the three

(a) points equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05 to be rounded upward), of her points in all the races in the series except the race in question;

(b) points equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05 to be rounded upward), of her points in all the races before the race in question; or

(c) points based on the position of the boat in the race at the time of the incident that justified redress



From WYC SIs

12. CANCELLATION. Racing will be cancelled at the discretion of the RC for low/no wind, for wind gusts in excess of 26 knots, and/or as permitted by RRS 32.1.

 

[Lookout]

Thanks
I understand. I will look at the language, understand that he wanted the race Abandoned and done again. But what you said may work as he could be given 4th place. From what you said he must prove that the conditions where such that the race was finished in error and should have been abandoned.
Are you from the Whitby Yacht Club in Ontario?

 

[Jackdaw]

Thanks
I understand. I will look at the language, understand that he wanted the race Abandoned and done again. But what you said may work as he could be given 4th place. From what you said he must prove that the conditions where such that the race was finished in error and should have been abandoned.
Are you from the Whitby Yacht Club in Ontario?

A couple of things, but check always everything against your SIs.

Normally is hard to abandon and restart a race if boats finish BEFORE the abandonment. Clearly that happened. RRS 31.2

If he wants redress in that race, AND is awarded that: Typically when redress scoring a boat that retired, the RC should not effect the score of any boat that finished (but they can award duplicate points). Lets say the PC says he should finish 2nd. He gets 2 points, the boat that originally finished keeps its 2 points, and you keep your 3 points, assuming low-point scoring. (Judges Manual 7.5 Scoring Redress - protection of innocent boats)

Regarding your point about what he must prove, that's true, but that can only happen IF he is allowed to protest due to the time lapse. Its like a statue of limitations. He can be right but still miss out. RRS 62.2

Nope, WYC is the Wayzata yacht Club in Minneapolis MN.
http://wyc.org/

 

[Lookout]

I completely understand, but unfortunately our club is not well versed in the race rules. I have sent an e mail, using your advise, spelling out the situation, with references to the IRR. But was told on Sunday that they are accepting his request for redress and his request is for us to DNF. Also so much time has passed, since the incident we are watching all the stories changing. I expect we will be skewed in the end. There is nothing in our RI to extend redress time or to require a boat to cross the finish line. It doesn't pay to be winning all the races.

 

[Jackdaw]

That sounds pretty messed up. How did your 3rd place go to DNF? Do you mean abandoned?

If NO, then your finishing status cannot be changed. It takes a protest against YOU to do that. Only if you loose can you be DSQ'ed. Not DNFed. (Again check your SIs)

 

[CalebD]

That is an incredible story of poor sportsmanship.

His protest should not be heard as it comes well after the 2 hour window.

At our club we have had races with winds gusting well higher than 25. I find it hard to believe that someone who dropped out of a race (for whatever reason) would protest to have others scores erased. Unbelievable!

 

[356_Steve]

If the protest is heard and redress is awarded, and ANY of the other boats are affected by the results in either that race or in the series, then they are also allowed to protest for redress (well after the 2 hour limit). Thier protest would include the fact that the first protest was accepted as a valid protest outside of the 2 hour limit. If thier protest is not allowed, then it can be appealled to the regional US Sailing organization, for a hearing. I connot imagine that any judge would not throw out the first protest as invalid, taking everything back to what it was originally.

BTW, any protest submitted must be heard. The first thing in the hearing is to determine it the protest is valid. Outside the two hour limit? Invalid protest...hearing over.

 

[Jackdaw]

If the protest is heard and redress is awarded, and ANY of the other boats are affected by the results in either that race or in the series, then they are also allowed to protest for redress (well after the 2 hour limit). Thier protest would include the fact that the first protest was accepted as a valid protest outside of the 2 hour limit. If thier protest is not allowed, then it can be appealled to the regional US Sailing organization, for a hearing. I connot imagine that any judge would not throw out the first protest as invalid, taking everything back to what it was originally.

BTW, any protest submitted must be heard. The first thing in the hearing is to determine it the protest is valid. Outside the two hour limit? Invalid protest...hearing over.

You're right in general, IF the club in question is affiliated with the national sailing organization (Canada I think in this case). I'm assuming not, due to (sadly) how this is being handled.

I'd be interested in seeing the SIs.

 

[Lookout]

Four and a half weeks after the race the protest has not been herd.

I think the boys are having trouble with a Woman Skipper beating them on the racecourse.

Last year they argued my PERF rating so we where re measured. The result was our rating went up by three points. I guess they should not have tried to mess with my rating.:dance:

 

[Lookout]

The club is a member of the Ontario Sailing Association. Are you suggesting that I could ask for the matter to be resolved by a higher power?

 

[Jackdaw]

The club is a member of the Ontario Sailing Association. Are you suggesting that I could ask for the matter to be resolved by a higher power?

Yes.

You will probably have to protest their latest decision. If it is not allowed or dismissed, take this route via Sailing Canada.

http://www.sailing.ca/racing/rules_and_regatta_management/appeals/

Ps can you point us to your SIs?

 

[Claude L.-Auger]

Yes.

You will probably have to protest their latest decision. If it is not allowed or dismissed, take this route via Sailing Canada.

http://www.sailing.ca/racing/rules_and_regatta_management/appeals/

Ps can you point us to your SIs?

Canadian Yachting association is very clear and you should advise you club race committee: "

Rule 4, Decision to Race​

Appeal 44
A boat that decides not to start or not to continue in a race because of an apparently incorrect action by the race committee is not entitled to redress because her own decision, not the action of the race committee, made her finishing position significantly worse"

​

 

[Lookout]

I have misplaced my sailing instructions. I have asked for an electronic copy but the boat protesting me is the Racing Director. We raced tonight, great winds, but he stayed home I think pouting. I heard at the club this evening that the protest will probably go my way. They are smart guys on the PC but they have a big learning curve.

 

[Jackdaw]

I have misplaced my sailing instructions. I have asked for an electronic copy but the boat protesting me is the Racing Director. We raced tonight, great winds, but he stayed home I think pouting. I heard at the club this evening that the protest will probably go my way. They are smart guys on the PC but they have a big learning curve.

That's great to hear. The underlying principal of sailboat racing is FAIRNESS. That only happens when the rules are followed, by everybody. I hope this ends well for you.

 

[Lookout]

For anyone who is still following this protest we have lost
The race was May 25, 2013.

I found out today the nature of the protest, as we were never told that a racer, who had retired from the race protested the committee boat decision to offer us redress in +30 knot winds as the last boat left racing.

The redress was asked, for two weeks after the race, had retired.

So from what I see it I need to find out what rules the club is following and what they are ignoring from the IRR
- time limit
- paperwork
- informing the protestee as soon as possible after the race (we found out two weeks after the race)
- informing us of the protest committee members
- asking for redress to affect our racers boats score
- protesting the committee boat actions
- hiding the protest committee from us (the RD would not tell us who was on the committee so we had to ask around the club for a week to find out who to send our protest response to.

It is even dummer as the club is currently putting together a Code of Conduct that binds the club to follow the IRR.

Frustrating, perhaps we need to slow our boat down and let them win a few races.

Would love your comments.