I'm thinking about buying a used main for my Capri 22. Probably will come from Bacon's, since I'm close to Annapolis. I did a search here, and people recommended them. Plus, I stopped in to see them in person, and got a pretty good vibe from the folks there. Nice, low-pressure environment. I am replacing a main with slugs webbed to the sail. Some of the more likely candidates in their database were a rope luff; I'd be installing the hardware myself after purchase. So here's the question: when I hoist the sail to see if it fits, how will I know it fits if I can't really "attach" it to the mast? I have an adjustable backstay to put some curve in the mast, and I'm likely going to wind up with a main from a J boat, which will have a fairly good curve built in to it as well. Should I try to feed the rope luff into my mast track when test-fitting? Will that even be possible? Even a used sail is a major investment for me, so I'm trying to get this right.
Proper fit for used sail
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New sail
I forgot to ask, (yeah, lots of questions for one post!): Has anybody here ever purchased a new sail from Bacon? They quoted me a price that was much lower than expected, and I'm almost tempted to go that route, instead of used. But, like I said, the budget is tight, so I'm attempting to do the mental gymnastics of making a used sail fit.
I forgot to ask, (yeah, lots of questions for one post!): Has anybody here ever purchased a new sail from Bacon? They quoted me a price that was much lower than expected, and I'm almost tempted to go that route, instead of used. But, like I said, the budget is tight, so I'm attempting to do the mental gymnastics of making a used sail fit.
Main
Thanks for the link. I'm replacing the main. I guess what the question really boils down to is, Are J boat mains designed for a mast that bends more than my Capri mast? I've never sailed aboard a J, and I just don't know if the luff of a J main will have more of a curve to it than my mast is built for. The whole point of the new sail is for me to have something that I can flatten; the old sail is just too worn and stretched. So I don't want to spend $400 for another sail that I won't be able to flatten.
Thanks for the link. I'm replacing the main. I guess what the question really boils down to is, Are J boat mains designed for a mast that bends more than my Capri mast? I've never sailed aboard a J, and I just don't know if the luff of a J main will have more of a curve to it than my mast is built for. The whole point of the new sail is for me to have something that I can flatten; the old sail is just too worn and stretched. So I don't want to spend $400 for another sail that I won't be able to flatten.
Over many years of sailing...
I've purchased a number of used sails from Bacons. I found them to be an excellent value. I found most of their sails underrated, that is, better than their ratings would imply. That said, fit of a mainsail is critical and much harder to achieve than with a headsail. What I like about buying from Bacons (I would NOT recommend using Bacons to sell anything...that is a whole other story)is that you can return a sail for any reason within two weeks of purchase and if its in the same condition you bought it in. I think if you buy a used main and run it up to the mast head and out to the outhaul, you'll know if it fits well enough or not. But don't expect it to fit like as perfectly as a custom made sail. A friend of mine bought a new genoa from Bacons some time ago and is quite happy with it. At that time, Bacons was using Rolly Tasker to make their sails in quantity and so could sell them for a lower price than lofts. I think, however, the love affair between Bacons and Rolly went south when Bacons failed to pay their bills from Rolly (and was sued). I would ask Bacons (Steve not Daisy) who makes their sails as they certainly do not make them. I would also ask for the same guarantee as with a used sail: the right to return it for full refund if it doesn't fit or you just don't like it.
I've purchased a number of used sails from Bacons. I found them to be an excellent value. I found most of their sails underrated, that is, better than their ratings would imply. That said, fit of a mainsail is critical and much harder to achieve than with a headsail. What I like about buying from Bacons (I would NOT recommend using Bacons to sell anything...that is a whole other story)is that you can return a sail for any reason within two weeks of purchase and if its in the same condition you bought it in. I think if you buy a used main and run it up to the mast head and out to the outhaul, you'll know if it fits well enough or not. But don't expect it to fit like as perfectly as a custom made sail. A friend of mine bought a new genoa from Bacons some time ago and is quite happy with it. At that time, Bacons was using Rolly Tasker to make their sails in quantity and so could sell them for a lower price than lofts. I think, however, the love affair between Bacons and Rolly went south when Bacons failed to pay their bills from Rolly (and was sued). I would ask Bacons (Steve not Daisy) who makes their sails as they certainly do not make them. I would also ask for the same guarantee as with a used sail: the right to return it for full refund if it doesn't fit or you just don't like it.
Minney's
Try Minneys Yacht Surplus in Costa Mesa, California, Ernie Minney is a heck of a nice guy. http://www.minneysyachtsurplus.com/ Even though a sail may have a bolt rope, the luff and foot size should determine whether or not it will fit your rig, mast bend regardless. If you want to convert to slides, you'll have to have grommets installed every 18 inches or so.
Try Minneys Yacht Surplus in Costa Mesa, California, Ernie Minney is a heck of a nice guy. http://www.minneysyachtsurplus.com/ Even though a sail may have a bolt rope, the luff and foot size should determine whether or not it will fit your rig, mast bend regardless. If you want to convert to slides, you'll have to have grommets installed every 18 inches or so.
Have you tried us?
Have you given this site a shot? Our sails are designed, cut and sewn in the USA by a loft with over 25 years experience and a sterling reputation for quality and value. They use only the highest grade dacron available. You might be surprised, give us a try. Dave Groshong Customer Service SailboatOwners.com 877-932-7245 ext.116, Mon-Fri, 9-5 Pacific.
Have you given this site a shot? Our sails are designed, cut and sewn in the USA by a loft with over 25 years experience and a sterling reputation for quality and value. They use only the highest grade dacron available. You might be surprised, give us a try. Dave Groshong Customer Service SailboatOwners.com 877-932-7245 ext.116, Mon-Fri, 9-5 Pacific.
Warren -
What's Rolly Tasker? Or is that somebody's name? I didn't think to ask who makes sails for them. I'd be a little nervous to buy a new sail from them; for all the good things I've heard about buying used from them I haven't heard much about new. Beyond that, the price was so much lower than I expected that I'm thinking, "what's the catch?" That said, even a lower-quality new sail would probably be better than the main I'm hoisting now. I don't know its history, but it may be as old as the boat, from 1986.
What's Rolly Tasker? Or is that somebody's name? I didn't think to ask who makes sails for them. I'd be a little nervous to buy a new sail from them; for all the good things I've heard about buying used from them I haven't heard much about new. Beyond that, the price was so much lower than I expected that I'm thinking, "what's the catch?" That said, even a lower-quality new sail would probably be better than the main I'm hoisting now. I don't know its history, but it may be as old as the boat, from 1986.
Yes to both questions.....
A bolt-roped sail without slugs 'may' fit all by itself in the mast track groove. Many one-design class boats attach their mainsails in this way (no slugs, the boltrope fits IN the mast groove). The track and the boltrope (luff) usually has to be well lubricated (either by simply rubbing on simple candlewax or by using a commercial lubricant such as McLube. A boltroped sail without slugs can easily be modified to a slugged bolt-rope by simply adding spur grommets through the luff tape (that encases the three dacron strand boltrope) and then either using plastic sail luff shackles that connect the grommet and the slugs or by simply hand sewing (sailmakers needle and waxed sail twine) webbing between the grommets and the slugs .... or simply 'lash' the slugs to the grommets with the heavy sailmakers twine. Such components would be available from a source such as sailrite.com, etc. I do caution you on the luff length of the sail that you purchase either new or used as there are 2 versions of the Capri 22 .... standard rig that has a 26.00 ft luff for the mainsail or the 'tall rig' that has a 28.00 ft. luff. ..... plus such a sail when hoisted 'should' be stretched on the luff (by the halyard tension) and additional approx. 2.6 - 2.75" to properly tension the sail for sailing in (design point) of 15 knots. So, the standard rig sail would be maximum of 26ft. 3in. and the tall rig would be 28ft. 3inches. luff length. There 'may' be a longer track length available depending on the mast manufacture and the rigging configuration ..... but those dimensions are the Capri 'class standard' as found in most 'sailmakers data handbooks'. Hope this helps.
A bolt-roped sail without slugs 'may' fit all by itself in the mast track groove. Many one-design class boats attach their mainsails in this way (no slugs, the boltrope fits IN the mast groove). The track and the boltrope (luff) usually has to be well lubricated (either by simply rubbing on simple candlewax or by using a commercial lubricant such as McLube. A boltroped sail without slugs can easily be modified to a slugged bolt-rope by simply adding spur grommets through the luff tape (that encases the three dacron strand boltrope) and then either using plastic sail luff shackles that connect the grommet and the slugs or by simply hand sewing (sailmakers needle and waxed sail twine) webbing between the grommets and the slugs .... or simply 'lash' the slugs to the grommets with the heavy sailmakers twine. Such components would be available from a source such as sailrite.com, etc. I do caution you on the luff length of the sail that you purchase either new or used as there are 2 versions of the Capri 22 .... standard rig that has a 26.00 ft luff for the mainsail or the 'tall rig' that has a 28.00 ft. luff. ..... plus such a sail when hoisted 'should' be stretched on the luff (by the halyard tension) and additional approx. 2.6 - 2.75" to properly tension the sail for sailing in (design point) of 15 knots. So, the standard rig sail would be maximum of 26ft. 3in. and the tall rig would be 28ft. 3inches. luff length. There 'may' be a longer track length available depending on the mast manufacture and the rigging configuration ..... but those dimensions are the Capri 'class standard' as found in most 'sailmakers data handbooks'. Hope this helps.
As always, good info.
And Rich, I have the standard rig. I ran a tape measure up the mast a few weeks ago. But I wasn't even aware that there was a tall rig until I started looking into this stuff recently, so the warning is appreciated. I'm still not sure of foot (boom) length - all the online info I find says that it should be 9.8', but what I measured from outhaul shackle to the horns was more like 9' even. I'll need to measure again. As for Rolly Tasker, I don't see any Maryland businesses on their list of dealers. Maybe I'll give Bacon a call and ask who makes their new sails.
And Rich, I have the standard rig. I ran a tape measure up the mast a few weeks ago. But I wasn't even aware that there was a tall rig until I started looking into this stuff recently, so the warning is appreciated. I'm still not sure of foot (boom) length - all the online info I find says that it should be 9.8', but what I measured from outhaul shackle to the horns was more like 9' even. I'll need to measure again. As for Rolly Tasker, I don't see any Maryland businesses on their list of dealers. Maybe I'll give Bacon a call and ask who makes their new sails.
Used Sail Evaluations
Ben, It might seem painful to your pocket, but I would definitely purchase a new sail. This rationale is based on the same idea with buying a new car that will be cheaper over the next few years as opposed to buying used. Ever wonder where used sails come from? Two items on the sail you are looking at might be a very negative influence: bolt ropes shrink. They shrink faster than the sail material. This shrinking of the luff of a bolt rope sail affects draft position. The sail material itself will stretch. The stretch affects draft position. After you combine these affects, you may have a sail whose maximum draft cannot be moved to a position to give you good sailing performance. Sadly, the sail may have never been that good in the first place, and when you add in years of sun and flogging.... New materials and new techniques have given sailmakers a real advantage over those sails made years back. Since you have an adjustable backstay, would it be correct to assume you have other sail adjustments like traveler, cunningham, main outhaul? A bagged out sail will nullify these sail adjustments. If you can at all afford it, do not buy someone else's shapeless sail.
Ben, It might seem painful to your pocket, but I would definitely purchase a new sail. This rationale is based on the same idea with buying a new car that will be cheaper over the next few years as opposed to buying used. Ever wonder where used sails come from? Two items on the sail you are looking at might be a very negative influence: bolt ropes shrink. They shrink faster than the sail material. This shrinking of the luff of a bolt rope sail affects draft position. The sail material itself will stretch. The stretch affects draft position. After you combine these affects, you may have a sail whose maximum draft cannot be moved to a position to give you good sailing performance. Sadly, the sail may have never been that good in the first place, and when you add in years of sun and flogging.... New materials and new techniques have given sailmakers a real advantage over those sails made years back. Since you have an adjustable backstay, would it be correct to assume you have other sail adjustments like traveler, cunningham, main outhaul? A bagged out sail will nullify these sail adjustments. If you can at all afford it, do not buy someone else's shapeless sail.
oreana -
You are correct, a bagged out sail will nullify those adjustments; the sail that I am attempting to replace tells me so! I've been wrestling with those sail adjustments to no avail over the last few years. I am still torn over whether to go new or used. There are arguments in favor of used; I don't race, I generally don't sail in harsh weather, and my budget is thin. I do believe that a used sail can be somewhat stretched but still very use-able for my purposes. That's the condition my main was in when we bought the boat. Worn, but not worn out. I got several good seasons out of it before it became a problem. If somebody can sell me another sail like that, it's worth a few hundred dollars to me. Still, a new sail is tempting. Using the car analogy, I've been very happy with having bought new back in '02. Getting the same thing out of a sail would be nice.
You are correct, a bagged out sail will nullify those adjustments; the sail that I am attempting to replace tells me so! I've been wrestling with those sail adjustments to no avail over the last few years. I am still torn over whether to go new or used. There are arguments in favor of used; I don't race, I generally don't sail in harsh weather, and my budget is thin. I do believe that a used sail can be somewhat stretched but still very use-able for my purposes. That's the condition my main was in when we bought the boat. Worn, but not worn out. I got several good seasons out of it before it became a problem. If somebody can sell me another sail like that, it's worth a few hundred dollars to me. Still, a new sail is tempting. Using the car analogy, I've been very happy with having bought new back in '02. Getting the same thing out of a sail would be nice.
Rolly Tasker
Hi, I also own a Capri 22. I bought a new main for my capri about a year ago. I bought it from a local dealer for Rolly Tasker. I had mine custom fit "measured". But if you do not have a dealer near you The Sail Warehouse uses Rolly Tasker sails. They are mail order place in California. The catalog I have for 2007 says a new main would cost $555.00. That is for regular battens and O E M. My new sail is much flatter and better than my original main. I recommend them for cruising sails. No sales tax but shipping. Check them out on the internet.
Hi, I also own a Capri 22. I bought a new main for my capri about a year ago. I bought it from a local dealer for Rolly Tasker. I had mine custom fit "measured". But if you do not have a dealer near you The Sail Warehouse uses Rolly Tasker sails. They are mail order place in California. The catalog I have for 2007 says a new main would cost $555.00. That is for regular battens and O E M. My new sail is much flatter and better than my original main. I recommend them for cruising sails. No sales tax but shipping. Check them out on the internet.
How much?
809 - How much did you pay for your main? And what do you mean by "measured"? Again, I can't thank everybody enough for all the good info. I am especially encouraged by the lower-than-expected prices I'm seeing for new sails. I think that the few sailors that I hang out with IRL are all racers, and gave me the impression that any sail is going to be more than $1,000. Apparently cruising sails come a bit cheaper.
809 - How much did you pay for your main? And what do you mean by "measured"? Again, I can't thank everybody enough for all the good info. I am especially encouraged by the lower-than-expected prices I'm seeing for new sails. I think that the few sailors that I hang out with IRL are all racers, and gave me the impression that any sail is going to be more than $1,000. Apparently cruising sails come a bit cheaper.
Ben-
data book shows both sailplans at 9.75ft of foot length for the mainsail. But the caution is that these are only 'book' values and that one should ALWAYS do 'actual' measurements. Obviously a new sail will give you the best bang for your $$$$. However, most boltroped mainsails can easily be brought back to decent shape by 'easing' a shrunken boltrope. A shrunken boltrope is probably the prime cause of a 'misbehaving' mainsail ... is probably the prime cause of adverse 'weather-helm'. As another poster listed boltropes shrink over time and repeated strain which results in that shortened boltrope causes the sail to be too full in draft, the sections of the sail near the luff will have a huge rounded shape, the position of maximum draft too far aft, and sometimes the leech wil be 'hooking' to windward, etc. Such a sail will produce excess heel, inability to 'point', while slowing down the boat. Every time you raise a boltroped sail you strain the boltrope and when you relax the tension the rope becomes a teeny bit shorter and fatter .... until ultimately the rope is too short to be 'useful'. Think of 3 strand docklines that get strained a lot - they get fatter and stiffer... same thing happens with luff boltropes. Visually its easy to see if the boltrope on an old sail is shrunken and needs to be eased. I make my own sails and usually adjust the boltropes after every hard season. The easiest way is to measure the angle that the luff/mast makes with the boom --- raise the sail then (for your sail/boat) apply additional halyard tension so the the sail luff is additionallly stretched by ~2.75", then measure the angle that the boom makes with the mast. For a well designed Capri22 main that angle should be ****88***** degrees. A shrunken boltrope will cause that angle to be much MORE than 88 degrees. For a 'good enough' visualization simply take a square piece of cardboard and hold it to the mast/boom to see if the upper surface of the boom and the mast are at at least 90 degrees with that extra 2.75" of luff stretch. The angle that the boom makes with the mast should NOT be such that the aft end of the boom is lower than the gooseneck (assuming the mast is 'straight-up". If the end of the boom seems to be 'lower' than the gooseneck (with moderate halyard strain), then you probably have a shrunken boltrope. There are TWO fixes(besdies buying new or used sails): 1. apply more halyard tension so that you verify that you *can' obtain that ~88 degrees (and that should be close to your 'target' halyrad tension for 15 kts.) OR take it to a sailmaker and have him/her 'ease' the boltrope. (This readjustment can be done on a DIY basis ... and sometimes not needing a sewing machine.) If your current sail has otherwise decent shape and condition you might simply try 'easing' or have a sailmaker ease that boltrope to restore the proper shape. as regards 'used' sails, especially mainsails, ask yourself - why anyone would be selling a sail that has 'good' shape ??!!! hope this helps.
data book shows both sailplans at 9.75ft of foot length for the mainsail. But the caution is that these are only 'book' values and that one should ALWAYS do 'actual' measurements. Obviously a new sail will give you the best bang for your $$$$. However, most boltroped mainsails can easily be brought back to decent shape by 'easing' a shrunken boltrope. A shrunken boltrope is probably the prime cause of a 'misbehaving' mainsail ... is probably the prime cause of adverse 'weather-helm'. As another poster listed boltropes shrink over time and repeated strain which results in that shortened boltrope causes the sail to be too full in draft, the sections of the sail near the luff will have a huge rounded shape, the position of maximum draft too far aft, and sometimes the leech wil be 'hooking' to windward, etc. Such a sail will produce excess heel, inability to 'point', while slowing down the boat. Every time you raise a boltroped sail you strain the boltrope and when you relax the tension the rope becomes a teeny bit shorter and fatter .... until ultimately the rope is too short to be 'useful'. Think of 3 strand docklines that get strained a lot - they get fatter and stiffer... same thing happens with luff boltropes. Visually its easy to see if the boltrope on an old sail is shrunken and needs to be eased. I make my own sails and usually adjust the boltropes after every hard season. The easiest way is to measure the angle that the luff/mast makes with the boom --- raise the sail then (for your sail/boat) apply additional halyard tension so the the sail luff is additionallly stretched by ~2.75", then measure the angle that the boom makes with the mast. For a well designed Capri22 main that angle should be ****88***** degrees. A shrunken boltrope will cause that angle to be much MORE than 88 degrees. For a 'good enough' visualization simply take a square piece of cardboard and hold it to the mast/boom to see if the upper surface of the boom and the mast are at at least 90 degrees with that extra 2.75" of luff stretch. The angle that the boom makes with the mast should NOT be such that the aft end of the boom is lower than the gooseneck (assuming the mast is 'straight-up". If the end of the boom seems to be 'lower' than the gooseneck (with moderate halyard strain), then you probably have a shrunken boltrope. There are TWO fixes(besdies buying new or used sails): 1. apply more halyard tension so that you verify that you *can' obtain that ~88 degrees (and that should be close to your 'target' halyrad tension for 15 kts.) OR take it to a sailmaker and have him/her 'ease' the boltrope. (This readjustment can be done on a DIY basis ... and sometimes not needing a sewing machine.) If your current sail has otherwise decent shape and condition you might simply try 'easing' or have a sailmaker ease that boltrope to restore the proper shape. as regards 'used' sails, especially mainsails, ask yourself - why anyone would be selling a sail that has 'good' shape ??!!! hope this helps.
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