Proper Course

Jan 7, 2014
401
Beneteau 45F5 51551 Port Jefferson
I agree on the zone - forgot the change but with a 0.5 miles to go to the mark and the wind on your beam "A course a boat would choose in order to sail the course and finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats" would be straight to the mark. I wouldn't try to argue the polars of a J105 versus a hunter in a protest especially within 0.5 miles of the mark.
 
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Jan 13, 2009
391
J Boat 92 78 Sandusky
There are some pretty scary answers.so far. In this situation the windward boat’s course means nothing. The leeward boat can have a myriad of reasons to sail above a straight line or compass course to the mark. Examples: oscillating shifts and he wants put some in the bank. Crossing boats ahead could tack on the lay line in front of him and he wants to stay in clear air going into the mark. He wants to stay high of the mark to do a jibe set for the next leg. The leeward boat cannot hit windward and must give room for windward to go up. BTW- hailing confusing or incorrect rules could be a rule 2 violation- fair sailing. The 105 might have had a case of rule 2 violation and gotten the H34 tossed. When you are obliterated to head up, don’t, and hail incorrectly you are not sailing fairly.
 

PaulK

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Dec 1, 2009
1,239
Sabre 402 Southport, CT
I agree on the zone - forgot the change but with a 0.5 miles to go to the mark and the wind on your beam "A course a boat would choose in order to sail the course and finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats" would be straight to the mark. I wouldn't try to argue the polars of a J105 versus a hunter in a protest especially within 0.5 miles of the mark.
As has been mentioned, L's course straight to the mark has to be on a higher heading than W's, or L will not make the mark. Jumpstart's reasoning is also valid. Besides this, no one has yet mentioned that W (a Hunter 34) is likely making more leeway than L(a J/105). This might make it appear that L is coming up when in reality, W is coming down. W must keep clear.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,770
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Just the other day I was headed for the windward mark on a not so square course such that I was reaching rather than close hauled. Along came a very nice J-105 on my leeward side and tried to bring me up claiming leeward rights. I politely but assertively claimed proper course as I was fetching the mark and, therefore, for them to bring me up they would have to sail above proper course. That backed them off but the questions is: was I right?
I thought it might be helpful to re-post this original question, because I have been fascinated by some of the comments, and truly appreciative of those who have responded to defining terms of which I was unfamiliar, thanks for those.
The fascination part(s) come from what I consider extraneous mention of items such as:
--- mark rounding - the OP makes no mention of being close to a mark and has no bearing on his question
--- starts - no bearing here
--- parallel courses- impossible given the question
--- puffs, lulls, other boats - not mentioned, nor relevant to the question
--- HunterbeneteaucatalinaJboat is immaterial. Why? W is sailing a beam reach. L is sailing higher - almost any boat could! They were both in the same race.
Basically, John's post which highlight the, uhm, highlights of the question.

To me, I tried to simplify this to: let's say W is sailing due west 270, his tack (port or starboard) doesn't matter, wind is from either north (or south) 'cuz he said he's beam reaching, to what I believe we can consider a distant mark BUT he is on his layline. For our purposes, let's say the wind is from the north.

The L boat is coming up on his port side steering 290, and he is sailing higher because the proper course to the distant mark for W is a reaching course. This is regardless of how the course is or was set to the wind; it is where he and the other competitor are AT THAT POINT IN TIME. (Ever sail on an empty lake and find a hour later that the ONLY other sailboat on the lake is going to end up in exactly the same place as you're gonna be?!?:)).

So, back to the question:

1. Should L have given way? L could have made the mark by falling off earlier and avoided W altogether because from where L was earlier he could have laid the mark because of the wind direction (not because he was in a boat that could point higher than W).

2. Should W have given way? A simple windward/leeward question for boats on the same tack (they had to be on the same tack or else the question wouldn't make sense).

I don't know the answer, but have simply tried to, uhm, simplify the question and weed out the stuff that has no bearing on the question.
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,069
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
OK. I threw in the towel a couple of days ago. But, I am unconvinced that L (J105) can sail whatever course it likes. There is a boundary (Or there wouldn't be a rule 17). And I think rule 17 pretty much limits Leeward from sailing above it's course to the mark. I don't remember if I posted this but the difference in W's and L's distance to the mark in .9 foot. i.e. negligible. The J105 is on the same course as the Hunter. There is no difference. L cannot pass W to leeward within 2 boat lengths and then head them up. That is the point of the rule 17.
 
Jan 13, 2009
391
J Boat 92 78 Sandusky
What? Rule makes no mention of compass course. Proper course could very well be 10-15 degrees above compass course from a 1/2 mile out. Pretty common for the wind to shift in a 1/2 mile. Again it is the proper course for L which is any course which L would reasonably take absent W. Once, on a light air broad reach as overtaking boat, I headed up a windward boat 30 degrees to get to the new breeze filling in to windward. W luffed up and I passed to leeward. He then fell down to his direct course. He protested me and lost because I reached the new breeze first, accelerated and easily beat him to the mark as the breeze filled. He was actually rated 6 sec/mi faster than me which is not relevant to the rule.
 
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Jan 13, 2009
391
J Boat 92 78 Sandusky
My proper course as leeward boat is any course that is fastest for me to get to the mark. In the example above my course to reach the new wind, increased boat speed and apparent wind moving forward are considerations for my proper course. Another example is W on a spinnaker reach. He is on his layline. I overtake with my A 3 on a sprit. My course is higher because that is my fastest way to the mark. W is sailing a 90degree apparent wind reach to the mark in say 7 knots of wind with his S spinnaker. I am sailing 1-1/2 knots faster at 80 degrees. W must keep clear even he has to luff his spinnaker. The fact that I will eventually have to jibe does not enter in since that is my fastest way to the mark.
 
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PaulK

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Dec 1, 2009
1,239
Sabre 402 Southport, CT
OK. I threw in the towel a couple of days ago. But, I am unconvinced that L (J105) can sail whatever course it likes. There is a boundary (Or there wouldn't be a rule 17). And I think rule 17 pretty much limits Leeward from sailing above it's course to the mark. I don't remember if I posted this but the difference in W's and L's distance to the mark in .9 foot. i.e. negligible. The J105 is on the same course as the Hunter. There is no difference. L cannot pass W to leeward within 2 boat lengths and then head them up. That is the point of the rule 17.
You are talking about two different things. L sailing her proper course is not the same thing as L coming alongside and then heading W up. If L were to suddenly luff up, the rule requires that she "promptly sail astern of the other boat." Imagine instead two boats simply sailing along, with L heading higher than W, and their paths converging. It happens all the time. In such a situation it is obvious that W would need to keep clear if their paths crossed, and it would be dangerous if L made any sudden, unexpected moves, like luffing up. That is why the rule is written the way it is. If the J/105 and Hunter are sailing on the same course, parallel courses, as you suggest, and the Hunter, to windward, is laying the mark, that would mean that the J/105, to leeward, would have to pass to leeward of the mark. Not heading high enough to fetch the mark - by sailing the same course as W - cannot be L's proper course. Jumpstart shows how having different sails set could make a difference in proper course for two different boats as well. To take it even further, imagine a dead-downwind leg in a race. The J/105 with an A-sym set will be tacking downwind, gybing back and forth across the course and sailing on reaches the whole way. The Hunter with its symmetrical chute up will head dead downwind straight on the rhumb line for the mark. If their paths should cross with the Hunter to windward on the same tack as the J/105, the Hunter will still have to keep clear as the J/105 swoops by. It should be easy for them, since the J will be going by so fast that just a quick turn of the Hunter's wheel would suffice. For the J, it would be almost as if the Hunter wasn't even there- which is, according to the definition of proper course, how it should be.
 

PaulK

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Dec 1, 2009
1,239
Sabre 402 Southport, CT
So, back to the question:
1. Should L have given way? L could have made the mark by falling off earlier and avoided W altogether because from where L was earlier he could have laid the mark because of the wind direction (not because he was in a boat that could point higher than W).

2. Should W have given way? A simple windward/leeward question for boats on the same tack (they had to be on the same tack or else the question wouldn't make sense).

I don't know the answer, but have simply tried to, uhm, simplify the question and weed out the stuff that has no bearing on the question.
1: No, L should not have given way. Where they could have been earlier and how they might have avoided W altogether has no bearing. L is where she is, and is trying to get to the mark - wherever it is- as quickly as she can, behaving as if W is not there. L is following her proper course.
2. Yes, W has to keep clear - very much a simple W/L question, except that L is limited to not sailing above her proper course. L can't luff W up. If W thinks L is sailing above her proper course, W can protest if L does not promptly sail astern of them, but this will be very difficult to prove. It is quite logical: if L is passing W, L must be following her proper course, trying to finish the race as quickly as possible.
 
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Jun 2, 2007
403
Beneteau First 375 Slidell, LA
I thought it might be helpful to re-post this original question, because I have been fascinated by some of the comments, and truly appreciative of those who have responded to defining terms of which I was unfamiliar, thanks for those.
The fascination part(s) come from what I consider extraneous mention of items such as:
--- mark rounding - the OP makes no mention of being close to a mark and has no bearing on his question
--- starts - no bearing here
--- parallel courses- impossible given the question
--- puffs, lulls, other boats - not mentioned, nor relevant to the question
--- HunterbeneteaucatalinaJboat is immaterial. Why? W is sailing a beam reach. L is sailing higher - almost any boat could! They were both in the same race.
Basically, John's post which highlight the, uhm, highlights of the question.

To me, I tried to simplify this to: let's say W is sailing due west 270, his tack (port or starboard) doesn't matter, wind is from either north (or south) 'cuz he said he's beam reaching, to what I believe we can consider a distant mark BUT he is on his layline. For our purposes, let's say the wind is from the north.

The L boat is coming up on his port side steering 290, and he is sailing higher because the proper course to the distant mark for W is a reaching course. This is regardless of how the course is or was set to the wind; it is where he and the other competitor are AT THAT POINT IN TIME. (Ever sail on an empty lake and find a hour later that the ONLY other sailboat on the lake is going to end up in exactly the same place as you're gonna be?!?:)).

So, back to the question:

1. Should L have given way? L could have made the mark by falling off earlier and avoided W altogether because from where L was earlier he could have laid the mark because of the wind direction (not because he was in a boat that could point higher than W).

2. Should W have given way? A simple windward/leeward question for boats on the same tack (they had to be on the same tack or else the question wouldn't make sense).

I don't know the answer, but have simply tried to, uhm, simplify the question and weed out the stuff that has no bearing on the question.
A few things -

The OP said he was heading to the windward mark, no mention of how far away he was. Conceivably the boats could have been within the 3 boatlength circle. Only in subsequent messages was it stated they were half a mile out.

The OP said he was reaching. He didn't say he was beam reaching. No real bearing on the outcome, but best to stick to the facts as presented.

The OP said the J105 came along on his leeward side. He didn't specify whether the 105 was initially sailing higher than him and they converged, or was on a parallel course. If the boats were less than 2 lengths apart, half a mile from the mark, and both were headed straight to the mark their courses would be indistinguishable from parallel. You picking courses of 270 and 290 for the two boats may or may not be accurate, that information was never given.

Puffs, lulls, and other boats are indeed relevant to the extent that the leeward boat can justify that their proper course is higher than the direct course to the mark.

Given he wording of rule 17, I would say the onus is on the windward boat to prove the leeward boat was sailing higher than his proper course, not an easy thing to do. However, if the leeward boat overtook him sailing essentially a parallel course, then turned up when they were overlapped, that would at least raise the question. With the information given so far, we can't determine whether that was the case or not.