I have a new 2002 356. What I don't know (I should) if it came standard with a propane sniffer to detect leaks. Would any of you know?
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Dave, just use your nose
Dave, I put an early one of those sniffers in my Ericson in the mid 70s. Drew 3/4 amp. Have one in my camper. Left the stoves burner on without lighting it and could smell the stink of the propane long before the alarm went off. Just save your money. Those things are installed because bureaucrats need to keep making rules to keep their jobs. (right Peggie?) Fred
Dave, I put an early one of those sniffers in my Ericson in the mid 70s. Drew 3/4 amp. Have one in my camper. Left the stoves burner on without lighting it and could smell the stink of the propane long before the alarm went off. Just save your money. Those things are installed because bureaucrats need to keep making rules to keep their jobs. (right Peggie?) Fred
Buy One, It's Worth The Cost
Dave, Don't know if you have one but if you don't get one. My boat didn't have one and so I bought one. Don't remember the cost but I think it was under $50. Battery operated. One night my ten year old somehow turned on the stove after I was asleep. The alarm went off and maybe saved us all. The placed smelled but none of us had woken up. Better safe than sorry. JM
Dave, Don't know if you have one but if you don't get one. My boat didn't have one and so I bought one. Don't remember the cost but I think it was under $50. Battery operated. One night my ten year old somehow turned on the stove after I was asleep. The alarm went off and maybe saved us all. The placed smelled but none of us had woken up. Better safe than sorry. JM
Bureaucrats aren't all stupid.
When we go to sleep, we lose our sense of smell, conscious movement, vision, and hearing, in that order. UPON AWAKENING, WE REGAIN THOSE SENSES IN THE REVERSE ORDER, SMELL BEING LAST...explaining is why a MAJORITY of fire deaths occur at night. We keep a smoke alarm (ionization detector) on our pillows...a reminder to hang it in the galley UPON RETIRING. Permanent mounting doesn't work due to false alarms from cooking. A propane sniffer is a great idea...the next addition to our boat.
When we go to sleep, we lose our sense of smell, conscious movement, vision, and hearing, in that order. UPON AWAKENING, WE REGAIN THOSE SENSES IN THE REVERSE ORDER, SMELL BEING LAST...explaining is why a MAJORITY of fire deaths occur at night. We keep a smoke alarm (ionization detector) on our pillows...a reminder to hang it in the galley UPON RETIRING. Permanent mounting doesn't work due to false alarms from cooking. A propane sniffer is a great idea...the next addition to our boat.
Where does one place a propane sniffer?
Since propane is heavier than air, should the sniffer be placed near the floorboards or in the bilge?
Since propane is heavier than air, should the sniffer be placed near the floorboards or in the bilge?
356
I'm sure our 356 does not have a propane sniffer. I didn't even know they existed. We've only used the stove a few time this season and are in the habit of turning the propane off at the tank and the switch at the nav station. I don't see any need for a propane sniffer unless you keep the gas supplied to the stove, which I'd think is crazy considering the risk.
I'm sure our 356 does not have a propane sniffer. I didn't even know they existed. We've only used the stove a few time this season and are in the habit of turning the propane off at the tank and the switch at the nav station. I don't see any need for a propane sniffer unless you keep the gas supplied to the stove, which I'd think is crazy considering the risk.
Tank turn off
On our 340, there is a swith by the sink and one on the panel. We finish cooking and turn both off then turn off tank valve in outside locker. Never leave on . would never go to sleep with it in on or leave boat with it on. As a young man, I worked in an oil refinery and gained much respect for the power of hydrocarbons. Tony
On our 340, there is a swith by the sink and one on the panel. We finish cooking and turn both off then turn off tank valve in outside locker. Never leave on . would never go to sleep with it in on or leave boat with it on. As a young man, I worked in an oil refinery and gained much respect for the power of hydrocarbons. Tony
We Installed One
Hi, Dave. We installed a sniffer on our 2001 H340. A propane sniffer was not part of the standard equipment on the 340, and I doubt it is on the 356. Both WM and BUS have them in their catalogs; about $150. Our detector pickup is mounted in the bilge; that's where the propane will tend to collect. The display is mounted in the galley. Modern boat propane systems (sealed locker, solenoid, minimum fittings, etc.) are inherently pretty safe; it usually requires multiple failures that conspire to defeat the safety. It's rare, but it does happen; just ask your marine insurance company. And don't trust your nose. Propane is heavier than air and it can find a spark long before it rises to the level of your nose. Although propane blowups are rare, considering the consequences of such an event, this was one place where we opted for a detector to catch the impossible if it ever happens. We don't know about your boat, but Murphy has been a frequent uninvited guest on ours! Carl and Jule s/v 'Syzygy'
Hi, Dave. We installed a sniffer on our 2001 H340. A propane sniffer was not part of the standard equipment on the 340, and I doubt it is on the 356. Both WM and BUS have them in their catalogs; about $150. Our detector pickup is mounted in the bilge; that's where the propane will tend to collect. The display is mounted in the galley. Modern boat propane systems (sealed locker, solenoid, minimum fittings, etc.) are inherently pretty safe; it usually requires multiple failures that conspire to defeat the safety. It's rare, but it does happen; just ask your marine insurance company. And don't trust your nose. Propane is heavier than air and it can find a spark long before it rises to the level of your nose. Although propane blowups are rare, considering the consequences of such an event, this was one place where we opted for a detector to catch the impossible if it ever happens. We don't know about your boat, but Murphy has been a frequent uninvited guest on ours! Carl and Jule s/v 'Syzygy'
Galley not the only place for a smoke detector
Faulty electrical wiring is the #1 cause of boat fires, followed by improper use of alchohol stoves. Other galley fires are way down the list. Smoke detectors should be placed where they can pick up the first signs (smoke, ions) soonest. Smoke and fume detectors should be hard-wired to the boat's 12v system--same as automatic bilge pumps--and made for marine use. Household units and battery powered units are not recommended for boats...humidity and salt air can cause corrosion that could prevent it from going off, and people forget to change batteries. You want alarms that will go off early and LOUD when you're not aboard too. No, Fred...smoke and propane detectors are not devices to help bureaucrats keep their jobs...Bureaucrats haven't quite been able to figure out a way to require that everyone who owns a boat be able to use intelligence and common sense...there aren't even any regs that require fume and smoke detectors on boats, only owners with enough common sense and intelligence to want to protect their boats, their families and themselves from a tragedy that doesn't have to happen. The regs DO require fire extinguishers, but only two on most boats. That doesn't mean you can't have more...and smart owners do...because they know it should never be necessary to go through a fire to get to one (or to get out of the boat). Ideally, there should be a fire extinguisher in every sleeping area (just inside it), the galley, and at the entrance to the cabin from the cockpit...so that you can grab it wherever you are in the boat, and go forward to use it, but can also BACK AWAY from the fire to get out of the boat through a deck hatch or the companionway ladder. Another emergency safety trick: keep car keys, wallets etc all together in a waterproof bag in your berth that you can grab and hang around your neck to take with you as you crawl out the hatch. And leashes for your pets right next to the bag that can be quickly attached before you push 'em through the hatch to the last person out before you.
Faulty electrical wiring is the #1 cause of boat fires, followed by improper use of alchohol stoves. Other galley fires are way down the list. Smoke detectors should be placed where they can pick up the first signs (smoke, ions) soonest. Smoke and fume detectors should be hard-wired to the boat's 12v system--same as automatic bilge pumps--and made for marine use. Household units and battery powered units are not recommended for boats...humidity and salt air can cause corrosion that could prevent it from going off, and people forget to change batteries. You want alarms that will go off early and LOUD when you're not aboard too. No, Fred...smoke and propane detectors are not devices to help bureaucrats keep their jobs...Bureaucrats haven't quite been able to figure out a way to require that everyone who owns a boat be able to use intelligence and common sense...there aren't even any regs that require fume and smoke detectors on boats, only owners with enough common sense and intelligence to want to protect their boats, their families and themselves from a tragedy that doesn't have to happen. The regs DO require fire extinguishers, but only two on most boats. That doesn't mean you can't have more...and smart owners do...because they know it should never be necessary to go through a fire to get to one (or to get out of the boat). Ideally, there should be a fire extinguisher in every sleeping area (just inside it), the galley, and at the entrance to the cabin from the cockpit...so that you can grab it wherever you are in the boat, and go forward to use it, but can also BACK AWAY from the fire to get out of the boat through a deck hatch or the companionway ladder. Another emergency safety trick: keep car keys, wallets etc all together in a waterproof bag in your berth that you can grab and hang around your neck to take with you as you crawl out the hatch. And leashes for your pets right next to the bag that can be quickly attached before you push 'em through the hatch to the last person out before you.
Bureaucrats are very smart
By definition bureaucrats are smart, in that they make money doing what most people consider to be not 'real work'. Anyway this topic is ripe with the potential for people to be very,,, I'll say 'eloquent'. One should do what one is comfortable with. If you have no experience with something like propane and you are not comfortable with your installation, i.e.; not a true marine stove with gas flow shut off upon flame failure, then by all means, do what you must. As far as the sense of smell not picking up propane, if your sniffer works when your awake, I can't see how you could sleep through a propane leak. My wife and I both woke up and couldn't go back to sleep when we had one. But that was in our camper that was not equipped with marine stove shut offs. One of us must have bumped a burner knob in the dark when we got up to use the head. The camper didn't blowup and the pilot light was on for both the cook top and oven. Our marine stove shut offs have never failed in 15 years.
By definition bureaucrats are smart, in that they make money doing what most people consider to be not 'real work'. Anyway this topic is ripe with the potential for people to be very,,, I'll say 'eloquent'. One should do what one is comfortable with. If you have no experience with something like propane and you are not comfortable with your installation, i.e.; not a true marine stove with gas flow shut off upon flame failure, then by all means, do what you must. As far as the sense of smell not picking up propane, if your sniffer works when your awake, I can't see how you could sleep through a propane leak. My wife and I both woke up and couldn't go back to sleep when we had one. But that was in our camper that was not equipped with marine stove shut offs. One of us must have bumped a burner knob in the dark when we got up to use the head. The camper didn't blowup and the pilot light was on for both the cook top and oven. Our marine stove shut offs have never failed in 15 years.
Comparing boat and camper can be dangerous
Campers and RVs don't have bilges. Propane tanks are lashed to the outside of the "hull"..fuel and waste tanks are mounted underneath...and most fuel and other leaks fall to the ground where they dissipate in the air. You slept through the propane leak on your camper because propane is heavier than air and campers aren't airtight...it fell and escaped wherever it could down low. Otoh, everything on a boat is inside the hull...and boats have bilges where fumes and other leaks can settle and collect, making boats far more vulnerable to fire and explosion than campers and RVs. It's all well and good to say, "do whatever you're comfortable with" as long that doesn't include neglecting to install safety and warning devices that could not only save you and your family, but your boat and every other boat on your dock when you're not there. When it comes to fire and explosion prevention, your responsibility doesn't end with your own boat.
Campers and RVs don't have bilges. Propane tanks are lashed to the outside of the "hull"..fuel and waste tanks are mounted underneath...and most fuel and other leaks fall to the ground where they dissipate in the air. You slept through the propane leak on your camper because propane is heavier than air and campers aren't airtight...it fell and escaped wherever it could down low. Otoh, everything on a boat is inside the hull...and boats have bilges where fumes and other leaks can settle and collect, making boats far more vulnerable to fire and explosion than campers and RVs. It's all well and good to say, "do whatever you're comfortable with" as long that doesn't include neglecting to install safety and warning devices that could not only save you and your family, but your boat and every other boat on your dock when you're not there. When it comes to fire and explosion prevention, your responsibility doesn't end with your own boat.
I was going to let this drop but...
Peggie, Now you're talking down to me. You don't know me or what my life experiences are. Stretch your logic to its' conclusion and we are all responsible for every breath we breathe. You are probably referring to the fire hazard to others in a marina. Check with a lawyer on that one, but under English law, it seems to me that unless we act negligently or with the willful disregard of the safety of others, our liability is limited to the 'prudent man doctrine'. Otherwise then, that is what insurance is for. Back to propane. Your logic is flawed. We were well above that leak, in our berth and it still stunk like hell. Our camper is a cold weather model and has no air leaks. The leaking propane did so past TWO pilot lights. If we weren't there, I know of nothing that would have prevented an explosion. Speaking of explosion. The last time I towed a burning sailboat out of a marina was because the fire was getting close to the propane tank. It was the winter of 91. The location was Mary G Shroyers' Marina de La Paz. No fire fighting gear was available. It was clearly an electrical fire, (I know about those things) so it wasn't going to go out. The other cruisers in the marina were clearly in danger. Our dingy was handy because we used it to respond from the anchorage to the call for help. Fortunately we have a 25hp Yamaha. We untied the burning vessel and pulled it toward the marina entrance. We got about one boat length from the slip it was tied to and,,,it,,,BLEW UP! The result? The tank was mounted in the cockpit. The top half went straight up. It looked like the bottom half stayed in the boat. The flames were huge, but not from the propane. It blew with a dull thud. The fire then took off because it was burning fiberglass. We managed to accelerate fast enough to keep from igniting a cabin cruiser but it was scary. The flybridge was covered in flames because of the wind. We got out of the anchorage and missed several cruisers. Of course the victim sailboat burned to the waterline but never sank. We were able to beach it in the closed end of the harbor, away from other boats. Learned a little about propane that night. Just like gasoline, its' full fury is unleashed only when thoroughly mixed with air. At the bow, we were in the safest place. The hull stopped every thing. OK Peggie, let's not let this get out of hand. It's just that I've been around the block, so to speak. Done some of this stuff for a living too, and even have witness in case you think I BS thee. Take care. Fred P.S. One more thing, I didn't say we slept through the leak. I said it stunk so bad it woke us up.
Peggie, Now you're talking down to me. You don't know me or what my life experiences are. Stretch your logic to its' conclusion and we are all responsible for every breath we breathe. You are probably referring to the fire hazard to others in a marina. Check with a lawyer on that one, but under English law, it seems to me that unless we act negligently or with the willful disregard of the safety of others, our liability is limited to the 'prudent man doctrine'. Otherwise then, that is what insurance is for. Back to propane. Your logic is flawed. We were well above that leak, in our berth and it still stunk like hell. Our camper is a cold weather model and has no air leaks. The leaking propane did so past TWO pilot lights. If we weren't there, I know of nothing that would have prevented an explosion. Speaking of explosion. The last time I towed a burning sailboat out of a marina was because the fire was getting close to the propane tank. It was the winter of 91. The location was Mary G Shroyers' Marina de La Paz. No fire fighting gear was available. It was clearly an electrical fire, (I know about those things) so it wasn't going to go out. The other cruisers in the marina were clearly in danger. Our dingy was handy because we used it to respond from the anchorage to the call for help. Fortunately we have a 25hp Yamaha. We untied the burning vessel and pulled it toward the marina entrance. We got about one boat length from the slip it was tied to and,,,it,,,BLEW UP! The result? The tank was mounted in the cockpit. The top half went straight up. It looked like the bottom half stayed in the boat. The flames were huge, but not from the propane. It blew with a dull thud. The fire then took off because it was burning fiberglass. We managed to accelerate fast enough to keep from igniting a cabin cruiser but it was scary. The flybridge was covered in flames because of the wind. We got out of the anchorage and missed several cruisers. Of course the victim sailboat burned to the waterline but never sank. We were able to beach it in the closed end of the harbor, away from other boats. Learned a little about propane that night. Just like gasoline, its' full fury is unleashed only when thoroughly mixed with air. At the bow, we were in the safest place. The hull stopped every thing. OK Peggie, let's not let this get out of hand. It's just that I've been around the block, so to speak. Done some of this stuff for a living too, and even have witness in case you think I BS thee. Take care. Fred P.S. One more thing, I didn't say we slept through the leak. I said it stunk so bad it woke us up.
Not everyone's a light sleeper Fred
Fred, My Daughter's ears work fine when awake, but I've seen her keep right on sleeping when her boom box alarm clock goes off at near max volume! It is a fact that there has been many boat propane fires that have occurred with folks sleeping on board. Bottom line, a wise man will not rely on his biological sniffer. You and you're wife woke up.... that time, but do you want to chance the next?… for the price of a detector? Oh, and on the liability issue, if my boat goes up in flames for whatever reason, and the flames spread to an adjoining boat, I suspect I am liable/ responsible as my boat started the fire and I own it...which is why we have liability insurence. I hope there’s a lawyer in the crowd to speak on this. Don Bodemann PS: not speaking up or down…let’s keep it friendly folks
Fred, My Daughter's ears work fine when awake, but I've seen her keep right on sleeping when her boom box alarm clock goes off at near max volume! It is a fact that there has been many boat propane fires that have occurred with folks sleeping on board. Bottom line, a wise man will not rely on his biological sniffer. You and you're wife woke up.... that time, but do you want to chance the next?… for the price of a detector? Oh, and on the liability issue, if my boat goes up in flames for whatever reason, and the flames spread to an adjoining boat, I suspect I am liable/ responsible as my boat started the fire and I own it...which is why we have liability insurence. I hope there’s a lawyer in the crowd to speak on this. Don Bodemann PS: not speaking up or down…let’s keep it friendly folks
Thanks for your comments
Thanks for your comments on the sniffer. I believe in an ounce of safety. As a paramedic, I learned that everyone picks their risk. I'll accept the risk of sailing in big wind - I'll be adding a sniffer in the spring and for that matter, additional fire extinguishers. Have a safe 2003! Cheers!!
Thanks for your comments on the sniffer. I believe in an ounce of safety. As a paramedic, I learned that everyone picks their risk. I'll accept the risk of sailing in big wind - I'll be adding a sniffer in the spring and for that matter, additional fire extinguishers. Have a safe 2003! Cheers!!
Safety?
If it was really a safety issue the Coast Guard would require it. I think it's just piece of mind.
If it was really a safety issue the Coast Guard would require it. I think it's just piece of mind.
Scott
You are wrong. The Coast Guard has had time to adopt only a very few of the ABYC accepted saftey standards that are now followed by most boat builders.
You are wrong. The Coast Guard has had time to adopt only a very few of the ABYC accepted saftey standards that are now followed by most boat builders.
Kate, explain what you mean by
Why hasn't the Coast Guard had "time". They have lots of standards. Why haven't they adopted propane sniffers. I just spent all the time they would need to write a rule if it was needed. Explain.
Why hasn't the Coast Guard had "time". They have lots of standards. Why haven't they adopted propane sniffers. I just spent all the time they would need to write a rule if it was needed. Explain.
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