propane safety

[willsnow]

seems like the majority of us use a basic camp stove that runs off propane bottles. im wondering what lengths you all go to when using propane stoves? do you have a bulk tank set up where the stove is always connected? big boats usually have a propane locker that seals it off from the rest of the boat. R/V's often store it on their tongue

as i understand it, propane is heavier than air so any time a little bit escapes the line (unhooking it from the stove) it pools at the lowest point, which could be cabin sole or bilge. then all you need is a spark and youre in trouble. or am I worrying too much?

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

It's Not All That Bad .................

as i understand it, propane is heavier than air so any time a little bit escapes the line (unhooking it from the stove) it pools at the lowest point, which could be cabin sole or bilge. then all you need is a spark and youre in trouble. or am I worrying too much?

.................. as long as you've got good ventilation in the cabin. The small amount which is released when unscrewing a small propane bottle is no cause for concern.

 

[Sumner]

Going the 'big boat' way is a lot of expense and trouble and where would you put the locker for it. We have the Endeavour setup like that as it has an outside locker. You also need a solenoid valve that will turn the gas off at the locker when not in use and all of that is expensive along with the flexible lines.

On the Mac ....

...we go the camp stove approach...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor/inside-13.html

...and it works great and we even used it on the Endeavour until we put in new lines and such to make sure we had a safe setup. As was mentioned the gas released putting the bottle on/off is nothing to worry about. We keep the bottles outside of the cabin when not in use in the cockpit and store extra bottles...

...in 2 ABS plastic tubes shown above at the back of the boat under the solar panel on the port side.

We go for a lot of ventilation when using the stove with the pop-top up. If it is down we prop the fronts side up with a 2X4 and open the companionway slide hatch. So we never run the stove with the cabin closed. Even with the ventilation in cold weather it heats the cabin. We have used the above weeks at a time with no problems. Good luck,

Sum

 

[cscott]

I use the small camp bottles for my propane stove. Only have them hooked up when cooking. After cooking, they are stored outside where the air can get at them. I also have a gas detecter in cabin.

Chuck

 

[centerline]

for safetys sake, dont take this out of context and think there is no problem when you smell gas. read both paragraphs for a full perspective.

Usually, a bit of propane escaping when you are hooking up or unhooking the bottle from your stove/heating system is not a problem after about 30seconds, due to dissapation.... the smell from that small volume of gas will fill a large area, but the actual amount of gas that that smell is coming from will not be volatile in the same area.... the unknown is, and is SOMETIMES a problem with these bottles, they can continue to leak for a time after they have been disconnected, so its hard to say how much gas has escaped. this doesnt happen often, and so the problem is sometimes overlooked.

as long as people are moving about the space and there is proper ventilation, as there needs to always be in any habitable space, a small amount of gas such as what would normally be lost during bottle changes, will become mixed in the air and vent out...
even a very small steady leak can be continually vented and go unnoticed in this manner, BUT IT BECOMES A BIG PROBLEM when the activity stops or the vent is closed, such as at bedtime or when you close the boat up and go somewhere... then there is no mixing/stirring of the air to mix the gas, and THEN it settles in the low spots and will slowly fill the boat up with gas like if it were a water hose spilling water in to it, and displacing the air/oxygen... only it will be a hull full of explosive gas, rather than a hull full of water.....

so the point is, in reference to your original post, I dont think you have a thing to worry about. the fact that you posted the question means you are aware of the dangers of it, which is what most people dont think about and gets them into trouble...

and dont think that because ive posted this bit of info, and that you have read it, that it makes you safer, because it doesnt. it only make you more aware of how it works

 

[willsnow]

thanks for the input / reassurance, fellas. i ask because of this: in the pics below you can see how tightly my stove fits on my galley counter. (when i designed the galley, i took measurements of the stove... not the stove with a bottle attached). So now, when i connect a 1lb bottle, it sticks out so far from the stove that i have to position the stove over the sink and it basically takes up the whole galley. i want to run a hose through the fiberglass "wall" next to the stove and down to a bottle below the galley counter top. i would like to have a bulk tank, simply for the safety of a shut off valve, under the galley or settee. the hose could be long enough that it is always hooked up and shut off, or shut off before extinguishing the burner so the last little bit is burned off before being disconnected.
any thoughts / opinions are greatly appreciated

 

[cscott]

They make extention hoses that would let you screw the small bottles to under the sink, than remove it outside when done. I would not feel good with a large tank under the sink. Most applications I have seen have the large tanks outside.

Chuck

 

[Sumner]

... i want to run a hose through the fiberglass "wall" next to the stove and down to a bottle below the galley counter top. i would like to have a bulk tank, simply for the safety of a shut off valve, under the galley or settee. ...

I think you really don't want to have a large tank in the boat or even the small ones when not being used. You are creating a dangerous situation.

The following...

Propane Lockers

All connections between the propane tank, regulator, and solenoid valve need to be made in a vapor-tight compartment separated from the interior of the boat, or outside of the boat in a location where leaking gas will not drain to the interior of the boat. If your boat does not have a built-in propane locker that vents directly overboard, we offer ready-made propane lockers. A vent line, as shown in the diagrams from the lowest point of the locker, must drain overboard above the waterline. The tanks must be well secured so that they cannot tip over and leak or become damaged.

.... from here....

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wc...oreId=11151&page=Propane-Systems#.UpomrSdDSJQ

I'd suggest looking for a smaller stove. We bought the one...

...we did since it was smaller than the ones we had that are similar to yours. It takes up less space in use or ....

... in storage and the bottle goes on and off easily. We bought it at Walmart. Not sure if they still have them or not. We bought 2 spares since we have everything set up for that stove and didn't want to need a replacement down the road and not find one.

It looks like you might be able to use yours where we do. It has worked out fine. Ruth uses the counter and table to prepare the meal and I cook it while sitting on the port side. Once the meal is over the stove is put up and dishes are washed.

You also don't need the large tank as far as consumption. We didn't even use 6 bottles in 7+ weeks out cooking every day. I think we used like 3-4.

Good luck,

Sum

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]============================[/FONT]

Our Endeavour 37

Our MacGregor 26-S Pages

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links

 

[MrBill_FLL]

I would store the 1# bottles inside of 4" pvc tubes attached outside the cabin. not inside.

But if you were really determined to have a large tank, you could make a vented storage locker inside the laz, its big enough, and waterline off the back should be ok.

in a pinch you could probably use a large round igloo take off the spout and tie it to the stern rail. I think a smaller LPG tank would fit inside.


fwiw, I have the century camp stove. the flexible hose allows me to move the tank out of the way. but mostly I use a magma grill outside on the stern rail.

 

[Sumner]

If you go with the large tank and want to be compliant with the rules on this, in addition to the cost of building a locker that is isolated from the inside of the boat you will need the following besides the tank:

A regulator...

... at $80 or more, a solenoid...

... by the tank, $60 and up.

a line from the solenoid to the stove...

.... $50.00 and up for say a 20 footer if you are going from the back of the boat to the galley. Do not use solid line of any type.

Then maybe some fitting from that line to mate it to the stove.

Then a ....

.... a switch to operate the solenoid and indicate when it is on or off, another $30 or so.

You also wouldn't want to undo the line to the stove with the amount of gas in 20 feet of line in the small cabin so the stove would have to be stored with the line attached probably and that would present problems.

I just see no reason to try and use a tank on our small boats. We spent a couple hundred just replacing the wore out items on the Endeavour and didn't have to replace it all. We even used the Mac stove and small bottles in the boat yard for 4 months living on the boat at the time. I'll admit now that we brought the propane to the boat's stove up to-date things are better but would never think about trying to duplicate that on the Mac.

Use the small bottles unless you plan on being out months at a time,

Sum

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]============================[/FONT]

Our Endeavour 37

Our MacGregor 26-S Pages

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links

 

[willsnow]

Hmmm. Sounds like making it safe is not worth the hassle. The 1lb bottles work fine if I use the stove on the table. On to the next idea...

 

[Chris & Lenore]

One last thought about a solution I saw but has not been mentioned (for a 26 S/D).
You can mount a PVC pipe storage unit in the aft locker and vent it to the drain line. I saw one of these where the owner had three tubes that each held two of the disposable cylinders. These were mounted in the aft locker of his 26S against he side of the motor well. Each unit had a barbed connector on the bottom that vented it to a T in the motor well drain line. It was "all downhill" to the great outdoors as far as any escaping gas was concerned.

Chris

 

[willsnow]

the company that makes my stove does make a flexible adapter hose for it. that may let me keep using my galley as i had designed it and move the 1# bottle out of the way. i think ill order it and see if i can do anything with it.
sailing season is over and project season is in full swing!

 

[priariesailor]

Re: It's Not All That Bad .................

Do NOT install a "bulk" propane cylinder anywhere in the cabin. All propane cylinders with the wheel type valve incorporate an overpressure relief in the valve which can vent gas at any time due to over filling, increased ambient temp or just a malfunctioning relief valve.
Big boat propane lockers have a drain at the low point to drain vapour for this reason.
In Canada, for example, it is illegal to transport a propane cylinder in an enclosed vehicle - read car trunk -and I imagine ditto in the States. Can't think of a funner situation than a propane fire in a fibreglass boat - even if you survived the initial explosion.

 

[seaStan]

I have a carbon monoxide detector mounted low in the cabin and a smoke detector mounted high I'm more concerned about monoxide than propane. Propane smells but carbon monoxide does not. I have a small butane one burner stove I use in the cabin and a 2 burner stove I use outside. I didn't seal the bottle on the one burner correctly once but smelled my mistake quickly, turned everything off and aired out the cabin for a few minutes. I now pay more attention when I am screwing on the bottle.

 

[finding41]

I've had more than a few of the small green camping propane tanks leak once the appliance is removed. Usually a torch head or Coleman lantern in my case.
I've resorted to leaving them attached to the appliance.... Not the best situation.
I like the idea that Chris mentioned to store and vent them. I might just use that for the full ones.
On my Force 10 the tank just hangs off the end.... I think I'll make a SS sling to hold the tank for the BBQ on the rail so it doesn't have to be removed while under way.

 

[Chris & Lenore]

I've had more than a few of the small green camping propane tanks leak once the appliance is removed. Usually a torch head or Coleman lantern in my case. I've resorted to leaving them attached to the appliance.... Not the best situation. I like the idea that Chris mentioned to store and vent them. I might just use that for the full ones. On my Force 10 the tank just hangs off the end.... I think I'll make a SS sling to hold the tank for the BBQ on the rail so it doesn't have to be removed while under way.

So here is my "solution" to leaving the "in use" propane bottle connected to the stove but not I the way or requiring a mount/sling.

I will use an extension hose (available at Lowes). NOT the one that connects a stove using the disposable cylinders to a regular tank but one that connects to a disposable 1 lb cylinder.

This hose lets me put the disposable "in use" cylinder in the motor well on our 26 S (which has a drain at the low point to vent any escaping has overboard). I will make a holder out of white PVC pipe for the cylinder. I have sufficient room to mount this and not interfere with using or raising the outboard.

Neat, tidy, out of the way and safe.

FWIW our stove/BBQ is a round Magma unit that is mounted with a rail mount on the port side aft rail vertical. I use a hose clamp to keep it in place vertically which allows me to loosen the clamp a turn and rotate the BBQ - back under the solar panel when not in use and forward to where it is easily accessible when in use. This has proven to be the best setup I have ever had - mainly because it's completely out of the way or in position as I want it and in a couple seconds.

I'll try to dig up a few pics.

Chris

 

[Chris & Lenore]

Here are a few pics that hopefully show my bbq mount described above.
The first pic is of it swivelled back under the solar panel. It's completely out of the way there.




And here is it swivelled forward and easily accessible from the cockpit (and far enough away from the Bimini edge).





Another of it parked...

 

[vizwhiz]

That helps... But I don't have a stern rail (yet?) to mount a grill on. Will have to come up with other options...

Speaking of grills, does anyone use charcoal? I'm thinking that it has to be safer to store onboard than propane...
(But mostly just that i like the flavor better than gas.)
Any reason you can't just dump the burned-out coals and ash in the water when you're done? It's completely organic...right?

 

[Erieau]

Keeping the charcoal dry can be a challenge. If its not sealed in big freezer bags, be prepared to use a whole lot of lighter fluid to keep it burning while it "dries out."
This from my experience of keeping a little hibachi dockside.
Like you, I like the whole charcoal experience too; but the convenience of propane's instant cookable fire is irresistible. I use a propane Magma onboard.