I am thinking of converting our Hunter 25 to all propane power- stove, grill (which is already propane) and outboard. I recently read a Practical Sailor article that says propane is not the safety issue many U.S. sailors think it is. Pluses would be better stove operation than alcohol, I already own a 2-burner propane camp stove, cleaner, more reliable outboard operation. We use the grill on the stern, and would simply move the quick-connect from the outboard to the grill- doubtful we would be grillin' and motorin' at the same time. Anybody done this sort of thing? Problems? Sources for materials? Thanks.
- Status
Propane outboard motor?
Did someone invent a new product and it went right by me? It's happened before, and I don't want to miss this one.
Did someone invent a new product and it went right by me? It's happened before, and I don't want to miss this one.
There are already motor vehicles ...
running on propane. A carburator modification and presure regulator is necessary. As far as I know these modification items are not commercially available at present for outboard engines. In our neck of the woods propane is sold by the pound and to refill a standard grill 20 pounds tank is about $9.00. It is a lot cheaper than natural gas. If you have any doubts about about safety issues and propane look at this month issue of "Good Old Boat" to see what a 55 ft Nicholson yawl looks like with its cockpit deck and cabin missing.
running on propane. A carburator modification and presure regulator is necessary. As far as I know these modification items are not commercially available at present for outboard engines. In our neck of the woods propane is sold by the pound and to refill a standard grill 20 pounds tank is about $9.00. It is a lot cheaper than natural gas. If you have any doubts about about safety issues and propane look at this month issue of "Good Old Boat" to see what a 55 ft Nicholson yawl looks like with its cockpit deck and cabin missing.
Propane has Fewer BTUs
Your performance will lag behind Natural gas and gasoline. Propane does not go "stale" like gas does so there is an advantage there. Many folks here are looking at running their huricane generators with natural gas or propane as there is always a shortage of gasoline after a storm.
Your performance will lag behind Natural gas and gasoline. Propane does not go "stale" like gas does so there is an advantage there. Many folks here are looking at running their huricane generators with natural gas or propane as there is always a shortage of gasoline after a storm.
Very Low Octane
A couple of problems. 1. Propane has very low octane. It is easy to convert a diesel to propane or natural gas. 2. Lubrication if your outboard is a two stroke. The idea of converting my diesel to propane is very appealing!!!! No more fuel filters!!!!! No more black smoke. No more awful diesel smell. We have an old alcohol stove that needs to be replaced and we could add a propane stove for winter heat. My biggest concern is turning my boat into a "bomb". That is why we haven't gotten rid of the alcohol stove.
A couple of problems. 1. Propane has very low octane. It is easy to convert a diesel to propane or natural gas. 2. Lubrication if your outboard is a two stroke. The idea of converting my diesel to propane is very appealing!!!! No more fuel filters!!!!! No more black smoke. No more awful diesel smell. We have an old alcohol stove that needs to be replaced and we could add a propane stove for winter heat. My biggest concern is turning my boat into a "bomb". That is why we haven't gotten rid of the alcohol stove.
Ross you are correct!!
I remember from organic chemistry that diesel is mostly long chain aliphatic hydrocarbons and the gasoline is shorter chains with aromatics used to boost octane. That gasoline 7-10 carbons? without a octane booster causes car engines to knock due to preignition due to heat and pressure. Diesels use low octane(high cetane) and heat and pressure for auto ignition. Since propane is a short 3 chain aliphatic and I've seen diesel conversions I assumed that it had a high cetane rating. BUT I looked up diesel conversions to propane and the conversion requires the addition of spark plugs!!! Assumptions can get me into trouble. Another logical conclusion proven false. I never imagined that conversion of a diesel to propane required so much work.
I remember from organic chemistry that diesel is mostly long chain aliphatic hydrocarbons and the gasoline is shorter chains with aromatics used to boost octane. That gasoline 7-10 carbons? without a octane booster causes car engines to knock due to preignition due to heat and pressure. Diesels use low octane(high cetane) and heat and pressure for auto ignition. Since propane is a short 3 chain aliphatic and I've seen diesel conversions I assumed that it had a high cetane rating. BUT I looked up diesel conversions to propane and the conversion requires the addition of spark plugs!!! Assumptions can get me into trouble. Another logical conclusion proven false. I never imagined that conversion of a diesel to propane required so much work.
If you think propane is the bomb...
Just wait till the hydrogen economy arrives. Like Hindenberg meets Titanic!
Just wait till the hydrogen economy arrives. Like Hindenberg meets Titanic!
converting diesels to run on propane,ng,etc
several yrs ago i worked for a company that was a co-gen power co. we had cat diesels that ran on what was termed dual fuel. ie. they ran on a comb of natural gas/diesel. 85%nat gas 15% diesel fuel. the diesel fuel was used to ignite the nat gas. the units that would run on only nat gas had to have an ignition system. another thing was that the compression ratio had to be lowered in order to run on nat gas. this was accomplished by changing the pistons. if running on propane only i don't know if internal modif need to be made but my quess is that there would some needed. compression ratios for diesels vs gas is radically different. ross is correct in that octane rating is higher. it would burn a hole in the pistons if the comp ratio isn't lowered. i'm not positive but i believe that the gasoline eng comversions have to have the timing severally retarted to run on propane,etc. s/v Que Pasa?
several yrs ago i worked for a company that was a co-gen power co. we had cat diesels that ran on what was termed dual fuel. ie. they ran on a comb of natural gas/diesel. 85%nat gas 15% diesel fuel. the diesel fuel was used to ignite the nat gas. the units that would run on only nat gas had to have an ignition system. another thing was that the compression ratio had to be lowered in order to run on nat gas. this was accomplished by changing the pistons. if running on propane only i don't know if internal modif need to be made but my quess is that there would some needed. compression ratios for diesels vs gas is radically different. ross is correct in that octane rating is higher. it would burn a hole in the pistons if the comp ratio isn't lowered. i'm not positive but i believe that the gasoline eng comversions have to have the timing severally retarted to run on propane,etc. s/v Que Pasa?
I googled dual fuel diesel engines
and got this. Current Dual-FuelTM Technology The Dual-FuelTM engine uses the same diesel engine, but generates power by burning mostly clean natural gas. The diesel engine operates unchanged, but from the outset, a measured quantity of natural gas is mixed with the air just before it enters the cylinder. This lean fuel-air mixture is then compressed to the same levels of the diesel engine, thus maintaining efficiency. Due to its resistance to compression ignition, the natural gas mixture does not ignite spontaneously under the compression. Instead, the Dual-FuelTM engine uses a small injection of diesel fuel, around 10% of the total energy of the fuel, to ignite the main charge of gas and air. This small “pilot” injection acts like a multitude of microscopic spark-plugs, setting off clean and efficient combustion of the lean gas-air mixture. The natural gas burns cleaner than diesel, resulting in much lower harmful emissions. With fuel-efficiency similar to that of the original diesel engine, CO2 emissions are reduced by up to 25% due the inherently low carbon content of natural gas. Although approximately 90% of the diesel is replaced by natural gas, a similar level of power is generated by the energy released from the gas combustion and the efficiency therefore remains similar to the original diesel engine. Clean Air Power is unaware of any dedicated natural gas trucks that can match a Dual-FuelTM truck for efficiency and performance. Thus, Dual-FuelTM technology enables the diesel engine to operate with comparable efficiency and power on natural gas, benefiting from lower harmful emissions, lower CO2 and lower fuel costs. http://www.cleanairpower.com/?p=dual_fuel
and got this. Current Dual-FuelTM Technology The Dual-FuelTM engine uses the same diesel engine, but generates power by burning mostly clean natural gas. The diesel engine operates unchanged, but from the outset, a measured quantity of natural gas is mixed with the air just before it enters the cylinder. This lean fuel-air mixture is then compressed to the same levels of the diesel engine, thus maintaining efficiency. Due to its resistance to compression ignition, the natural gas mixture does not ignite spontaneously under the compression. Instead, the Dual-FuelTM engine uses a small injection of diesel fuel, around 10% of the total energy of the fuel, to ignite the main charge of gas and air. This small “pilot” injection acts like a multitude of microscopic spark-plugs, setting off clean and efficient combustion of the lean gas-air mixture. The natural gas burns cleaner than diesel, resulting in much lower harmful emissions. With fuel-efficiency similar to that of the original diesel engine, CO2 emissions are reduced by up to 25% due the inherently low carbon content of natural gas. Although approximately 90% of the diesel is replaced by natural gas, a similar level of power is generated by the energy released from the gas combustion and the efficiency therefore remains similar to the original diesel engine. Clean Air Power is unaware of any dedicated natural gas trucks that can match a Dual-FuelTM truck for efficiency and performance. Thus, Dual-FuelTM technology enables the diesel engine to operate with comparable efficiency and power on natural gas, benefiting from lower harmful emissions, lower CO2 and lower fuel costs. http://www.cleanairpower.com/?p=dual_fuel
ross; i'm a little confused
there probably have been some changes to these engines over the years.catapiller would not warrenty parts or engines run on dual fuel unless the pistons had been changed out. the specific engines we used were 3408's,3412's and 3500 series. the 3508,8cly, developed 1000hp@1200rpm. i did note, that this company does incorperate an anti-knock system. that may be how they are operating with out modifications to engines.interesting to see how these engines have evolved. mind you, the engines we were using were 1980's vintage and older designs.i believe the 3500 series dates all the way back to ww11.it had a multitude of applications. one was marine. this engine could be set up to rotate clockwise or counterclockwise by simply reversing the cams and crank. it also could be set up with two units bolted end to end to take two 3508's and make into a 3516 thus having 16 cly.heavy beast though. interesting but does'nt have squat to do with sailing. s/v Que Pasa?
there probably have been some changes to these engines over the years.catapiller would not warrenty parts or engines run on dual fuel unless the pistons had been changed out. the specific engines we used were 3408's,3412's and 3500 series. the 3508,8cly, developed 1000hp@1200rpm. i did note, that this company does incorperate an anti-knock system. that may be how they are operating with out modifications to engines.interesting to see how these engines have evolved. mind you, the engines we were using were 1980's vintage and older designs.i believe the 3500 series dates all the way back to ww11.it had a multitude of applications. one was marine. this engine could be set up to rotate clockwise or counterclockwise by simply reversing the cams and crank. it also could be set up with two units bolted end to end to take two 3508's and make into a 3516 thus having 16 cly.heavy beast though. interesting but does'nt have squat to do with sailing. s/v Que Pasa?
Jim, I think these are purpose built engines.
It is doubtful that this could be a DIY modification in the after market. The link take you to a rather long article and just googling dual fuel diesel engines gets a ton of hits. I just C & P'd an excerpt from the linked article. And of course it has to do with sailing, just think what a great sailboat you would have to have to carry an engine like that.
By the by, What marina do you sail out of? I am across the river in Owen's.
It is doubtful that this could be a DIY modification in the after market. The link take you to a rather long article and just googling dual fuel diesel engines gets a ton of hits. I just C & P'd an excerpt from the linked article. And of course it has to do with sailing, just think what a great sailboat you would have to have to carry an engine like that.
By the by, What marina do you sail out of? I am across the river in Owen's.ross; my best quess is!
my suspisicion is that cat now has a lot more experience with the dual fuel issues. i just went to the cat corp site. my god they are still selling that same basic design. you could get it set up almost any way you wanted,with and without turbo charged and different pressures on the turbo. hense the wide variation of hp ratings. the suckers look exactly like a couple we had that were 35yrs old. i now keep it at arvid's. several yrs ago i kept it at owen's. end slip on 400dock. hell if i put one of these beasts in a 30 O'day it would sink it. s/v Que Pasa?
my suspisicion is that cat now has a lot more experience with the dual fuel issues. i just went to the cat corp site. my god they are still selling that same basic design. you could get it set up almost any way you wanted,with and without turbo charged and different pressures on the turbo. hense the wide variation of hp ratings. the suckers look exactly like a couple we had that were 35yrs old. i now keep it at arvid's. several yrs ago i kept it at owen's. end slip on 400dock. hell if i put one of these beasts in a 30 O'day it would sink it. s/v Que Pasa?
small world?
I don't remember the exact slip # but it was the last slip all the way out to the end, next to the wave fence on the right side. sounds like you may have my old slip. 2000 was about when we moved it to middle river for a few yrs. prior to going to new england, old lyme conn. for a couple of yrs. we are now back in hdg for a couple of yrs until some badly needed, and put off work is completed. its a bitch but she is still is on the hard. we fell in love with new england sailing weather. the first yr we were there one afternoon i was bitching about the boat speed being down to 3knts. my wife put it all in perspective. she said i don't believe you. your bitchen about 3knts. boatspeed and on the chesie we'd be happy with 3 knots wind speed. esp in aug. Que Pasa?
I don't remember the exact slip # but it was the last slip all the way out to the end, next to the wave fence on the right side. sounds like you may have my old slip. 2000 was about when we moved it to middle river for a few yrs. prior to going to new england, old lyme conn. for a couple of yrs. we are now back in hdg for a couple of yrs until some badly needed, and put off work is completed. its a bitch but she is still is on the hard. we fell in love with new england sailing weather. the first yr we were there one afternoon i was bitching about the boat speed being down to 3knts. my wife put it all in perspective. she said i don't believe you. your bitchen about 3knts. boatspeed and on the chesie we'd be happy with 3 knots wind speed. esp in aug. Que Pasa?
Update: Propane Powered Everything.
Thanks for the replies, altho I don't see where all the talk about diesels or slips in God-knows-where is really on the topic. (On a motorcycle forum I am active on, they call that thread hijacking...) Anyway, some good points here, esp. about the outboard being two-cycle. Decided to KISS- outboard will stay gas, alky stove to be replaced with propane, stove and grill to remain powered by removable canisters, which are self-sealing when removed from stove/grill, thus making them pretty safe. Plan is to keep them removed except when being used.
Thanks for the replies, altho I don't see where all the talk about diesels or slips in God-knows-where is really on the topic. (On a motorcycle forum I am active on, they call that thread hijacking...) Anyway, some good points here, esp. about the outboard being two-cycle. Decided to KISS- outboard will stay gas, alky stove to be replaced with propane, stove and grill to remain powered by removable canisters, which are self-sealing when removed from stove/grill, thus making them pretty safe. Plan is to keep them removed except when being used.
- Status