problems with cracks on Hunter 216

[Jackdaw]

Dave,

Here is another way to look at this.

Image that you and I are are in identical 216s with a crew of two. Sailing a race to windward in 12 knots of breeze.

Like any boat, the 216 will have an optimal angle and correlated speed (its polar angle) that describes its best True Wind Angle and Boatspeed for a given true wind speed. It optimizes the boats Velocity Made Good (or VMG) speed towards the mark. We both know this because we're good racers.

Lets say that for the 216 and 12 knots TWS, it is 45 degrees, at 5 knots boatspeed.

The race starts, and we both point our boats at 45 and trim in hard for maximum power. And we both get knocked over due to pressure. The boats heal to 20 degrees and slow. So what do we do???

Well, me and my crew HIKE and increase our righting moment. This extra lever allows the rig to handle the extra pressure, and the boat flattens. With full power in the rig, we head upwind on our polar angle (45) and at our rated speed (5knots).

If you do not, you have two choices. You can lower the angle of attack (depower) your sails, or you can turn down slightly and ease. Both of these methods take you off your polars, in angle, speed or both. There is really nothing else you can do; no magic. Either option makes you slower to windward.

If you lower the AOA on the sail, you depower and you slow.
If you turn down and ease, you might sail as fast, but the lower angle kills your VMG.

Thats racing 101.

A million things in a particular race might change the result, skills, tactics, luck etc. But all else being equal the boat that hikes harder wins.

This does not factor that hiking is harder on the 216 due to lack of lifelines, hand and foot holds. In many ways the 216 is like the J22 in that regard. Nevertheless if you do hike, it will be faster.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

I am not going to debate this any more and let this thread die a natural death. Lets agree on that one.

 

[Jackdaw]

I am not going to debate this any more and let this thread die a natural death. Lets agree on that one.

Deal. I already agreed to that once before, and you jumped back in! ;^)

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

we both did but concur let's have a hot totty on ending this thread. I will post the photos of the Hunter 320 with mast up over the bridge launch when I find them.

 

[Jackdaw]

we both did but concur let's have a hot totty on ending this thread. I will post the photos of the Hunter 320 with mast up over the bridge launch when I find them.

Deal. Cheers!

 

[Bill Perry]

Hello,

Yesterday, as I was washing the Hunter 216 and getting ready to launch today, The last area I washed was the left side and to my dismay I discovered a crack that started at the chain plate bolts and continued down the side all the way to the trailer bunk board. (It was late and the ground was soaked so I didn't climb underneath to see if it came out the other side of the board) I have no idea if the crack goes through all the layers nor do I really understand the actual make up of the layers. I was and am really dismayed.

 

[Bill Perry]

I hit the wrong key by mistake and did not finish my message.

Does anyone know if there is any way to get Hunter to take care of this or buy back the boat or will insurance take care of it or anything else?? It is obviously a design flaw or if as someone has suggested a material flaw, what is the liability of the ABS source? If there were a dangerous structural flaw in an automobile, eventually the car company would be held responsible. I realise that a boat company is not as big as a car company but with a crack this long, if I had not noticed it, seemingly the boat could crack in half under the stress of sailing in a good breeze.
Thank you for any input that you may provide. (I did come home and have a martini but it didn't help!)

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

call your insurance carrier and ask that question. The old Hunter is gone and no one will buy back the boat. Post some photos so we can take a look. With any crack, drill at the end of the crack a 1/8 inch hole to keep it from extending. Drill about a quarter inch in only. In layman's terms this is a sheet of molded plastic over construction foam. WE NEED PHOTOS

 

[Jackdaw]

The old Hunter is gone and no one will buy back the boat.

Not that the OLD Hunter did when they had the chance. They just decided to do nothing proactive and allow it to ruin people's sailing/boat-owning experiences for decades. Honestly, shame on them.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Sorry to bust your bubble but Eddie Breeden did replace quite a few hulls even after the warranty ran out. It was not the fault of Hunter but the mfg. of the plastics which is why without Hunter's knowledge, the formula was changed a time or two. Most of the boats never had cracks.

 

[Jackdaw]

Sorry to bust your bubble but Eddie Breeden did replace quite a few hulls even after the warranty ran out. It was not the fault of Hunter but the mfg. of the plastics which is why without Hunter's knowledge, the formula was changed a time or two. Most of the boats never had cracks.

You're not bursting my bubble at all.

Of course I know they replaced some of the hulls. And I know the story behind the plastic. But the simple truth that these people were HUNTERS customers, but BASFs. And Hunter knew it was likely that MANY more hulls would fail but took no action. Other manufacture have been in similar positions and hit the bullet; taking a huge charge to make things right and keep faith with their customers. That was not Hunter's priority; and it still shows.

You're defending the indefensible.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

It is obvious you do not know the full story what Hunter did. Hunter "went the distance" on those boats and you sound like it was every one which is far from the truth as many are fine. Then you forget there is a warranty period which Hunter went above and beyond that with these boats. What I find amazing that many people think sailboats should have a lifetime warranty and that is not the case. I have yet to find life time warranties with homes, cars and so forth from the manufacturerersunless you want to buy an aftermarket policy to cover that. Hunter stopped building those boats for that reason and it has been many years ago.. In addition, they had no idea that this was going to occur and you maybe have implied that. Finally, Hunter Marine as we know it is gone and you seem to forget that. I resent the inference too. Maybe you should stick with the larger boats. The folks at Hunter were good people and I will defend them as I knew what they had done and you certainly don't.

 

[Jackdaw]

It is obvious you do not know the full story what Hunter did. Hunter "went the distance" on those boats and you sound like it was every one which is far from the truth as many are fine. Then you forget there is a warranty period which Hunter went above and beyond that with these boats. What I find amazing that many people think sailboats should have a lifetime warranty and that is not the case. I have yet to find life time warranties with homes, cars and so forth from the manufacturerersunless you want to buy an aftermarket policy to cover that. Hunter stopped building those boats for that reason and it has been many years ago.. In addition, they had no idea that this was going to occur and you maybe have implied that. Finally, Hunter Marine as we know it is gone and you seem to forget that. I resent the inference too. Maybe you should stick with the larger boats. The folks at Hunter were good people and I will defend them as I knew what they had done and you certainly don't.

Dave,

You are taking this WAY to personally. And I don't understand what part you resent.

Of course we are talking about the OLD Hunter. And yes it was a problem with a supplier's product. Nevertheless Hunter chose (perhaps for reasons that would have affected the viability of the company) a path that would later leave many people with broken boats. They knew it. That is a statement of fact. As a dealer, if you didn't know it it means that Hunter spun the problem in way that made their reaction seem reasonable. This is typical. My company has dealers and we tell our dealers what we want them to know and tell their customers. I simply do not accept that they did all they they could have. Want a quick option? They could have given EVERY APC owner a transferable 15 year warranty on hull cracks. Done. Other have done like things. But they didn't. It costs money, they would have to taken a charge for that. Maybe they could not afford it. Reasonable. But let's not confuse that with doing the right thing.

BTW I used to own small boats, and still own a 25 footer. And I have three friends with cracked APC boats who would disagree that Hunter 'went the distance'. If you want, I'll put them in touch with you and you can explain that to them. I'm not sure if they'll get it.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Personally I have owned small sailboats but as a dealer for many years, I was the largest stocking dealer in the world having sailed, raced, sold and repaired them which is why I have more experience and knowledge than you sir plus the fact of my involvement with manufacturers. However, in my books, you went too far with the negative comments regarding Hunter Marine or the implications of the language that I read. Yes there are things I know about all the manufactures mostly good but some otherwise but they try to do their best and the fact that Hunter did more than most manufacturers says it all. When you attacked Hunter Marine, you attacked me and this is all I am going to say, reflect what you say in the future as it reflects on you. Have a great day.

 

[Jackdaw]

Personally I have owned small sailboats but as a dealer for many years, I was the largest stocking dealer in the world having sailed, raced, sold and repaired them which is why I have more experience and knowledge than you sir plus the fact of my involvement with manufacturers. However, in my books, you went too far with the negative comments regarding Hunter Marine or the implications of the language that I read. Yes there are things I know about all the manufactures mostly good but some otherwise but they try to do their best and the fact that Hunter did more than most manufacturers says it all. When you attacked Hunter Marine, you attacked me and this is all I am going to say, reflect what you say in the future as it reflects on you. Have a great day.

Dave,

As you're probably aware, I'm pretty careful about how I write; both here and professionally. As such I've taken great pains to state what are facts and not opinions about this situation. The reason the comments seemed 'negative about Hunter' is because it WAS and IS a negative situation of their own making. If you think I've made a factual error in any statement I've made please point it out.

Clearly the roots of the problem were not of their making. I get that. But they DID take a path though the problem that left people with broken boats. They knew that was going to happen. Former 'largest dealer in the world' or not, I really don't see how you can defend that.

I do find it a bit ironic that you're having this type of reaction in what has to be at least the 20th thread created here on SBO alone about 216 hull cracks.

 

[Bill Perry]

Hunter 216 cracks

I am not very well versed in some things and I have really struggled with getting these pics of my boat. To summarize, it appears that the crack starts at the upper chain plate bolt and runs until it is about an inch from the keel well. There are some ink marks that I put on to make sure the cracks were visible and one to show the end of the crack at the bottom. I spoke to a service manager at a marina and he said he had repaired some much smaller cracks on FJ15's and he suggested using a product from West Systems that he believes is much superior to the plexus. His concern was using Krylon paint underwater. I really welcome all the input that i can get. this looks like a disaster to me and i cannot imagine why Hunter would not want to make it right. I have not contacted them yet to be fair. Thanks in advance.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Bill;

Hunter Marine is gone. It was bought from bankruptcy and the new owner is not going to address that nor is there any warranty as the boats are way out of warranty. If you want some help here, I repaired enough of these boats and I will be glad to help but I will need a phone number which to call. If not, there is information already in the archives.

 

[Bill Perry]

I have the crack repaired. Does anyone have any of the gray and blue striping tape that I could purchase a foot or so of?

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

See if the forum store has it in stock. If not, look at West Marine or other marine stores that sell it for the color. If not, look at specific automotive stores selling paint and car striping which is what I use to do and could generally find it. Not sure if you contacted Marlow Hunter if they could refer to the specific manuafacturer and mfg. number but ask the forum store first and specifically ask for AL. He use to work therer.

 

[Bill Perry]

Dave,
Thanks for the advice. The forum store has tape in 150 foot lengths for $40 but I was hoping to find someone who had some laying around that would sell a couple of feet of it. I'm not in a hurry as the boat is in the water and I will get the cosmetics done after the season.