Prime Suspect II

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Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
I think I used this post title back in the Chesapeake, thus the “II”. Maybe it should even be, “III” or “IV”. I won’t take time to search back through the archives right now.

I went in this morning with a clearer head despite a night of semi-sleep and found the mechanic and the service manager in the office. I told the mechanic that I had complete faith in him but, with so much on the table, I wanted a third set of eyes on the head gasket before proceeding. We all adjourned to the boat.

The service manager agreed that there were none of the usual signs of head gasket failure. There is one spot with a slight difference in the shine of the copper gasket but it is so faint as to be on the verge of wishful thinking. However, all around the critical boundary of the low pressure oil return next to the water passage openings, are remains of a mysterious black compound that looks like it might be RTV. The proper compound to be used with the head gasket is clearly visible elsewhere and under the black gunk.

It looks very much to all three of us as if someone dealt with this issue before and the black stuff was a Band-Aid fix. There was not enough clearance to remove the head without withdrawing the studs first, something that the mechanic did very skillfully with the two jammed nuts method. It would have been very tempting for a less skilled mechanic to slide the head up as far as he could, smear in the RTV (or, whatever it is) with a stick, and then torque the head back down.

So, we haven’t found a smoking gun but we certainly have one lying next to the victim with the same number of bullets missing as are in the body. It isn’t conclusive yet that it’s the fatal gun and we haven’t done a ballistics test yet, that’s going to cost me another grand or so. However, it’s considerably lowered my anxiety level.

The parts will be here tomorrow. The engine will go back together Thursday. I’m then going to do a lot of power boating around the area close enough to get back to Pirates Cove if there are any further problems. This is the place to be for any trouble. It's a second generation family run business, just as is the best commercial shipyard I've ever known, up the river to the right. I've been around a bit in my 40 years in the boat business both professionally and for fun. These folks get my highest recommendation.

Once I’ve got about six short oil changes done with no sign of water, I should be on my way south.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,780
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
I'm keeping my fingers AND toes crossed for you. Good luck. I've been reading a lot of mysteries recently, so your analogy is a great one!
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,085
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Wow, it sure makes a diffence to run across some good people! Good luck with the outcome. You are starting to make dodging bullets an art form!
 
Apr 22, 2001
497
Hunter 420 Norfolk, VA
Once I’ve got about six short oil changes done with no sign of water, I should be on my way south.
We're scrambling to get ready for you down here ... It's just taking a lot of time to line up the band, the cheerleaders, the appropriate adult beverages ...
and the mechanics :).

Just teasing... have a great run South ... and we WILL have the adult beverages (at least) waiting for you to celebrate getting to the 'mid point'.
 

BobT

.
Sep 29, 2008
239
Gulfstar 37 North East River, Chesapeake Bay
Here's hoping the culprit is in hand.

bonus points:
What was Holmes' pal Watson's first name?
 

xcyz

.
Jan 22, 2008
174
Hunter 376
Head Resurfacing?

Roger,
I'm not sure with your engine type but when ever I blew a head gasket on my Datsun 510, I always had my head resurfaced as it may be warped. Are you having this done to your head?

 
Dec 8, 2006
1,085
Oday 26 Starr, SC
hope it is the fix

I think I used this post title back in the Chesapeake, thus the “II”. Maybe it should even be, “III” or “IV”. I won’t take time to search back through the archives right now.

I went in this morning with a clearer head despite a night of semi-sleep and found the mechanic and the service manager in the office. I told the mechanic that I had complete faith in him but, with so much on the table, I wanted a third set of eyes on the head gasket before proceeding. We all adjourned to the boat.

The service manager agreed that there were none of the usual signs of head gasket failure. There is one spot with a slight difference in the shine of the copper gasket but it is so faint as to be on the verge of wishful thinking. However, all around the critical boundary of the low pressure oil return next to the water passage openings, are remains of a mysterious black compound that looks like it might be RTV. The proper compound to be used with the head gasket is clearly visible elsewhere and under the black gunk.

It looks very much to all three of us as if someone dealt with this issue before and the black stuff was a Band-Aid fix. There was not enough clearance to remove the head without withdrawing the studs first, something that the mechanic did very skillfully with the two jammed nuts method. It would have been very tempting for a less skilled mechanic to slide the head up as far as he could, smear in the RTV (or, whatever it is) with a stick, and then torque the head back down.

So, we haven’t found a smoking gun but we certainly have one lying next to the victim with the same number of bullets missing as are in the body. It isn’t conclusive yet that it’s the fatal gun and we haven’t done a ballistics test yet, that’s going to cost me another grand or so. However, it’s considerably lowered my anxiety level.

The parts will be here tomorrow. The engine will go back together Thursday. I’m then going to do a lot of power boating around the area close enough to get back to Pirates Cove if there are any further problems. This is the place to be for any trouble. It's a second generation family run business, just as is the best commercial shipyard I've ever known, up the river to the right. I've been around a bit in my 40 years in the boat business both professionally and for fun. These folks get my highest recommendation.

Once I’ve got about six short oil changes done with no sign of water, I should be on my way south.
- - - - // - - - -

Roger,

Good luck on the fix.

Do you plan to take that Cruiser's Diesel servicing course in Florida? Become a certified diesel mechanic?

Does this great service Marina have a web site?

Are you taking pictures of the reinstall?

Ah, go on shore and take an evening walk.

Ed K
at the Lighthouse in Little River.
http://lightkeepersmarina.com/

Also consider stopping in Calabash, NC this time. You anchored just off the channel into Calabash. Great shimp known as calabash shimp. Save a few dollars for a shrimp dinner.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabash,_North_Carolina
 

Attachments

Oct 4, 2011
58
Want A Hunter! 33 Seneca Lake
I think culprit is Captain Mustard with the wrench, in the engine room.
 
Oct 2, 2008
3,807
Pearson/ 530 Strafford, NH
I think culprit is Captain Mustard with the wrench, in the engine room.
Now that's funny.

We're scrambling to get ready for you down here ... It's just taking a lot of time to line up the band, the cheerleaders, the appropriate adult beverages ...:).
Well that might be a good reason to get to Norfolk.

Good luck Roger.

All U Get
 
May 24, 2004
470
Hunter 33.5 Portsmouth, RI
Glad that it's working out well for you Roger, given your engine problem. I have been at that marina since spring of 1999. I have never had any real issues with any work done there. They are indeed knowledgeable and willing to help out when you have an issue, even when it's advice on work that you are doing yourself. I have been very satisfied with the diesel mechanic, the yard foreman, Dave, and the family operator, Brandon. They are all good people as well as the rest of their staff in the yard and office.

Dick, S/V Puffin, K-15
 
Last edited by a moderator:

TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,759
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
Your engine seems to have a personality Roger.

I've enjoyed both your ICW and Maine adventure, and engine saga.

One question I wonder about the engine, and it's not directly related to your latest problem. Do you know how strong the compression is on this engine? I too have an older engine design, a Nissan SD22 diesel(I've had 2 actually). It too has an open crankcase breather.

On these engines(Nissan diesels), the breather is more prone to dripping oil as compression drops due to wear. This is due simply to more gases going by the wearing rings into the crankcase. Not that much of a problem with an open breather(except for the occasional cleaning up which can be annoying), but blow by increases with ring wear and loss of compression.

But with your added trap, is this constricting some of this blow-by and directing it to other outlets like your dipstick?

I had dripping in my last worn SD22. The present one has strong compression. The stock breather, a 1" vent(no air constriction) channels gases upward and catches any oil mist in a mess that is vented at the top. Any oil collected on the mess simply drips, due to gravity, back into the block.

Not a drop seems to escape on my present engine. Is your added catch basin constricting the engines ventilation? And is some loss of compression adding to this problem? At any rate, I'm rooting for you and the engine to get back on your adventure.
 
May 24, 2004
7,131
CC 30 South Florida
Seems to me that to slap the the head back on with just a new gasket is wishful thinking. Yes, a new head gasket may solve the problem for a while but if the cause is not corrected it will resurface. RGDavis suggests that the head be resurfaced and I concur especially if you may have found some abnormality in the oil passages at the head block joint. This would mean removing the valves so a whole head rebuild would be in order. It can be costly but will enhance engine compression and perhaps resolve your problem once and for all. If you were back in the Chesapeake I would have said just replace the the head gasket and get her home, but you are now at the point of embarking in a new trip.
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
Seems to me that to slap the the head back on with just a new gasket is wishful thinking.
I woke up early this morning with almost exactly the same thoughts and went in to talk with them first thing this morning. Your post could have been a transcript.

The mechanic cleaned up the head and put a straightedge across it. Crude but no indication of any gross problem. He points out that there are many heads he would resurface but this one is a very deep and massive chunk if iron so not prone to warping. Torquing the heads is very difficult with my installation and may not have been done at the proper time after the engine was put in service.

They would be happy to send the head out for resurfacing but it would mean my being here another 1 - 2 weeks and and nearly double the cost. The pre-combustion chambers have to be pressed out of this head and new ones obtained to do a resurface.

There is still a possibility that we'll put the engine back together and find out that the actual leak point is the seals at the bottom of the cylinder liners. This is basically a 1 - 2 grand diagnosis which will hopefully also be a cure. It will be painful enough finding out that we were wrong about the head gasket. Twice as much for the diagnosis would put me into rebuild territory.

I've been cleaning parts for much of the day and this engine is in marvelous condition. I agree with the mechanic that it looks like it had never been run before I got it in 2005. If it should turn out to be the liner seals, I'll haul here and have them pull it for a rebuild. In that case, I would go the full monty on the head.

It's all a crap shoot.
 

Bob J.

.
Apr 14, 2009
773
Sabre 28 NH
I don't know Roger.

The way this engine saga continues when you look at money out of pocket after this go around, you're probably getting close to half of what a new motor in the crate would cost you.

I'd hate to see you have another problem after this & get so disgusted you sell the boat & walk away.

Running for cover now :)
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
Is your added catch basin constricting the engines ventilation?
I doubt it. I blew back through the crankcase breather line today and it was like blowing into a 3 foot length of plain rubber hose. The trap simply gets on liquid out of the line immediately instead of its having to be blown all the way through.

Haven't done compression test. It would be a waste of money based on how this engine starts and runs. Now that we've seen the insides, it's clear that it didn't have many hours on it before I got it. The PO must have sailed a lot. The mechanic said he would have guessed it to be a 5 - 10 year old engine if he didn't know the model and history.

We can see the cylinder walls now and they have the perfect surface finish and hone. This engine didn't burn any detectable oil between changes until sometime last winter. Oil consumption is now "normal".

Thinking back, I'm pretty sure I heard the moment when the crankcase oil level was raised by the water high enough to reach the crank and have it start beating the water and oil into froth. There was a very slight bump and then drop in rpm just long enough for me to look up and around. It then sounded normal until the oil alarm went off. I though I had just cut up a bit of floating weed something else with the prop. The dipstick was then pushed out and the water pump oil seal pushed out and the engine quickly began pumping the oil out the dip stick. The breather was probably plugged at that point simply with the emulsion against the opening on the inside. The connection is rather low on this engine. Only a little bit of the grey stuff came through to show up in the liquid trap along with a little salt water.
 

BobT

.
Sep 29, 2008
239
Gulfstar 37 North East River, Chesapeake Bay
Subtext: Sherlock Holmes & Dr. Watson.

He is John Watson in the recent film, but in "The Man with the Twisted Lip" his wife calls him James.
I was shocked as well.
 
May 24, 2004
7,131
CC 30 South Florida
Make sure the head gets properly torqued to specs but just as important is to re-torque the head after some 30-50 hours of running time.
 
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