Precision 21: Light wind foresail recommendations wanted.

[Ach616]

Hello folks. We have a newly aquired P21 sailing on inland lakes in Saskatchewan, Canada. She sails well in winds 6 knots plus, and when the winds drop off, the main and 100% RF jib can't supply enough power to make decent headway. I'd like to know what P21 owners have had good experience with larger foresails. Genoa or Spinnaker? Thanks! Al

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

With a larger genoa would help and should the wind pick up, you can furl the sail back
easily. Max heel should be between 12-14 degrees with control of sails. What furling system do you have. Former retired Precision dealer

 

[JRT]

We are lake sailors in Alabama and getting any wind to be a consistent direction for any length of time drove us to a Code 0 for our Catalina 310. On our old O'Day 25 we had hank on sails and an old drifter that was great for low wind days. Call a few sail lofts and chat about your sailing area, needs and conditions, they should help point you in the right direction.

 

[Ach616]

The boat has a CDI 'FF2' headsail furler at the moment. It appears the original owner may have modified the original jib to use with the furler. I've got a partial photo of it if that helps.

 

[AaronD]

We are lake sailors in Alabama and getting any wind to be a consistent direction for any length of time drove us to a Code 0 for our Catalina 310. On our old O'Day 25 we had hank on sails and an old drifter that was great for low wind days. Call a few sail lofts and chat about your sailing area, needs and conditions, they should help point you in the right direction.

on the Code 0. Best modification (of many) on our 22-footer. Not cheap, but worth looking into.

 

[DrJudyB]

A bigger Genoa will help mostly for upwind angles, but not as much for downwind angles. You can pole it out for downwind angles, but the boat speed will be really slow in winds under 5 knots. It’ll be better than a jib, but still very slow. To use the Genoa, you will need to put a long Genoa track on the side deck and run the sheets outside the shrouds. The geometry of the sheeting angles is the constraining factor in the design of the sail, if you put the tracks in the right place we could probably build a 135 that can reef to a 110. It wouldn’t point as well as the dedicated small jib.

A “narrow” cruising code zero would help with sailing from close reaching to broad reaching angles. It’s the most versatile. You’d use it form 2-3 knots to maybe 8-10 kts, depending on the design. You use it when the apparent wind was approx on the beam and higher. Generally, it will sail at least 5 degrees lower than the Genoa and 5-10 degrees lower than the jib.
A cruising C0 would fly fas high as about 50 degrees true/35 degrees and as deep as 135-140 degrees true/100 degrees apparent wind angles. Thats lower than the jib/Genoa and higher than an asymm spinnaker could.

A code zero requires a special furler. and you’d have to install a small bow sprit because the bow pulpit is in the way of the furler. Or modify the bow pulpit to get it out of the way.

(A racing C0 isn’t what you want. That’s a different animal with a midgirth of 75%. A cruising C0 would have a midgirth between 50 % and 75%. But if you race, your rating will take a big hit with a midgirth of less than 75%)

Finally, there’s the all purpose asymm cruising spinnaker. It’s best described as a deep reacher. It will give you a lot more power for sailing deeper angles. You would use it when the apparent wind is appox on the beam and further aft. It will not sail upwind angles. It will sail as deep as approx 155 degrees true. If you use a snuffer/sock to launch and douse it, you don’t need to modify the boat.

(This is only a conceptual explanation. The actual true wind angles the sails work in vary from one boat design to another. The all purpose asymm and Cruising code 0 can be tweaked to be optimized for your boat)

The combo of smaller jib and Crusing Code zero works well for a lot of cruisers. It’s a really fun combo when the winds are light and it adds miles to you cruising range. On some boats you can fly the jib and the code at the same time if you trim carefully, for a turbo charge.

Judy B
Retired sailmaker

 

[DrJudyB]

on the Code 0. Best modification (of many) on our 22-footer. Not cheap, but worth looking into.

Told yah you’d like it!

 

[JRT]

@DrJudyB is great advice. I ordered a turtle bag that clips to the railing at the bow and let's me connect it up while in the bag and launch by openning the bag. Dropping into the bag does require me to be on the bow stuffing the sail in it. I'm comfortable on the lake being on the bow as we don't worry about waves like in the ocean or larger bays. The bag for my sail size was only $180.

 

[Ach616]

Getting upwind is doable most times on Lake Diefenbaker. We sail out from the town of Elbow. prevailing wind is NW and SE when rain is coming. Our usual problem is the return trip with the wind on the aft quarters. So perhaps an asymmetric spinnaker is the best for those situations where a lengthy reach to the marina is planned.

 

[DrJudyB]

Getting upwind is doable most times on Lake Diefenbaker. We sail out from the town of Elbow. prevailing wind is NW and SE when rain is coming. Our usual problem is the return trip with the wind on the aft quarters. So perhaps an asymmetric spinnaker is the best for those situations where a lengthy reach to the marina is planned.

True, the asymm Is optimized for really deep angles to the true wind, especially if you race.

but... remember, if you go fast enough, the apparent wind goes way forward of the beam, even on a run. An AP asymm that sails deep angles will collapse if the wind goes much above the beam.

A cruising CO is more versatile because it can go from a close reach to a broad reach. You can gybe your way downwind pretty fast, with twice the boat speed as You can with a small jib.

If you’re not used to huge headsails that can power the boat twice the velocity as small ones in light wind, it’s hard to imagine how far forward the apparent wind goes. It’s hard to get used to it. When you are broad or deep reaching with an asymm or code sail, the apparent wind feels like you’re sailing higher than a beam reach.

The sail doesn’t care what the true wind angle is. It’s designed to fly in an apparent wind range. If you make it big expand powerful enough, you are always reaching or pointing.

Think of the America Cup boats. They go so fast that they are always pointing, even when sailing almost dead down wind.

Judy B

 

[DrJudyB]

Btw, I Generally recommend a narrower “Code 50-55” for a boat like the Precision 21, with a fractional rig with non-overlapping headsail. That means I’d design it to sail slightly higher wind angles, because it really lacks power to go upwind. It would be about twice the size of the 100-110% jib, and about 2/3 as big as a full supine spinnaker

For a mast head rig with an overlapping Genoa’s, like a Catalina 22, I would generally a wider “code 65” with more area and optimized for slightly deeper angles. The bigger foresail or overlapping Genoa on the mast head rig can be used for pointing in light winds. The code 65 would be about 3/4 as big as a full size spinnaker.

But if your lake is really long and really narrow then it might be a special case.....

Judy B

 

[JRT]

@DrJudyB write up is exactly why I went code 0 vs asymmetric.

 

[Meriachee]

Our neighbour with the code 0 can kick our butt sometimes while we are in the phone trying to order up some wind. Such is the case with these northern lakes.

 

[Ach616]

It is starting to sound like a code xx foresail is a better all around option for where we sail. the wiki page for the lake is:
Hello folks. Lake Diefenbaker - Wikipedia
Maximum width 3.7 miles, average width is around 2 miles, and length up to 140 miles.
Questions presuming we go with the code xx:
1. Can the existing RF jib be used/not used when the code xx is flying?
2. What impact/changes are required for the standing rigging, esp the backstay?
3. Where/how is the new forestay attached to the mast?
4. Has anyone added a sprit extension to the bow of a P21/18/23 before?
5. Who would we approach to design/build/supply the code xx components?
6. What measurements should be provided to the designer?

Thanks !

 

[DrJudyB]

The boat has a CDI 'FF2' headsail furler at the moment. It appears the original owner may have modified the original jib to use with the furler. I've got a partial photo of it if that helps.

In such light winds as shown I. Your picture, a larger Genoa that’s strong enough to furl down to a 100% will be too heavy to fly without constantly collapsing, especially with the extra weight of a UV cover on it.

For winds less than 4-5 mph, you’d need to use 1-2 oz cloth nylon or polyester or laminate sailcloth, which isn’t strong enough to use in the same speed winded that you’d use for a jib.

code sails and spinnakers aren’t just bigger than Genoa’s, they are built with more powerful drafts and much lighter sailcloth.

 

[Meriachee]

you can fly a 0 from a tack on the deck, or you can go all the way to a top down solution.
We fly our asym from a top down furler, and the kite is way, way bigger than anybody would have recommended, but it was designed for use in no wind - 10kts. Period.
Our wind conditions are exactly the same as yours, except we get them one day before you

 

[DrJudyB]

It is starting to sound like a code xx foresail is a better all around option for where we sail. the wiki page for the lake is:
Hello folks. Lake Diefenbaker - Wikipedia
Maximum width 3.7 miles, average width is around 2 miles, and length up to 140 miles.
Questions presuming we go with the code xx:
1. Can the existing RF jib be used/not used when the code xx is flying?
2. What impact/changes are required for the standing rigging, esp the backstay?
3. Where/how is the new forestay attached to the mast?
4. Has anyone added a sprit extension to the bow of a P21/18/23 before?
5. Who would we approach to design/build/supply the code xx components?
6. What measurements should be provided to the designer?

Thanks !

Answers to your questions:

1. Usually you don’t use the jib at the same time as the code sail. Usually you furl it up and hoist the new sail in front of on a separate halyard and furler.
2. You don’t need to change the back stay at all.
3. You don’t need an additional forestay. You need to install a spinnaker halyard on the mast about 6-12 inches above the existing forestay. You also need a place to attach the furler drum at the bottom at least 8- 30 or more inches in front of the existing Genoa furler,
4. Yes. There are bow sprit kits you can buy.
5. A sailmaker who knows their stuff about codes and awho can help you put together the bow sprit, furler and spinnaker halyard and turning blocks. Or a sailmaker and a competent rigger. Not a one size fits all sail reseller. You need expert advice on the sail and the rigging.
6. Don’t bother to measure until you hire a sailmaker. They don’t need your measurements to give you a estimate of cost. Once you select the sail maker, they will give you detailed instructions to follow or come out to measure the boat for you.

Honestly, the next step is to talk to a sailmaker and rigger who can answer all your questions. They can quote you the price for the sail and furler and bowsprit kit and new halyard etc.

Off the top off my head, you’ll need at least the following kind of gear in addition to the sail itself. A furler will run you $450-$950. The bow sprit kit will cost you $500 - 800. Plus you’ll need $150-300 or more for 2-3 blocks, spinn sheets and spinnaker halyard.

...plus the sail. A sail with a high quality, anti torque luff line with good thimbles properly seized in will cost at least $800, again, that’s off the top of my head.

Off the top of my head, It’s going to cost you upwards of $2000 -$3000 by the time it’s all been said and done. If that’s too much for your budget, please don’t waste the sailmakers’ and riggers’ time. It takes hours to work up a price quote for a package like your talking about.

@AaronD and @JRT - what was your total cost on your code zero projects? That will help @Ach616 decide if it’s worth the time to research further.

Judy B
Retired sailmaker and hardware distributor who has given away a fortune in free consultations to tire kickers who pretended they were serious about buying.

 

[DrJudyB]

you can fly a 0 from a tack on the deck, or you can go all the way to a top down solution.
We fly our asym from a top down furler, and the kite is way, way bigger than anybody would have recommended, but it was designed for use in no wind - 10kts. Period.
Our wind conditions are exactly the same as yours, except we get them one day before you

@Meriachee

How do you fly a code sail on your boat? Are you talking about a code on a furler, or an asymm with a snuffer sock? Your picture shows a bow sprit with an asymm that’s not on a furler.

You don’t need a bowsprit or a specialized furler to fly an asymm. But You almost always need a bowsprit/modified pulpit and a special,furler for a code zero. So a code zero ends up costing at least $500 to $1000 or more, compared to an asymm with a snuffer sock.

As afar as I know, You can’t usually tack a code sail on a furler to the deck. The bow pulpit is almost always in the way unless it is a new design boat designed specifically to accommodate a code zero. The pulpit on newer boats has no top rail. You will need at least 8” of separation from the Genoa furler for a code furler.; more is betepter. AFAIK , you need to either modify the pulpit or add a sprit to a traditional bow and bow pulpit.

The loads on a code zero are about twice as big as the loads on an asymm . So the furler hardware needs to be twice as strong. And the bowsprit needs to be twice as strong too, Or the bow sprit needs to be half as long. Blocks need to be stronger too. Etc.

Judy.

.

 

[Meriachee]

@Meriachee

How do you fly a code sail on your boat? Are you talking about a code on a furler, or an asymm with a snuffer sock? Your picture shows a bow sprit with an asymm that’s not on a furler.

You don’t need a bowsprit or a specialized furler to fly an asymm. But You almost always need a bowsprit/modified pulpit and a special,furler for a code zero. So a code zero ends up costing at least $500 to $1000 or more, compared to an asymm with a snuffer sock.

As afar as I know, You can’t usually tack a code sail on a furler to the deck. The bow pulpit is almost always in the way and there’s not enough separation from the Genoa furler for a code furler. AFAIK , you need to either modify the pulpit or add a sprit.

The loads on a code zero are about twice as big as the loads on an asymm . So the furler hardware needs to be twice as strong. And the bowsprit needs to be twice as strong too, Or the bow sprit needs to be half as long. Blocks need to be stronger too. Etc.

Judy.

.

True on all points. For clarity, that kite is now on a top down, on that pole. Its been darn near impossible to get pix or video of it since it was completed.
I dont have a code sail, but my neighbour does.
Im partial to A versions.
A 0 can be flown like a hank on jib. Or with a turtle bag. Not that its the best way, but not everybody wants to blow the retirement on a top down. I thought they were expensive when i started building mine, they're almost double since then. Yikes.

 

[AaronD]

@AaronD and @JRT - what was your total cost on your code zero projects? That will help @Ach616 decide if it’s worth the time to research further.
...

My total cost was ~$1700. It's itemized in my first sprit / C0 post, with more details in the ~1 page of posts following that.

I made my own sprit. The cost would be considerably higher if buying a commercial A-frame sprit (like the Trogear), but might be comparable or only slightly higher if you could use a Selden sprit instead (I couldn't fit the Selden in around my anchor, but you might manage).