Prada cup on TV

May 17, 2004
5,032
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
During the live broadcast the commentators commented on what they “thought” happened to force the boat over AFTER splashdown. The comment was the main got pinned against a backstay that wasn’t released. it might have pinned but I’m not sure how far the main can be sheeted out anyway.
I thought Ken Reed’s analysis made sense and that the main looked hung up. But Hutchinson hasn’t said anything about that in any of his statements. If the reports are correct that the boat crashing back to the water is what caused the hole then the capsize is pretty irrelevant- the race was lost before that point. The water rushing in may have even been part of the cause of the capsize.
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,040
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
....but I’m not sure how far the main can be sheeted out anyway.
I'm not either but it can't be that far. The traveler track ends before the well for the crew. In fact I think part of the crew crosses behind the main and wouldn't be able to if the main were out over the well.
 
Sep 22, 2018
1,869
Hunter 216 Kingston
I think your right about the the flooding of the hull was a big factor. I’ve watched the replay a few times and there was something of a hesitation before slowly going over. It might have stayed upright if the hull wasn’t holed.

I’m sort of amazed that the crew wasn’t injured. Sort of like being a kid and jumping off a swing at the top of the arc - it’s not the fall it’s the landing :)
 
Jun 29, 2010
1,287
Beneteau First 235 Lake Minnetonka, MN
Looks like they are just going to skip the rest of the round robin and fix the boat. Also got the batteries out and no hydraulic fluid leaked in to the sea.


Guess it was the smack down on the water that holed her.
 
Sep 20, 2014
1,320
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
For what happened, I'm surprised they don't have both keels/foils in the water. One to lift and the other to pull down. This would keep the boat glued to the water. If you have the windward side pulling down, you can take an indefinite amount of wind and not capsize. It seems like the greater power would more than compensate for the drag.
 
Sep 22, 2018
1,869
Hunter 216 Kingston
For what happened, I'm surprised they don't have both keels/foils in the water. One to lift and the other to pull down. This would keep the boat glued to the water. If you have the windward side pulling down, you can take an indefinite amount of wind and not capsize. It seems like the greater power would more than compensate for the drag.
I follow your thinking but from what I understand having the cant arm up on the windward side actually does pull down, the same way putting crew of the rail would.

Putting that foil in the water when the hull is moving at foiling speed or above would instantly turn the pull down to lift up - not good :)

During some of the turns they have both foils in the water to increase lift and help prevent the hull from touching down.

Challenging stuff to get your head around :)
 
Jun 29, 2010
1,287
Beneteau First 235 Lake Minnetonka, MN
For what happened, I'm surprised they don't have both keels/foils in the water. One to lift and the other to pull down. This would keep the boat glued to the water. If you have the windward side pulling down, you can take an indefinite amount of wind and not capsize. It seems like the greater power would more than compensate for the drag.
The capsize was after they got up in the air and almost went over. It slammed back on the sea and then slowly rolled over. Most likely from water entering from the hole that was created when they came back down. Not being able to ease the main enough of course contributed as well with the leeward runner not being released for whatever reason.
 
May 17, 2004
5,032
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
I follow your thinking but from what I understand having the cant arm up on the windward side actually does pull down, the same way putting crew of the rail would.

Putting that foil in the water when the hull is moving at foiling speed or above would instantly turn the pull down to lift up - not good :)

During some of the turns they have both foils in the water to increase lift and help prevent the hull from touching down.

Challenging stuff to get your head around :)
That’s my understanding too. I presume there are tabs or ways to adjust the foil angle and modulate the amount of lift, but I don’t know if they could actually be set to suck down rather than up. I also doubt teams would want to incur all the drag. Dragging both foils through a tack to prevent touch-down and the associated slowness is one thing. Doing it just to mitigate the risk of a capsize is probably not something the teams would sacrifice.
 

RussC

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Sep 11, 2015
1,578
Merit 22- Oregon lakes
That’s my understanding too. I presume there are tabs or ways to adjust the foil angle and modulate the amount of lift, but I don’t know if they could actually be set to suck down rather than up. I also doubt teams would want to incur all the drag. Dragging both foils through a tack to prevent touch-down and the associated slowness is one thing. Doing it just to mitigate the risk of a capsize is probably not something the teams would sacrifice.
I haven't really researched it, but my impression is that the foil on the bottom of the rudder is the only one that can be adjusted for pitch. I've noticed that many times in strong conditions or rough seas the bow of the boat tends to be lower than the stern, when up on the foils, which leads me to this conclusion. with the bow down, the main foils would run deeper in the water and avoid pop outs in waves etc.
just my guess and not supported by anything other than observation ;)
 
Sep 22, 2018
1,869
Hunter 216 Kingston
Doing it just to mitigate the risk of a capsize
I don’t think it would decrease the risk as they lose righting moment and gain lift - not necessarily gain stability unless they are not foiling. Dropping that other foil at the wrong time would cause all kinds of mayhem ;)
 

PaulK

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Dec 1, 2009
1,223
Sabre 402 Southport, CT
The windward foil probably wasn't deployed because they didn't think they'd need it. Then - surprise! - the 40-knot squall hit. If there hadn't been the squall, they'd have zipped off at close to 50 knots.
 
Aug 12, 2018
163
Hunter 26 Carter Lake, Colorado
I concluded when watching the replays that the eventual capsize must have been due to being suddenly stopped in the water after coming back down from the flight. Most (all?) of the resistance to heeling is from the lift of the leeward foil, isn’t it? Once stopped, or even seriously slowed, there wouldn’t be enough anti-heeling lift in that kind of wind and over she goes. The hole in the hull wouldn’t have helped but I think she’d have gone over anyway.
 
Feb 2, 2010
373
Island Packet 37 Hull #2 Harpswell Me
You can watch it all on Youtube, either a 30 minute highlight show for two races or 3 hours for the full thing.
The boats are built to similar standards but things like the wings are completely different, also crew composition is very different, Britannia is running a full time tactician which is really paying off, America Magic is not and that is showing in their terrible results. Hope they get repaired and sort out the boat and tactics before the next race.
 
Feb 2, 2010
373
Island Packet 37 Hull #2 Harpswell Me
The windward foil probably wasn't deployed because they didn't think they'd need it. Then - surprise! - the 40-knot squall hit. If there hadn't been the squall, they'd have zipped off at close to 50 knots.
The port backstay was not released and that stopped the mainsheet being dumped when the wind got up, look closely and you can see the mainsail jammed and not moving enough to dump the wind.
 
Sep 20, 2014
1,320
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
I was suggesting the boat be designed to run both foils in the water all the time, not just puting it in after you are already flying. The Hobie tri-foiler does this. If the foil gets too high, the angle changes and it pulls the boat back down. As a result, they say it can pull serious Gs in a turn, but also keeps the boat stable regardless of the amount of wind. Comparing the tri-foiler, it can do better than 40 knots. Being that its just a small 30 year old consumer boat, yet can push numbers near where these expensive monsters are racing at, suggests the concept is effective.
 
Sep 22, 2018
1,869
Hunter 216 Kingston
The event as dramatic as it was didn’t even come close to the pitch pole events in the AC 45 series. The crew of the AC 45 was 30-40’ up and dropped onto who knows what, vs the AC75 spill where all of the crew stayed aboard.That in itself is progress.

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Sep 15, 2016
790
Catalina 22 Minnesota
Make all boats the same. That is what killed auto racing. If you go back to the late 60s and 70s, that is when all the innovation happened, particularly in the Can-Am series. You listen to the teams talk about all the interesting ideas people were trying. You can talk about the limitations of money, but the reality is, there will always be a challenger. ...Making everything the same just means its only by chance who wins and who looses. At that point, no one cares.

So I have been following a lot of international racing this year with the America's Cup, Vendee, Jules Verne, Sail GP, etc... each have their merits and some interesting ideas. My favorite to watch live in its entirety is the Sail GP series (though canceled after 1 race in 2020) because its exciting and fast. For the America's cup i prefer the 20 min recap as it has all the pertinent points without all the waiting around for wind etc. However in my learning about different races I stumbled upon the commentary linked below. Its long and most of it does not pertain to the America's cup but from 2:53-14:00 the commentator has some interesting ideas that could really change the America's cup. His thought is to exploit these boats for more than the upwind / downwind sailing that has traditionally been a part of racing. I would be interested in hearing people's thoughts on this rather radical idea when it comes to foiling monohulls. I must admit the more I have thought about it its not a bad idea.

 
Sep 20, 2014
1,320
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
He throws out some interesting ideas. One thing I would add to the idea is if you have multiple laps, you have buoys that are further out that you have to go around one of the 3 laps of the race, but you choose on which lap you take the longer distance. This throws out strategy, as the wind may change throughout the race, so you could really blow it, if you choose the longer path on the wrong lap. As part of the strategy, the longer buoys could be set up so you can block wind to the competitive boats.

This idea is used in watercross snowmobile racing on water. They race 3 laps, but one of the laps you have to choose the further buoy. In watercross this strategy can be a big deal, as you don't want to get caught behind the other sled as the water spray can sink your sled.
 
Oct 22, 2014
20,995
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
An interesting idea. It incorporates the idea of track racing popular in powered vehicle races to engage competition. Perhaps we sailor are stuck in the tacking duel competition idea which is connected with our old boat designs.

Watching to two sets of competition, I though the recent Prada cup was more exciting. It shows that the crews are learning to sail their boats. They was more lead changes, and there was the excitement of a crash of the leading boat. All of it in a confined space and under limited time frame. Made it good for a TV audience. Made it good to generate money.

Not many are willing to sit through the 24hours of LeMans watching the race on TV.
 
Jun 29, 2010
1,287
Beneteau First 235 Lake Minnetonka, MN
Not many are willing to sit through the 24hours of LeMans watching the race on TV.
I am one of the apparent few that records it all and watches it. Actually, I have a few friends that do the same. 24 hours of Daytona coming up soon too. Le Mans is on the bucket list, already do Indy, except this past year of course, for the last 11 years. AS far as I am concerned, auto racing is doing just fine in IndyCar, F1, NASCAR, IMSA, etc.. they aren't all spec cars as has been alluded to above. Lamenting for the 60's & 70'd again, whether auto racing, America's Cup, or other sailing competition is just being stuck in the past. Seriously, going back 50-60 years is just well.....