Post your passenger limits

Crazy Dave Condon · Jul 11, 2012

Whenever there is a flying bridge or one above the deck, many tend to forget that adding weight to any boat as in the case of the silverton will raise the center of gravity which many do not think about causing a boat to heel more quickly.

In the past 25-30 years, I have seen just like on the highways more stupid operators. Maybe a national law mandating all skippers to go thru an extensive safety course before being allowed to pilot personal water craft of any kind is necessary and if the rules are bent and caught at it, then hit them where it really hurts, in the pocket book as they will tend to remember.

Kermit · Jul 11, 2012

First Mate and I have sailed with a total of 4 adults and 2 children. That's a lot of people for our boat. Especially when the children don't understand that Grandpa needs to be able to do what needs to be done without warning. But it was fun having them and seeing how they liked sailing.
A couple from church has been wanting to sail with us. 4 total people total is about the maximum I'm comfortable with and someone generally stands in the companionway or sits in the cabin. So this couple, who has never been on our boat, proceeded to invite another couple to go with us! Aaaarrrrgh! We haven't taken either couple yet. We'll just have to see how that one plays out. I like the "We don't have enough life jackets" excuse. Actually, it would be true unless one wouldn't mind wearing an inflatable at all times. Most folks don't like wearing any pfd. (I wear mine at all times, even while tying up and putting the sails to bed.)

Forrest15112 · Jul 11, 2012

The H23.5 has a huge cockpit that seats 6 adults very comfortable - no knees touching, etc. It isn't uncommon for me to have 4-5 adults and 3-4 kids (14-17yo) on board in mild conditions (10-15mph& <2-3ft chop). I once brought out 8 adults at night on Lake Pontchartrain in 15+ winds and almost no chop. We smoked cigars and drank lots of beer. Only one of them had ever been sailing. I know what some of you are thinking, don't worry, they were all foreigners from Germany.

wflowe2 · Jul 11, 2012

Catalina 320. You can find all the specs on the Catilina website. I don't have a clew how many folks it would take on board to sink her but I always sail with fewer than whatever that number is.

Sail123 · Jul 12, 2012

Every boat has a built in safety limit called seating.

In the daytime, how many seats? That is the daytime limit.

At nighttime, how many berths? That is the nighttime limit.

Let's test this. My 32 foot sailboat:

Daytime 8, 4 up, 4 down. That does not mean 8 on deck.

Nighttime 6

A have a canoe. Daytime 2. Nighttime 1

Now, just because my sailboat has a place to hold 8 adults comfortably, does not mean I as a skipper have any right to fill all these seats. What is the weather conditions? What is the condition of the boat? What safety equipment is on board? What is the experience level of the skipper? And on and on. You get the point.

Joe · Jul 12, 2012

Sail123 said:
Every boat has a built in safety limit called seating.

In the daytime, how many seats? That is the daytime limit.

At nighttime, how many berths? That is the nighttime limit.

Is that some guideline you found in the Coast Guard regulations book? I'm not familiar with it.

My boat doesn't have any seats what some ever.... there are benches in the cockpit, a bench over the stern lazarette.... there is a dinette with booth style benches. There's a small couch next to the galley......

So the "seating" on my boat is directly related to the width of my passengers' asses.

The sales brochure says it sleeps six.... but that's strictly a marketing ploy, 'cause anyone with a Cat 27 knows you don't even want to try to sleep 6 adults in these vessels.... not at the same time anyway. Maybe 2 adults and 3 kids....

Sail123 · Jul 13, 2012

How many people comfortably and safely fit is a boats limit. Stuffing 14 college kids in a VW Bug is not the capacity of a VW.

Putting too many people in a phone booth will get you a recording "Please try your number again, or ask your operator for assistance".

When determining the capacity of a phone booth, boat or a VW, don't confuse quantity with quality.

Sail123 · Jul 13, 2012

Someone look up Aberrant n a dictionary. People today do everything as though Aberrant is the norm.

44 oz fountain drink

1/2 pound cheeseburger plus bacon

140 HP outboard engine on a MacGregor sailboat

Car tires with I" of rubber between the rim and the road

Pants down around your knees with your underwater sticking out

Car stereos that shake windows

Pills to make your dick bigger

Surgery to make your boobs bigger

Gone are the days when intelligence was a virtue. .

Remember a time when every home had grandparents living with them? The older people brought wisdom to the family unit.

Children were taught respect, discipline, hard work.

Today, if you have ever met your grandmother, she is likely to be covered in biker tattoos and have purple hair.

Kermit · Jul 13, 2012

Sail123 said:
When determining the capacity of a phone booth, boat or a VW, don't confuse quantity with quality.

Looks like you might have to pay for quality. ;-)

capta · Jul 13, 2012

overloading a boat

Who's going to "rate" the boats? Certainly not the USCG, I hope.
After the passenger ferry capsized in I believe it was Boston Harbor, in a squall with several fatalities, the USCG was running around like a headless chicken. I was operating an 84' steel schooner on 2 hour sails 3 times a day at the time and the USCG came down and asked us to voluntarily cut our passenger capacity by 1/3! We were licensed for 49 passengers and 3 crew, a pretty big crowd when at full capacity, but not unsafe I believe. More to the point, the vessel that capsized was an aluminum catamaran much like a pontoon boat. Where was the correlation between that vessel and an 84' steel schooner specifically built to the USCG passenger carrying regulations? We refused and heard no more about it.
My point being that the powers that be, have little or no collective intelligence and further regulations will not stop idiots from killing innocents on boats (or the highways for that matter).
I'm absolutely positive that had any police or USCG vessel seen that overloaded power boat, they would have (maybe read as should have?) checked to insure there were enough life jackets aboard (doubtful) and that would have nipped the incident in the bud as the boat would have been sent back to the dock under escort. That brings up the question of why not one vessel with the authority to check the overloaded vessel's safety equipment, did so.
Were these 27 people invisible? Is Glen Cove so far out in the "boonies" that there were no policing agency vessels working on July 4th?
With over 50 years as a professional mariner, I've seen some pretty horrendous results from stupidity on the water that no amount of governmental regulations could have avoided and in fact, should have been avoided, as with this case; they were most probably NOT legal on just the life jacket policy, anyway.
Don't look for "guide lines"; use your brains. You as captain are the responsible party, no matter if something is your fault or not (ask the captain of the Exxon Valdez how this works). Shouldn't you err on the side of safety to not have to live the rest of your life with the death of 3 children on your conscience?

Ross · Jul 14, 2012

JVB said:
Capta,
You are missing the point. You can only err on the side of safety if you know the boundary. I am looking for some help for myself and others in determining safe loading limits. Otherwise it's every skipper making his own wild guess, some of which will be dangerously wrong.
JVB

There is a very easy answer to your concern . How many people do you want to be responcible for in a crisis?

Scott T-Bird · Jul 15, 2012

It's a good question, capta ...

Who would establish the capacity standards? I don't think I have a problem with the "industry" establishing capacity standards for themselves. They can use testing, Simpson's Rule, ASTM standards ... if they can find any that apply (or help develop the ASTM standards), whatever they can find or develop to apply that the industry has concensus on.

This kind of thing is done all the time by countless industries to provide a uniform standard that consumers/customers can rely upon. I'm familiar with AAMA (American Architectural Manufacturers Association) for their window and door standards. Manufacturers who want to assure their customers that their windows will perform at a consistent standard have their products tested by independant laboratories. Granted, this is voluntary on the part of manufacturers, but perhaps all legislation has to do is make it mandatory for all manufacturers to participate in safety evaluation geared toward the specific intended use of a vessel (that would make the distinctions between a Sunfish and a sport fishing boat "use" appropriate).

As Maine Sail pointed out, testing of boats is expensive, but car manufacturers perform safety tests at their own expense (passed on to the customer), why shouldn't production boat manufacturers?

Capta, you said you were "licensed" for a certain capacity on the commercial vessel that you captained. I assume you were similarly licensed to be a commercial "Captain". Yet, you indicated that you simply "believed" that the capacity was about right. Do you mean to say that you actually didn't even know? It sounds like you placed your trust in the entity that "licensed" the boat (not the Coast Guard). In fact, when the Coast Guard questioned the safety, you ignored them because you questioned their authority.

Doesn't this just highlight the absurdity of expecting recreational boat operators to actually "know" the safe capacity of a recreational boat that has not or may not have provided any actual rating of the boat they are driving? As a licensed Captain, you essentially thumbed your nose at the Coast Guard. So does that mean that a recreational "captain" can or should, too? What standard of compliance to an "Authority" should we apply? It seems to be getting even more confusing ...

capta · Jul 15, 2012

Oh boy, my big mouth

To JVB, you are absolutely right. I apologize.
As to my professional comment "I believe" regarding the passenger carrying capacity of the 84' schooner;
The boat could definitely handle the 49+3, and a whole lot more (nonpaying guests). But as a professional, your job is pretty much to insure the income of the vessel (oh come on, of course the safety of passengers & vessel.....), but if you can't generate the income, you are out of a job.
So imagine you are sailing 3 two hour trips a day, rain or shine (again wx determines sailings to some degree, & sometimes you do guess wrong, either way), but if you can; you go. One group of 49 is a church group from the midwest, families. The other is a college frat party. Now is 49 the right number? My bosses thought so, the USCG thought so or they wouldn't have given us our annual COI. And yes we sold booze aboard, & in the latter case a whole lot. As to the COI (Certificate of Inspection); I have to take that at face value, I can't do a stability test on every vessel I operate. But with experience, in theory, comes some measure of judgement. I met with the owners regarding the USCG request & it was decided that it was not a reasonable request; I did not dismiss the CG request out of hand or without thought.
Sure 35 drunk college kids would have been a lot easier on me, certainly fewer Rolaids, too.
There have been vessels that I would not operate & some, like a tug in the Caribbean on which I could shower under the water coming into the engine room through holes around the water line, that I probably shouldn't have, but I have never had a serious injury (beyond broken fingers & toes & a cracked rib or two) in 43 years as captain aboard any vessel I operated. This includes a circumnavigation under sail, numerous ocean crossings & a myriad of commercial vessels.
JVB Why not throw a dock party & keep bringing people onboard until you think it's enough. Now sit at the helm (tiller) & imagine trying to tack alone (of course no one else knows how to sail) in, say 12 knots of wind. I bet you are going to have to ask a few folks to get off. Take a look forward, could you see a kayak-er, for instance? Maybe a few more should join the party on the dock? You get the idea.
Boating should be fun. Even with 49 drunk college kids it can be fun, once a year!

Post your passenger limits

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