Port of San Diego To Halt In-water Hull Cleaning Activities In SIYB For Two Months This Winter

Sep 25, 2008
7,410
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
Like the soil remediation stupidity when then clean contaminated soil at decommissioned gasoline stations. They just haul it.somewhere, toss it like.compost and let the fuel vent into the atmosphere faster than it would have in it's original location. Then haul it back and dump it in the hole it came from.
Shuffling deck chairs.
Actually, contaminated soil must go either to an incinerator or more likely any of a number of licensed hazardous waste disposal facilities, all of which are closely monitored for leachate while the petroleum components degrade anaerobically.

As for copper loading, the rate can affect acute toxicity.
 
Mar 20, 2015
3,234
C&C 30 Mk1 Winnipeg
Actually, contaminated soil must go either to an incinerator or more likely any of a number of licensed hazardous waste disposal facilities, all of which are closely monitored for leachate while the petroleum components degrade anaerobically.
Incinerator that uses what for fuel ?
Use natural gas to burn gasoline contaminated soil ? Sounds like robbing peter to pay paul.

FWIW.. here in my province in Canada they dont incinerate the fuel contaminated soil.

The hazardous waste facilities spread it over a large area and let the fuel effectively vent into the air. While turning it like compost. I have been at the sites and watched them.

As opposed to being left in the ground where it originally was.. where it was already being monitored and was degrading anaerobically anyhow.

Most companies simply pull the tanks, bulldoze the buildings and let the land sit until the monitoring passes standards. Then they finally sell the land. Instead of wasting huge money with so called remediation by "licensed hazardous wate facilities"

Move it here move it there...
 
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Mar 20, 2015
3,234
C&C 30 Mk1 Winnipeg
As for copper loading, the rate can affect acute toxicity.
That makes sense. Just like most other things

So San Siego will now likely see a bigger spike in toxicity because all those cleanings that were deferred will now happen in a short time frame.
 
Feb 26, 2011
1,440
Achilles SD-130 Alameda, CA
What studies?

The fundamental principle by which copper ablatives work is by releasing copper. Mechanical cleaning exacerbates the release by the light abrasion of the surface layer. I’d like to read how that isn’t true.
I didn't say it wasn't true. I said that in-water hull cleaning activities do not contribute a large amount of the copper that comes from anti fouling paints. I can't find the study that I typically quote available online in its entirety any more, but here is a summary of its findings:

"Trace metals, especially copper, are commonly occurring contaminants in harbors and marinas. One source of copper to these environs is copper-based antifouling coatings used on vessel hulls. The objective of this study was to measure dissolved copper contributions from recreational vessel antifouling coatings for both passive leaching and hull cleaning activities. To accomplish this goal, three coating formulations, including hard vinyl, modified epoxy and a biocide free bottom paint were applied on fiberglass panels and placed in a harbor environment. In situ measurements of passive leaching were made using a recirculating dome system. Monthly average flux rates of dissolved copper for the hard vinyl and modified epoxy coatings were 3.7 and 4.3 microg/cm(2)/day, respectively, while flux rates for the biocide free coating was 0.2 microg/cm(2)/day. The highest passive flux rates were measured initially after cleaning activities, rapidly decreasing to a baseline rate within three days, regardless of copper-based coating formulation. Hull cleaning activities generated between 8.6 and 3.8 microg dissolved copper/cm(2)/event for the modified epoxy and hard vinyl coatings, respectively. Aggressive cleaning using an abrasive product doubled the copper emissions from the modified epoxy coating, but produced virtually no change in the much tougher hard vinyl coating. When compared on a mass basis, roughly 95% of copper is emitted during passive leaching compared to hull cleaning activities over a monthly time period for a typical 9.1 m power boat."

 
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Sep 25, 2008
7,410
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
I didn't say it wasn't true. I said that in-water hull cleaning activities do not contribute a large amount of the copper that comes from anti fouling paints. I can't find the study that I typically quote available online in its entirety any more, but here is a summary of its findings:

"Trace metals, especially copper, are commonly occurring contaminants in harbors and marinas. One source of copper to these environs is copper-based antifouling coatings used on vessel hulls. The objective of this study was to measure dissolved copper contributions from recreational vessel antifouling coatings for both passive leaching and hull cleaning activities. To accomplish this goal, three coating formulations, including hard vinyl, modified epoxy and a biocide free bottom paint were applied on fiberglass panels and placed in a harbor environment. In situ measurements of passive leaching were made using a recirculating dome system. Monthly average flux rates of dissolved copper for the hard vinyl and modified epoxy coatings were 3.7 and 4.3 microg/cm(2)/day, respectively, while flux rates for the biocide free coating was 0.2 microg/cm(2)/day. The highest passive flux rates were measured initially after cleaning activities, rapidly decreasing to a baseline rate within three days, regardless of copper-based coating formulation. Hull cleaning activities generated between 8.6 and 3.8 microg dissolved copper/cm(2)/event for the modified epoxy and hard vinyl coatings, respectively. Aggressive cleaning using an abrasive product doubled the copper emissions from the modified epoxy coating, but produced virtually no change in the much tougher hard vinyl coating. When compared on a mass basis, roughly 95% of copper is emitted during passive leaching compared to hull cleaning activities over a monthly time period for a typical 9.1 m power boat."

Actually, what you said (wrote) is:

“in-water hull cleaning activities do not contribute a significant amount of copper to the water column and multiple studies bear this out.”


You might want to re-read the study to which you refer. It demonstrates my point that the rapid release of copper caused by mechanical cleaning - up to 3X the loading rate which obviously “dissipates” (Read - disperses into the water column) days afterwards.

I get it that your business is hull cleaning but that doesn’t change the science.

The reason why copper is an effective anti-fouling is because of its toxicity. There is no dispute of that fact. Releasing it at a rate greater than that which occurs by normal dissolution can increase loading rate and therefore long-term concentration by accumulation which is why they are studying it.
 
Feb 26, 2011
1,440
Achilles SD-130 Alameda, CA
You might want to re-read the study to which you refer. It demonstrates my point that the rapid release of copper caused by mechanical cleaning - up to 3X the loading rate which obviously “dissipates” (Read - disperses into the water column) days afterwards.

I get it that your business is hull cleaning but that doesn’t change the science.

The reason why copper is an effective anti-fouling is because of its toxicity. There is no dispute of that fact. Releasing it at a rate greater than that which occurs by normal dissolution can increase loading rate and therefore long-term concentration by accumulation which is why they are studying it.
It says that 95% of the copper contributed by anti fouling paints occurs during passive leaching, not in-water hull cleaning. You keep trying to make a point that nobody is arguing. Yes, cleaning an anti fouling paint releases copper. My point is that it doesn't release very much copper and certainly not enough to bring SIYB into EPA compliance should it be banned.
 
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Jan 11, 2014
12,880
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
I dont think it matters though. it will end up in the water anyhow, even if cleaning is done on land. The copper doesnt magically disappear just because of where it is removed. Just makes people feel better.
In the end this is the issue, where in the water does the copper end up. An ablative paint will release copper as the boat sails. As a result the copper is distributed over a large area and in a large body of water. When the hull is scrubbed and the same copper is released, it is in a small area, thus the concentration levels are higher.
 
Feb 26, 2011
1,440
Achilles SD-130 Alameda, CA
In the end this is the issue, where in the water does the copper end up. An ablative paint will release copper as the boat sails. As a result the copper is distributed over a large area and in a large body of water. When the hull is scrubbed and the same copper is released, it is in a small area, thus the concentration levels are higher.
Close, but not quite. The reason boat basins and marinas become impaired for copper is not because of in-water hull cleaning. It is because these (frequently poorly-flushed) basins are filled with boats that do move far or often and the anti fouling paints with which essentially every single one of them is painted are leaching biocide into the water 24/7/365. And that's true regardless of whether it is a hard paint or an ablative one.
 
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Sep 25, 2008
7,410
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
It says that 95% of the copper contributed by anti fouling paints occurs during passive leaching, not in-water hull cleaning. You keep trying to make a point that nobody is arguing. Yes, cleaning an anti fouling paint releases copper. My point is that it doesn't release very much copper and certainly not enough to bring SIYB into EPA compliance should it be banned.
It also says the loading rate from cleaning is 3X the passive rate. I tried explaining that before but repeating it apparently is futile so I’m done. Cherry picking one contradictory study is meaningless.
 
Feb 26, 2011
1,440
Achilles SD-130 Alameda, CA
It also says the loading rate from cleaning is 3X the passive rate. I tried explaining that before but repeating it apparently is futile so I’m done. Cherry picking one contradictory study is meaningless.
Bwahahahahaha! Maybe you should learn the definition of the words "acute" and "chronic" :banghead:
 
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Mar 20, 2015
3,234
C&C 30 Mk1 Winnipeg
That only works on the volatile components, a small fraction of the residual hydrocarbon mass.
As opposed to leaving the fuel contaminated soil where it was...... where it was degrading anaerobically and also being monitored.. at much lower cost. (to the detriment of the bottom line at the local enviro company)

Much of this seems just to make people feel good or have a small improvement at a huge cost.
Plastic recycling anyone ?
"Oh the water is bad ! It's clearly the boaters.. not the million(s) people on land nearby"

In this case we need to effectively encourage/force development of antifouling that is both effective and less harmful. Not simply move the pollution (again) to a shoreside boat yard or a landfill.

Targeting the bigger marine pollution issues IMO, is what should be done.

Not introducing pollutants into the environment is, of course, the real solution.

Like I say, unless someone comes up with some amazing multiyear non-stick coating, I am not sure how that happens when toxicity is the whole reason that conventional antifouling works.
 
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Mar 20, 2015
3,234
C&C 30 Mk1 Winnipeg
loading rate from cleaning is 3X the passive rate
Has that shown to be a truly big factor when the hull cleaning is periodic ?
The period would of course change if paint technologies change, an increase in boaters etc.
Being mostly done at docks It would be in a concentrated area. On top of it already being a concentrated area with boats sitting in one spot most of the time. (not good)

Do we define offshore cleaning sites like holding tank discharge zones ? Seems unworkable.

I wish we could sit in a clubhouse and discuss. I find too much of this stuff is polarizing, especially online.
The issue of vested interests, economics over environment, environment over development, science research and funding etc. make it a bit of a mess.

Is copper really that much of a problem compared the large number of other pollutants in a large harbour ?
It's seems like a tiny issue being used for political points.

Maybe we should switch to non copper antifouling and @fstbttms needs to hire more staff and do more cleaning ;):biggrin:

The real solution of course is simple... but it is a political and social hot potato
 
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Mar 20, 2015
3,234
C&C 30 Mk1 Winnipeg
An ablative paint will release copper as the boat sails.
Most boats aren't sailing... they usually sit at docks (supposedly sailing just 14 days a year on average) leeching that copper almost constantly in one spot.


Unfortunately all the recent research papers i can find that review antifouling data are pay for access.
 
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Sep 25, 2008
7,410
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
As opposed to leaving the fuel contaminated soil where it was...... where it was degrading anaerobically and also being monitored.. at much lower cost. (to the detriment of the bottom line at the local enviro company)
Can often leach into groundwater contaminating both private and municipal water supplies, preventing redevelopment because of liability issues, causing municipalities to place deed or use restrictions because of in-situ contamination, can be transported laterally causing volatile organic air quality issues in nearby basements, etc.... are among the reasons not to leave it where it is.
 
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Feb 17, 2006
5,274
Lancer 27PS MCB Camp Pendleton KF6BL
I am not a scientist, and I bet those on the board are as ignorant as I. However, I doubt that the boats in Shelter Island are of sufficient quantity to produce high levels of copper. Is the board looking at other source of copper intrusion? Probably not. It is always easier to go after a bunch of small fish than trying to catch the big fish. If it is bad in Shelter Island, then it must be terrible in Chula Vista where there is no major flow from the bay back into the ocean. I used to clean my boat bottom when I was in Chula Vista. And after a good 20 minutes in the water, my eyes were burning.

But then what do I know.
 
Mar 20, 2015
3,234
C&C 30 Mk1 Winnipeg
causing municipalities to place deed or use restrictions because of in-situ contamination
Exactly why land ownership transfer here requires a clean test result.

At least locally, in most cases the cost of removing soil isnt worth it. They simply raze the site, to lower taxes. They can write off any capital losses and sell it years later at a profit once the soil resolves itself. Much cheaper than paying for an enviro cleanup.

I was told by one environmental tech that disturbing the soil would often cause more contamination spread ?


I used to clean my boat bottom when I was in Chula Vista. And after a good 20 minutes in the water, my eyes were burning
Wow. I wonder if they have ever analyzed what the contaminants are and what the level is for each. Surely that cant just be from antifouling regardless of whether it contains copper.
 
Feb 26, 2011
1,440
Achilles SD-130 Alameda, CA
I am not a scientist, and I bet those on the board are as ignorant as I. However, I doubt that the boats in Shelter Island are of sufficient quantity to produce high levels of copper. Is the board looking at other source of copper intrusion? Probably not. It is always easier to go after a bunch of small fish than trying to catch the big fish.
This is the problem with the internet. People who don't know what they are talking about making assumptions and posting them as if they were gospel. Of course the RWQCB has looked at other sources of copper. This particular issue has been studied for several decades.

If it is bad in Shelter Island, then it must be terrible in Chula Vista where there is no major flow from the bay back into the ocean.
:rolleyes:

san diego bay copper impairment.jpg


But then what do I know.
Precisely.