Thanks all for the feedback on the stainless steel question. Now here is a more rigging-specific inquiry. I have occasionally heard dockside experts (loafers?) say that you can create a little more adjustment room for shrouds by twisting them a turn or two in the same direction as the lay of the wire strands. Wouldn't this create an unnatural strain at the terminals? Or would the resultant strain be so small compared to what they sustain during a normal sail as to be negligable? Of course mine have plenty of adjustment room, I'm just asking for a friend, heh heh.
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Brion Toss
Irish Turnbuckle
Hello, What your loafer buddies are describing is an ancient and dishonorable instrument named in the title slot. Yes, it will shorten the wire, restoring some adjustment length to your — I mean your friend's — other turnbuckles. And yes, it will do horrible things to your wire, much worse with 1x19 than with 7x7 construction. I won't go into details here, but the terms 'torque', 'fatigue', and 'eccentric loading' figure prominently. It is amazing how these brutally nasty, shortsighted, should-be-illegal tricks continue to circulate. So the question is, why are the wires too long? It is unlikely that they have passed their elastic limit, though that's somethng you might want to check. More likely, they were always too long, or something has moved. As in mast step and/or chainplates. Have you looked at these possibilities? If the wires are simply too long, and if it's not time to replace them, you can cut off the bottom terminals and replace them with Hayn or Sta-lok terminals. Fair leads, Brion Toss
Hello, What your loafer buddies are describing is an ancient and dishonorable instrument named in the title slot. Yes, it will shorten the wire, restoring some adjustment length to your — I mean your friend's — other turnbuckles. And yes, it will do horrible things to your wire, much worse with 1x19 than with 7x7 construction. I won't go into details here, but the terms 'torque', 'fatigue', and 'eccentric loading' figure prominently. It is amazing how these brutally nasty, shortsighted, should-be-illegal tricks continue to circulate. So the question is, why are the wires too long? It is unlikely that they have passed their elastic limit, though that's somethng you might want to check. More likely, they were always too long, or something has moved. As in mast step and/or chainplates. Have you looked at these possibilities? If the wires are simply too long, and if it's not time to replace them, you can cut off the bottom terminals and replace them with Hayn or Sta-lok terminals. Fair leads, Brion Toss
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Bob
You won't believe it, but
Mine actually are OK, I was just kidding about the "friend". However, I was somewhat alarmed to find the shrouds, especially the lowers, somewhat slacker in the afternoon after two races in heavy wind conditions than they were when we left the dock in the morning. It was the first real sail of the season for my boat a couple of weeks ago, and I checked everything out pretty closely after seeing the slack, but all attachemnts, etc. looked to be OK. I retuned the rig and did two more races a couple of weeks later (same heavy wind conditions) as well as a couple of casual sails, and the rig is the way I tuned it the second time. Any thoughts? Also, I've seen shrouds and stays with what I would call minor kinks (10 to 15 degrees) in them that seem to true up with tension on them - how much of a potential problem is that if they are checked frequently?
Mine actually are OK, I was just kidding about the "friend". However, I was somewhat alarmed to find the shrouds, especially the lowers, somewhat slacker in the afternoon after two races in heavy wind conditions than they were when we left the dock in the morning. It was the first real sail of the season for my boat a couple of weeks ago, and I checked everything out pretty closely after seeing the slack, but all attachemnts, etc. looked to be OK. I retuned the rig and did two more races a couple of weeks later (same heavy wind conditions) as well as a couple of casual sails, and the rig is the way I tuned it the second time. Any thoughts? Also, I've seen shrouds and stays with what I would call minor kinks (10 to 15 degrees) in them that seem to true up with tension on them - how much of a potential problem is that if they are checked frequently?
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Brion Toss
Hmmm
Hi again, Was this new wire? If not, what did you base the tune on? Had that tune worked before? If so, in what windspeeds? That last might be most important, as optimal tune is relative to load. Which means that if you go to light airs, you could well be overtuned, and less efficient. As for kinks, any actual kink is grounds for taking the wire out of service. But if they are gradual deflections, or 'doglegs', they'll have little or no effect on wire strength or longevity. And if they tune out readily, they're not kinks, which by definition form a distinct angle in the wire, permanently deforming it. Fair leads, Brion Toss
Hi again, Was this new wire? If not, what did you base the tune on? Had that tune worked before? If so, in what windspeeds? That last might be most important, as optimal tune is relative to load. Which means that if you go to light airs, you could well be overtuned, and less efficient. As for kinks, any actual kink is grounds for taking the wire out of service. But if they are gradual deflections, or 'doglegs', they'll have little or no effect on wire strength or longevity. And if they tune out readily, they're not kinks, which by definition form a distinct angle in the wire, permanently deforming it. Fair leads, Brion Toss
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Fred
Loosening shrouds
They're ALL loosening? Are you really, really, REALLY sure something else is not moving? Are your turnbuckles safety wired or fitted with cotter pins/rings? I would also check your keel step (keel-stepped mast) or compression post (deck-stepped mast). Some deck stepped masts are supported by a reinforced bulkhead or beam which might flex, deform, or rot. The compression post or bulkhead may sit on the cabin sole (liner) which is in turn supported by metal, wood, or composite blocks fitted between the sole and the hull. The blocks sometimes rot, rust, or move and allow the mast to move downward. Doesn't take much to slack off the rig. The bolts securing the chainplates might be wearing through. The holes in the hull or bulkhead that they pass through may be elongating. You will have to pull the bolts and some chainplates to find this out. Bear in mind that a slack starboard stay can be caused by a moving port chainplate & so on. Let us know solution to mystery. Fred
They're ALL loosening? Are you really, really, REALLY sure something else is not moving? Are your turnbuckles safety wired or fitted with cotter pins/rings? I would also check your keel step (keel-stepped mast) or compression post (deck-stepped mast). Some deck stepped masts are supported by a reinforced bulkhead or beam which might flex, deform, or rot. The compression post or bulkhead may sit on the cabin sole (liner) which is in turn supported by metal, wood, or composite blocks fitted between the sole and the hull. The blocks sometimes rot, rust, or move and allow the mast to move downward. Doesn't take much to slack off the rig. The bolts securing the chainplates might be wearing through. The holes in the hull or bulkhead that they pass through may be elongating. You will have to pull the bolts and some chainplates to find this out. Bear in mind that a slack starboard stay can be caused by a moving port chainplate & so on. Let us know solution to mystery. Fred
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Bob
Great food for thought
Thanks for giving so much thought to this issue, Brion and Fred. Some of what you said had occurred to me, and some had not (elongated tang holes, etc.) I am especially sensitive to chainplate mounting integrity on this boat (Ericson 23) since the port side has a substantially different set-up than stabbord. Both chainplates are robust, but the port one attaches to a plywood bulkhead, which itself bolts to the liner and hull. Some of us E23 owners have made additional plates for sistering the other side of the chainplate/bulkhead attachment, and which extend to encompass the liner/hull bolts as well. Additionally, on mine I have installed larger bolts at this location, as I was not impressed by the size of the originals. Settings are now constant, after sailing in 2 races with winds to 25 and a more relaxed afternoon sail later in the week. I wonder if I had something bound up when originally setting up the rig and whether it might have released sometime later that first day. Wind was pretty impressive.
Thanks for giving so much thought to this issue, Brion and Fred. Some of what you said had occurred to me, and some had not (elongated tang holes, etc.) I am especially sensitive to chainplate mounting integrity on this boat (Ericson 23) since the port side has a substantially different set-up than stabbord. Both chainplates are robust, but the port one attaches to a plywood bulkhead, which itself bolts to the liner and hull. Some of us E23 owners have made additional plates for sistering the other side of the chainplate/bulkhead attachment, and which extend to encompass the liner/hull bolts as well. Additionally, on mine I have installed larger bolts at this location, as I was not impressed by the size of the originals. Settings are now constant, after sailing in 2 races with winds to 25 and a more relaxed afternoon sail later in the week. I wonder if I had something bound up when originally setting up the rig and whether it might have released sometime later that first day. Wind was pretty impressive.
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