Don - after two seasons of sailing I've come to realize that there are some basic questions I can't answer about points of sail and sail trim. I'm afraid this post is lengthy but I'm hoping you (and others) have the time to read carefully and help me out. In my sailing training my first exposure to "points of sail" was to the five points: 1) closehauled 2) close reach 3) beam reach 4) broad reach 5) (dead) run 1, 3 and 5 are exact relative wind headings (1=as close to wind as you can, say 45 degrees; 2=90 degrees; 5=180 degress (dead run)). #2 and #4 are the ranges between the others. However, many people including your book reduce this to just three: pointing, reaching and running. It seems to me that people mean exactly closehauled when they say pointing. Is that right? Then there is "windward". Page 4 of your chart has windward, close reach, broad reach and run, which would indicate that by "windward" you mean "closehauled"? The three charts on pages 1 and 2 for the main sail are labelled windward, reach and run. If windward is closehauled and run is a dead run, is reaching from say 50 degrees to 175 degrees? I'm not sure, and this leads me to the following question, which is perhaps the crux of my confusion: At some point between a beam reach and a dead run, the main sail stops acting like an airfoil generating lift IE lift is when the wind hits the luff first and travels across to the leech and the telltails are flying. At some point you sheet the main back in so it is perpendicular to the wind. I'm confused as to when this happens. My CYA Basic Crusing Skills book indicates to go perpendicular to the wind with the main as soon as you bear off more than a beam reach IE 95 degrees and beyond. However, it seems to me that you can keep the main at an angle of attack of 45 degrees until the sail hits the spreader. Not counting twist and without swept-back spreaders, this could be as far as 135 degrees. So practically speaking, the first theory here has you pulling in the main after bearing away from a beam reach onto a broach reach to get the main perpendicular to the wind. The second idea has you still sheeting out more and more as you go beyond a beam reach, say between 95 degrees and 135 degrees to keep the main flying at a 45 degree angle of attack such that you don't sheet in to get the main perpendicular to the wind until the main is against the spreader. Which of the above is correct? When people reduce the points of sail to just three: pointing (windward), reaching and running: - does pointing refer only to closehauled and not include close reaching? - does reaching refer to the entire range that the main is generating lift? This could be from about 50 to 95 degrees (or 135 degrees as the case above may be)? - does running refer to that range where the main is first perpendicular to the wind (95 or 135 degrees as the case above may be) down to a dead run of 180 degrees? Or does running still mean only a dead run? Help! I can't get my head around these issues. It keeps me awake at night! Another detail and question: With my swept-back spreaders (no backstay) there comes a point on a deep broad reach well before a dead run where the wind actually hits the leech of the main first because the boom can't go out far enough to have the main perpendicular to the wind. Is there anything wrong with sailing like this or should I avoid any mainsail position beyond perpendicular to the wind and start gybing from this point? EG in my my boat this might mean avoiding anything deeper than maybe 155 degrees or so and making a series of gybes. The above issue gives me concern over the term "broad reach". A broad reach is from about 95 degrees to 175 degrees. This is OK if one goes mainsail perpendicular to the wind right after bearing away from a beam reach, because the sail trim issues are the same throughout the entire broad reach range (main is perpendicular). However, if it is correct (or desirable or useful) to keep the main flying until you are forced by the spreader to sheet in to get the main perpendicular to the wind, then there is a drastic sail trim change in the middle of the range of the broad reach point of sail! In this latter case I would then be confused about the Sail Trim Chart on page 4 where there is "Broad Reach" between "Close Reach" and "Run"! Then there is beating. I learned that "beating" is a series of tacks while closehauled to make good a track to an upwind destination. So, beating is not really a point of sail but implies being closehauled on a series of alternate tacks. Thanks to anyone with the time and patience to get this far and understand my isses!
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- Jan 22, 2008
- 519
yes
Without being facitious (sp), the answer to most of your questions is generally... yes! Obviously there are subtle differences, but generally if wind is coming from more forward than abeam, then you are going to windward which could be classified as close hauled, close reaching, and the combination of tacks as you say, called beating, or beating upwind or beating to windward, uphill etc. When the wind is more from the beam your are generally reaching, but that could be a close or broad reach the further aft the wind is coming from. When the wind is coming over the quarter (back corner of the boat), you can generally say that are running downwind, which could be a downright dangerous dead run or slightly off the wind. The bottom line is that it is less about where the wind hits the sail first as where it comes across the hull. Remember that you could be running under bare poles, reaching under bare poles, and even beating under bare poles. To push the concept further you can be running under a spinnaker, but you can also be doing a broad reach or reach under a spinnaker as well. Then there is lying ahull stern to, broad to the sea, trailing warps, head to wind on a sea anchor, and of course hove to... now try to explain that point of sail from the prespective of the wind on the sails... the wind backs the jib, luffs the main, but the rudder keeps the wind on either the port of starboard bow, and the boats drifts slowly downwind. Hope you get my point without being offended.
Without being facitious (sp), the answer to most of your questions is generally... yes! Obviously there are subtle differences, but generally if wind is coming from more forward than abeam, then you are going to windward which could be classified as close hauled, close reaching, and the combination of tacks as you say, called beating, or beating upwind or beating to windward, uphill etc. When the wind is more from the beam your are generally reaching, but that could be a close or broad reach the further aft the wind is coming from. When the wind is coming over the quarter (back corner of the boat), you can generally say that are running downwind, which could be a downright dangerous dead run or slightly off the wind. The bottom line is that it is less about where the wind hits the sail first as where it comes across the hull. Remember that you could be running under bare poles, reaching under bare poles, and even beating under bare poles. To push the concept further you can be running under a spinnaker, but you can also be doing a broad reach or reach under a spinnaker as well. Then there is lying ahull stern to, broad to the sea, trailing warps, head to wind on a sea anchor, and of course hove to... now try to explain that point of sail from the prespective of the wind on the sails... the wind backs the jib, luffs the main, but the rudder keeps the wind on either the port of starboard bow, and the boats drifts slowly downwind. Hope you get my point without being offended.
roger Roger
I'm afraid I may have put too many questions into one post. Let me isolate a point of sail trim removed from any context of terminology. Say you are on a beam reach, with the wind coming directly over the beam ;-) 90 degrees off the wind. Now, you bear away onto a broad reach, say to 135 degrees such that you now have a quartering tailwind. Say you do this gradually, with 4 changes of around 10 degrees each. What trim actions were taken on the mainsail (sheet/traveller) during those changes? Ignore vang, twist etc for now. Was it eased out a bit more each time, keeping a similar angle of attack? Or was it at some point sheeted in to put the main perpendicular to the wind to get it's full pushing force? Personally, I continually ease the main sheet all the way from closehauled to a deep broad reach. IE I leat the boom out more and more over the full range from 45 degres off wind to 135 degrees off wind. However, I'm looking at a sailing book where although it says exactly this in one place, on the same page it says to pull the boom back towards the centerline on a broad reach to put the boom perpendicular to the wind. It even has a diagram showing the boom closer to the centerline on a broad reach than when on a beam reach! My lake is still frozen so I can't go out and experiment for at least two more months. ...RickM...
I'm afraid I may have put too many questions into one post. Let me isolate a point of sail trim removed from any context of terminology. Say you are on a beam reach, with the wind coming directly over the beam ;-) 90 degrees off the wind. Now, you bear away onto a broad reach, say to 135 degrees such that you now have a quartering tailwind. Say you do this gradually, with 4 changes of around 10 degrees each. What trim actions were taken on the mainsail (sheet/traveller) during those changes? Ignore vang, twist etc for now. Was it eased out a bit more each time, keeping a similar angle of attack? Or was it at some point sheeted in to put the main perpendicular to the wind to get it's full pushing force? Personally, I continually ease the main sheet all the way from closehauled to a deep broad reach. IE I leat the boom out more and more over the full range from 45 degres off wind to 135 degrees off wind. However, I'm looking at a sailing book where although it says exactly this in one place, on the same page it says to pull the boom back towards the centerline on a broad reach to put the boom perpendicular to the wind. It even has a diagram showing the boom closer to the centerline on a broad reach than when on a beam reach! My lake is still frozen so I can't go out and experiment for at least two more months. ...RickM...
I see your "point"
Rick, Interesting post... I'd like to see a reply from Don on your second post (simplified question) too. I understand what your going through and personally I would keep letting the boom out until, hopefully, at one point you're almost forced to pull it in to continue sailing. Although I purchased Don's Sail Trim book/chart, I haven't read them yet. (My season is soon to start so I have to get to them) But I too have these questions... so thanks for the post. Soon we'll be out testing all these theories ;D.
Rick, Interesting post... I'd like to see a reply from Don on your second post (simplified question) too. I understand what your going through and personally I would keep letting the boom out until, hopefully, at one point you're almost forced to pull it in to continue sailing. Although I purchased Don's Sail Trim book/chart, I haven't read them yet. (My season is soon to start so I have to get to them) But I too have these questions... so thanks for the post. Soon we'll be out testing all these theories ;D.
Why the terminology is important
My first lengthy post goes on and on justifying my confusion over terminology perhaps (judging by Roger's post) without clarifying why it's an issue for me. While I can read Don's book and understand all the controls and how they work and what they do, when I read "do such-and-such when reaching or running", sheesh, I don't know the range of relative wind coming over the side of the boat that the instructions apply to!
My first lengthy post goes on and on justifying my confusion over terminology perhaps (judging by Roger's post) without clarifying why it's an issue for me. While I can read Don's book and understand all the controls and how they work and what they do, when I read "do such-and-such when reaching or running", sheesh, I don't know the range of relative wind coming over the side of the boat that the instructions apply to!
Rick, if I can make a suggestion...
...Put the book/chart away and try to get your mind off this subject. Not being on one's sailboat for a long while can make our minds ramble. Wait until you can get out on your boat and sort things out or you run the risk of driving yourself crazy. I have experienced the same sort of over-analysis myself using facts and figures, models and diagrams, theories and suppositions to figure out some aspect of sail trim. But it never makes any sense until I actually experience it on the boat. Make sure you understand the relationship between APPARENT and TRUE. Points of sail expressed in degrees don't necessarily correspond to the apparent wind angle created by the boat's speed and the true wind speed and direction. 'Nuff said....you'll sleep better once the ice melts.
...Put the book/chart away and try to get your mind off this subject. Not being on one's sailboat for a long while can make our minds ramble. Wait until you can get out on your boat and sort things out or you run the risk of driving yourself crazy. I have experienced the same sort of over-analysis myself using facts and figures, models and diagrams, theories and suppositions to figure out some aspect of sail trim. But it never makes any sense until I actually experience it on the boat. Make sure you understand the relationship between APPARENT and TRUE. Points of sail expressed in degrees don't necessarily correspond to the apparent wind angle created by the boat's speed and the true wind speed and direction. 'Nuff said....you'll sleep better once the ice melts.
Rick: Sorry about your confusion but don't fret over this stuff. Sometimes we make it more complicated than it is and believe me I was the worse offender when I first got into this sail trim stuff. If you or anyone else has questions, I make "house calls". In other words, call or Email me and I'll do my best to answer. I've heard just about every question you can think off, so your not alone. Sometimes I have to messauge the questions to actually figure out what the question is. You may understand it but I have to get it into terms I understand. Sometimes mates jumble up and combine terms that are not actually connected. I really not sure where to start with my answer but I'm going to try to keep it simple -so I don't get confused!! Points Of sail - there are 5 points of sail and there are even sub headings of the 5 but basically your either sailing closehauled (going to windward), reaching (close reach, beam reach, broad reach) or running. Going to windward is short hand for closehauled. I don't like using degrees and prefer using the face of a clock as it easier for the beginners I deal with to understand. Closehauled (windward) is about 2:00. A close reach is about 2:30. A beam reach is about 3:00. A broad reach is about 3:30 to 4:00 and a run is about 5:30 to 6:30. So reaching is between 2:30 to 5:30. Pointing and closehauled go together. Pointing means you are trying to sail as close to the eye of wind as possable, which is closehauled or windward. With that in mind, you can't point on a close reach because as you come up toward the eye of the wind you are going from a close reach to closhauled. I really don't understand the paragraph that begins with "at some point between a beam reach ----" so I don't know the correct answer. I assume you want to know where the boom should be when sailing downwind. Assume your bow is pointing at 12:00 and your sailing DDW. The boom would be pointing at 3:00. To go any further, like to 2:30, even though you can without spreaders, is counter productive. I'm not sure what your getting at with the paragraphs "another detail question" and "the above issue gives me concern". Your definition of beating is correct. "Beating to windward" is a series of closehauled tacks. Joe of San Diego has got it right and in the beginning I was always into over analysis. Many, many of the concepts I read about made no sense to me UNTIL I tried them out on the water. Once I read a sail trim article by Buddy Melges and another one by another author on the some aspect of sailing. Both were directly opposite of each other on the same exact same subject and I did not understand what either was saying. I could not see it in my mind. It all made sense when I tried it out on my boat. Every concept in my book and chart has been tested on my boat so I know they work. Incidently, Buddy was right and I could never get the other guys trim suggestion to work. Hope I helped you out a bit. You are much farther ahead in sail trim than you think you are. Sail trim is not nuclear research. In other words , it does not go on and on and is very simple. Like me, when the lights finally go completely on for you, you'll be saying to yourself how simple it was. Whew, I'm tired and I think I'll "plow the froth off a few beers" and relax!!!
Hey Joe
Thanks, Joe. I'm just back from being at the lake for the weekend, watching the ice melt. I found a ramp down the lake that will let me launch the boat a month earlier than I can in my own marina. That was a great find! I agree with your (and Don's) point of over-analysis and waiting until I'm back on the water. On the other hand, that's easy for you guys in California to tell a Canadian whose boat is on the hard for _eight_ months! All kidding aside, I appreciate the comments. One reason I keep going over it is so I don't forget all that I learned last year! You mentioned my reference to "degrees". In all cases I mean the angle of the apparent wind coming over the bow of the boat. Zero would be in irons; 90 degrees a beam reach; 180 a dead run. Don's use of a clock is OK too. Hopefully everyone understands that we're all talking about apparent (or relative) wind which is a combination of true wind and boat movement. ...RickM...
Thanks, Joe. I'm just back from being at the lake for the weekend, watching the ice melt. I found a ramp down the lake that will let me launch the boat a month earlier than I can in my own marina. That was a great find! I agree with your (and Don's) point of over-analysis and waiting until I'm back on the water. On the other hand, that's easy for you guys in California to tell a Canadian whose boat is on the hard for _eight_ months! All kidding aside, I appreciate the comments. One reason I keep going over it is so I don't forget all that I learned last year! You mentioned my reference to "degrees". In all cases I mean the angle of the apparent wind coming over the bow of the boat. Zero would be in irons; 90 degrees a beam reach; 180 a dead run. Don's use of a clock is OK too. Hopefully everyone understands that we're all talking about apparent (or relative) wind which is a combination of true wind and boat movement. ...RickM...
Thanks Don
Don - Thanks for the time you put into your answer. You clarified several issues with terminology. Just now I wrote and rewrote a question but erased it all. I've booked a one-week sailing trip off Vancouver Island. 5 weeks from now I'm off to the coast with your book and chart under my arm. I'm going with a sailing buddy that sails a Tanzer 22 on the same lake as I sail on. The only problem is that when he sees your book the cat will be out of the bag and he'll realize why he's only ever seen the stern of my boat. Oh well, I was going to let him in on the secrets eventually anyway... ;-) ...RickM...
Don - Thanks for the time you put into your answer. You clarified several issues with terminology. Just now I wrote and rewrote a question but erased it all. I've booked a one-week sailing trip off Vancouver Island. 5 weeks from now I'm off to the coast with your book and chart under my arm. I'm going with a sailing buddy that sails a Tanzer 22 on the same lake as I sail on. The only problem is that when he sees your book the cat will be out of the bag and he'll realize why he's only ever seen the stern of my boat. Oh well, I was going to let him in on the secrets eventually anyway... ;-) ...RickM...
And I thank you too, Don....
...for your efforts. They have made me a better sailor. Rick, have a ball on your trip.
...for your efforts. They have made me a better sailor. Rick, have a ball on your trip.
Joe and Rick: Thank you for the kind words. They make my day because my goal is that no one will have to go through what I went through to learn how to trim the main and jib properly. In the beginning, it was awful for me with all the conflicting infomation fellow sailors gave me and the sailing school in Newport Beach, where I spent over $800, was not much better. I was great at all the dock stuff and motoring but I could not read the wind. I had no idea what the wind was doing to my sails and could not figure out what the sail trim controls actually did and the instructors could not explain it to me. Maybe I was just dense. I saw all the other students nodding their heads so I thought I was the class idiot but come to find out they had no idea what was going on either. Once the lights went on and I figured it out, I could not believe how simple it actually is. To me, it is all in the presentation. It is like reading a computer book - I get lost after the 5th page when they introduce all those technical terms. I tried not to make that mistake when I wrote the The Sail Trim Users Guide. The proof is in the pudding and I get very few questions about the material so I assume it is written so most beginners to intermediates can get it.
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