Pointing higher?

Sep 15, 2016
790
Catalina 22 Minnesota
So this weekend my children and I participated in our first ever race. I have a set of twins that are 11 and a 7 year old who were my sole crew along. We raced our 1987 Catalina 22 wing keel with original 30 year old sails. I had the standard main up and a 150 genoa for a head sail with no spinnaker on this race with the kids on board. We all had a fantastic time and want to do it again sometime but I noticed I could not get the boat to point worth a darn. We were easily 10 deg off the other boats in the race and even one of the other racers commented on our lack of pointing. I know my sails are old and I am sure baggy but is there anything I can do to improve pointing outside of new sails? If I came up on the wind too much the Genoa would start to luff at the leading edge and we would loose speed. Also if I had the genoa furled and sailed with just the main we could point much better but obviously mush slower. Any ideas?
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,989
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
So this weekend my children and I participated in our first ever race. I have a set of twins that are 11 and a 7 year old who were my sole crew along. We raced our 1987 Catalina 22 wing keel with original 30 year old sails. I had the standard main up and a 150 genoa for a head sail with no spinnaker on this race with the kids on board. We all had a fantastic time and want to do it again sometime but I noticed I could not get the boat to point worth a darn. We were easily 10 deg off the other boats in the race and even one of the other racers commented on our lack of pointing. I know my sails are old and I am sure baggy but is there anything I can do to improve pointing outside of new sails? If I came up on the wind too much the Genoa would start to luff at the leading edge and we would loose speed. Also if I had the genoa furled and sailed with just the main we could point much better but obviously mush slower. Any ideas?
There's no simple answer to this question not knowing your experience/knowledge level, the actual condition of your sails, and what other boats you were racing against. It's possible to improve pointing somewhat with coaching but probably not to the extent of matching the regulars if your equipment is not up to snuff and your opponents are sailing in boats of different designs that can point higher intrinsically. Stretched out sails cannot be trimmed properly. Take 'em in to a loft and have them evaluated. Sometimes they can be re-cut to extend life.
 
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danm1

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Oct 5, 2013
164
Hunter 356 Mamaroneck, NY
Obviously impossible to know, but I would consider reefing the genoa and/or adjusting the fairleads. My experience is that a 150 is too big for beating in much over 10 knot breezes, and it is easy to get lazy about fairlead adjustment.
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,989
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Obviously impossible to know, but I would consider reefing the genoa and/or adjusting the fairleads. My experience is that a 150 is too big for beating in much over 10 knot breezes, and it is easy to get lazy about fairlead adjustment.
If the genoa is on a roller furler, roller-reefing it will not improve pointing. Moving the genoa cars aft might help.
 
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Sep 15, 2016
790
Catalina 22 Minnesota
If you're racing with your twin 11 year olds and your 7 year old, I don't need to see the official results. I already know that you won.
So true. In the PHRF rating they spotted us 18 min from the start so we led the race for the first 30 min. The smiles on the kids faces were unforgettable.

As for the additional information. I have been sailing for 23 years. I lived on a Catalina 30 for a while and a motor sailor before that. Most of my experience was off the California and Mexico coastlines from San Diego where I used to live. I have accumulated enough sea time for my 100 ton masters license with both sailing and towing endorsements and I have all required courses and tests for my license some time ago. However my ticket is no longer valid as I never kept up on it. When my occupation changed.

We adjusted the jib cars to near the far back position to try and improve sail shape and even sheeted in easy so as to not stall the boat following a tack. However although this helped a bit nothing seemed to improve our pointing very much. I realize that we are way smaller than our competitors and that in some points we will always be slower but it would be nice to be a bit closer to their pointing angle. Basically we tacked twice for he same ground they would make on a single tack.

I am not looking to be first but ideally not be passed by the entire fleet before the first mark so we could keep up with the pack a bit better. So other than finding a good sail loft, replacing sails, and fair lead adjustment is there anything else that can be done? I was thinking of playing with the weight placement in the boat and trying to keep the rudder movement more stable but I thought I would ask the pros first. We are still novice greenhorns at this and to be honest I am just excited that my kids want to go again to see what we can do to improve. In the end it means more sailing time for me as we will have to "practice" more on the lake.
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,989
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Perhaps have a rigger come out and inspect/tune your rig for PHRF racing. It might not been touched in 30 yr--my guess. It's like a piano--nobody really notices how badly one has gotten out of tune until someone who can actually play it does so. There is no magic bullet. You have to be able to trim the headsail relatively flat while keeping the draft fwd. Too much head-stay sag may work against that. The headsail is your principal driving force for up-wind performance on these masthead rigs. Perhaps our racing expert(s) here can offer something more definite. If you're going to race, finishing anywhere other than last place, then it's the old, simple equation: (time)(money) = B.O.A.T. See discussion at link below as a starting point.

https://northsails.com/sailing/en/resources/catalina-22-tuning-guide
 
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Jan 8, 2015
360
MacGregor 26S, Goman Express 30 Kerr Reservoir
Not being very familiar with a Catalina 22, you might try adding a Barber Hauler to the sheets. It helped some on my MacGregor 26S.
 
Sep 15, 2016
790
Catalina 22 Minnesota
@Kings Gambit thanks so much for the link. This will give me some things to try. I trailer sail so the rig tune can be all over based on the cable stretch. I previously tuned it somewhat looser for day sailing not realizing the tune can affect pointing so much. On larger vessels that I owned which stayed in the marina once the rig was in tune is was pretty much a non issue. While there is no magic bulletin and $$$ is always limited perhaps with some practice and a loos gauge I can improve a bit. Any other pointers would be much appreciated and thank you for this reasource. I knew those "racers" whom always got in the way of the cruisers were good guys. And perhaps if my kids seem to keep enjoying a little competition I will come over to the dark side as well. Thank you.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
OK some thoughts.

First, you have found out that even good sailors find out how much racing can make you better at going upwind, or at least show you how much you have to learn. Remember, going upwind is the biggest thing that makes you win races.

How well are you reading tell tell tails? This can really play. Also make sure you are in upwind trim.

But the biggest thing BY FAR will be your old sails. If your genoa is blown out there is no way you can go up wind well. Here's why.

Ideally, the angle created by the tack to clew, measured off the centerline of the boat is about 8-12 degrees. This angle starts to define how well you point (8 is better), but the real big part is how much (and how soon) camber develops in the sail. And old sails simply have too much too soon. With our racing sail in optimal upwind trim mode, the sail looks like a sheet of black aluminum, with a very slight wing shape to it. Think like a F-16 wing. This slight camber add only a few degrees of AOA (angle of attack) to the sails presentation to the wind. On a blown out sail, the added presentation can easily be an extra ten degrees, and its all right at the luff. Attempting to point higher simply presses the breeze against the BACKSIDE of the luff and the sail collapses. And you cannot flatten it, pulling the corners cannot pull the extra shape out of the sail.

IMG_1007.JPG
 
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Jan 1, 2006
7,039
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
A wing keel 22 will not point as high as a fin keel 22. But your rating should reflect that. You have to sail your boat to its rating and not get in the out pointing game because you will lose it. You're an experienced sailor but you have to keep in mind that you won't get the best pointing out of your boat until you've got boat speed. Just pointing the bow to how far upwind you want to sail and sheeting in will not do it. You need to employ apparent wind and lift over the keel and rudder before you can get the best upwind possible. At all times keep that boat speed up. And get decent sails.
 
Sep 17, 2012
99
Morgan 383 Fairhaven, NY
Google is your friend. Somewhere in the web is a rig tuning guide. Here's some basics in this pdf.
Headstay Sag and weather helm are pointing enemies. Tune the rig to minimize both. Sail your course to jib tell tails once you optimize jib shape & course, and play the main to keep it flat. Especially important with an old OEM Catalina genoa. A Cat. wing keel needs speed to create lift (vs fin) so don't pinch to much, go for some speed upwind to avoid leeway.

http://arizonayachtclub.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Allen.pdf
 
Sep 15, 2016
790
Catalina 22 Minnesota
you guys are great! Thanks for all the tips. @Jackdaw your discription of my sails is spot on and it's almost like you were sitting next to me because the backwind / collapse of the Genoa was definitely what I struggled with long before I should have been. I appreciate all the pointers and I think I can do a bit better by tuning the rig and adding some mast rake. I sailed with almost no rake at all and based on what I have read elsewhere it sounds like 6-8 inches is more optimal. I am sure the sails are the largest part of the equation but until I can convince santa of the "need" for new sails I will simply have to do the best I can with what I have for the time being. Still baggy sails aside I think a better mast tune on my part may give me a few more degrees and on the Mississippi river a few deg can mean miles of progress depending on wind shift. I know the Cat wing keel is not a speed demon and I will never outpoint a Hunter 35 but anything I can to to attempt to keep up with the pack would be great. It's amazing how much racing has you focusing more on the performance of the rig as opposed to just cruising and how it makes one a better sailor. I hope to catch one more race at least this fall after some practice with my crew so well just have to wait and see how tuning will improve things. Thank you all again and by all means keep those suggestions coming and if anyone has a line on a decent Genoa for a Cat 22 with Hanks that is in real good shape for a fair price drop me a line.
 
Aug 1, 2011
3,972
Catalina 270 255 Wabamun. Welcome to the marina
I know the Cat wing keel is not a speed demon and I will never outpoint a Hunter 35 but anything I can to to attempt to keep up with the pack would be great.
A wing is never an impediment, unless you are sitting beside the exact same boat, and your rating is the same as theirs. Then it's unfair and needs to be protested. I'm sure the folks in the Beneteau that we blew past on Saturday were complaining about our wing.
As for the thought about keeping up with a boat that has probably close to twice your waterline length, and sail area? Good luck with that. :)
 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
7,999
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
With crappy sails, your boat's pointing performance will always be limited. So you gotta work on tactics and speed.

Practice using the vmg function on your gps. From that data you can determine your optimal TRUE wind angle and target boat speed. Very important to have a complete set of tell tales and know how to use them.
On the course, use your boat compass and true wind direction, and the results of your vmg practice, to sail your optimal true wind angle (point) and target boat speed. Pay attention to the boat compass to detect headers and lifts.(changes in true wind direction.)

Choose your layline based on the optimal TWA. Send one of your crew to the mast to help get that big Genoa across the deck to make tacking more effecient.

The point is to work with what you have until new sails are possible. When that happens, the numbers will change...you and the kids will be even more stoked.

PS. True wind direction can be determined by averaging your close hauled headings on either tack...i.e. port tack 135, starboard 045, true wind direction. 090.
 
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Jan 16, 2012
9
San Juan 24 Big Arm, MT
I agree with everything that has been said and would add: Clean your bottom, up date your running rigging, use your kids to run the weight distribution on the boat and sail on other successful racers boats. Finally, I love my Velocitek (Pro Start) as it lets me know what's going on.
Best of luck and Good On Ya for giving your kids this gift.
 
Nov 28, 2009
495
Catalina 30 St. Croix
I had a 1987 wing/bulb Legend 35. (hunter). The draft was only 4.5' but was able to go upwind better than a J - 30. The abilty to go to windward is directly proportional to the draft.
What you need to do is not sail boat flat while going up wind. Sometimes I sailed the boat at 20 degrees of heel. Two things happen; my draft is deeper and the boat will side slip less because of the wing. Combine this with better headsail, better tined rig, possibly barber haul it tighter head stay, adjust crew weight.
Downwind in choppy water the wing keel will dampen the boat. Less up and down means more forward gain.
 
Sep 15, 2016
790
Catalina 22 Minnesota
The abilty to go to windward is directly proportional to the draft.
What you need to do is not sail boat flat while going up wind. Sometimes I sailed the boat at 20 degrees of heel. Two things happen; my draft is deeper and the boat will side slip less because of the wing.

Ok this one you're going to have to help me understand. I thought that you wanted to keep the boat flat (relatively) as the hull was a more efficient shape. That being said I did have about 15 deg of heel the whole time but I can't quite grasp the concept of the draft. Help me picture this if you would. My wing keel is 2.5 feet and when the boat is heeled the draft in the water is less not more as the angle to the bottom of the lake is less thus making overall draft less. Since the keel is still in the water the overall length does not change just its angle to the bottom. What am i missing here? Thanks again for everyone's help as these are all great pointers and I am already looking to see if I can work the cost of sails into next year's budget.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Ok this one you're going to have to help me understand. I thought that you wanted to keep the boat flat (relatively) as the hull was a more efficient shape. That being said I did have about 15 deg of heel the whole time but I can't quite grasp the concept of the draft. Help me picture this if you would. My wing keel is 2.5 feet and when the boat is heeled the draft in the water is less not more as the angle to the bottom of the lake is less thus making overall draft less. Since the keel is still in the water the overall length does not change just its angle to the bottom. What am i missing here? Thanks again for everyone's help as these are all great pointers and I am already looking to see if I can work the cost of sails into next year's budget.
Yes, maybe, close to the same draft. But the wings ability to generate any LIFT is very minimal. It really only brings the ballast lower, which help stability.

Lift is what helps you point.
 
Sep 15, 2016
790
Catalina 22 Minnesota
Ok so I am likely in way over my theoretical head here but I enjoy learning so here goes. The wings on the keel generate lift when moving through the water. Since the top is curved and the bottom is straight the low pressure draws the boat in an upward motion in much the same way that an airplane wing creates lift. When sailing downwind this theoretically lifts the hull a bit and increases speed and reduce the seesawing motion of the boat. However when heeled over at a great angle wont the added speed and hull length increase side slippage in the water? If lift is what helps you point and it is generated by the rig how is draft affected in a way in which more lift is gained to point higher at a greater heel angle? I have googled a bit on this but thus far I am failing to understand all the forces at work below the waterline in relation to pointing ability. Do any of you have a diagram or picture you can refer me to so I can better visualise what's going on? Knowledge is power and the more I learn about the physics of sailing the better I seem to be able to handle the boat. Thanks again.