pointing angle to weather

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Apr 19, 1999
1,670
Pearson Wanderer Titusville, Florida
You rang?

Everything said so far is true...and yes, there are ways to help the H23 point better. First, get the boom on the centerline. The mainsheet alone can't do it, you need the traveler. The spring-loaded pin stops on the stock H23 traveler are useless, but you can fix that. Put an upright turning block and a cam cleat on the coaming at each end of the traveler and run the traveler control lines. Slide the pin stops to the ends of the track so the car has an unobstructued run from end to end. The trick is to regulate mainsail power with the mainsheet (more tension = less twist = more power) and control its angle of attack using the traveler. Check the Forum Archives under "H23 traveler" for details of several systems built by H23 owners. Work on your boatspeed. The wing keel works best when the boat is sailing fast, i.e., at or above 5 kt. That means a clean hull and extra weight either off the boat or down low near the compression post. Don't trim the headsail all the way in when coming about (a lot of people make this mistake simply because it's easier to trim the sheet when there's no load on it). As you come out of the tack, the boat will be slow. Rather than trying to get to 45 deg off the wind right away, fall off to a close reach and trim for that heading. H23's are fast on a close reach, so the boat will accelerate quickly. As the boat accelerates, the apparent wind will move forward. Sheet in to maintain proper sail trim and boatspeed and head up. If the boat starts to slow, fall off a bit and build speed again. Sail trim is important. Adjust the sails until you have the main and jib are balanced. You'll know it because the helm will become light. The boat is now keeping itself on course, so you don't have to use the helm to force it to stay there. You need some weather helm to create hydrodynamic lift but not much. Too much weather helm and the rudder starts acting like a brake. Trim the sails for what feels right (a light helm) not for what looks good. I often sail with a big bubble backwinded in the luff. It looks ugly to others but not for long, if you catch my drift. Don't rely on your compass alone to tell you whether you're pointing well. Just because it says you're tacking through 90 degrees doesn't mean you're sailing at 45 deg off the wind. A compass indicates heading, not course over ground (COG). Your course could be 60 deg. or more off the wind and you may not realize it. Check your actual COG with a GPS or some fixed reference in the water, e.g. a channel marker. Know when to point. Pointing high is easier with steady wind and flat water. It's much harder to do in light air, gusty air or waves. Now for the bad news...the wind changes speed and direction constantly, so just when you think you have it all worked out, you have to adjust again. Good luck. Peter H23 "Raven"
 
Apr 19, 1999
1,670
Pearson Wanderer Titusville, Florida
You rang?

Everything said so far is true...and yes, there are ways to help the H23 point better. First, get the boom on the centerline. The mainsheet alone can't do it, you need the traveler. The spring-loaded pin stops on the stock H23 traveler are useless, but you can fix that. Put an upright turning block and a cam cleat on the coaming at each end of the traveler and run the traveler control lines. Slide the pin stops to the ends of the track so the car has an unobstructued run from end to end. The trick is to regulate mainsail power with the mainsheet (more tension = less twist = more power) and control its angle of attack using the traveler. Check the Forum Archives under "H23 traveler" for details of several systems built by H23 owners. Work on your boatspeed. The wing keel works best when the boat is sailing fast, i.e., at or above 5 kt. That means a clean hull and extra weight either off the boat or down low near the compression post. Don't trim the headsail all the way in when coming about (a lot of people make this mistake simply because it's easier to trim the sheet when there's no load on it). As you come out of the tack, the boat will be slow. Rather than trying to get to 45 deg off the wind right away, fall off to a close reach and trim for that heading. H23's are fast on a close reach, so the boat will accelerate quickly. As the boat accelerates, the apparent wind will move forward. Sheet in to maintain proper sail trim and boatspeed and head up. If the boat starts to slow, fall off a bit and build speed again. Sail trim is important. Adjust the sails until you have the main and jib are balanced. You'll know it because the helm will become light. The boat is now keeping itself on course, so you don't have to use the helm to force it to stay there. You need some weather helm to create hydrodynamic lift but not much. Too much weather helm and the rudder starts acting like a brake. Trim the sails for what feels right (a light helm) not for what looks good. I often sail with a big bubble backwinded in the luff. It looks ugly to others but not for long, if you catch my drift. Don't rely on your compass alone to tell you whether you're pointing well. Just because it says you're tacking through 90 degrees doesn't mean you're sailing at 45 deg off the wind. A compass indicates heading, not course over ground (COG). Your course could be 60 deg. or more off the wind and you may not realize it. Check your actual COG with a GPS or some fixed reference in the water, e.g. a channel marker. Know when to point. Pointing high is easier with steady wind and flat water. It's much harder to do in light air, gusty air or waves. Now for the bad news...the wind changes speed and direction constantly, so just when you think you have it all worked out, you have to adjust again. Good luck. Peter H23 "Raven"
 
Apr 19, 1999
1,670
Pearson Wanderer Titusville, Florida
You rang?

Everything said so far is true...and yes, there are ways to help the H23 point better. First, get the boom on the centerline. The mainsheet alone can't do it, you need the traveler. The spring-loaded pin stops on the stock H23 traveler are useless, but you can fix that. Put an upright turning block and a cam cleat on the coaming at each end of the traveler and run the traveler control lines. Slide the pin stops to the ends of the track so the car has an unobstructued run from end to end. The trick is to regulate mainsail power with the mainsheet (more tension = less twist = more power) and control its angle of attack using the traveler. Check the Forum Archives under "H23 traveler" for details of several systems built by H23 owners. Work on your boatspeed. The wing keel works best when the boat is sailing fast, i.e., at or above 5 kt. That means a clean hull and extra weight either off the boat or down low near the compression post. Don't trim the headsail all the way in when coming about (a lot of people make this mistake simply because it's easier to trim the sheet when there's no load on it). As you come out of the tack, the boat will be slow. Rather than trying to get to 45 deg off the wind right away, fall off to a close reach and trim for that heading. H23's are fast on a close reach, so the boat will accelerate quickly. As the boat accelerates, the apparent wind will move forward. Sheet in to maintain proper sail trim and boatspeed and head up. If the boat starts to slow, fall off a bit and build speed again. Sail trim is important. Adjust the sails until you have the main and jib are balanced. You'll know it because the helm will become light. The boat is now keeping itself on course, so you don't have to use the helm to force it to stay there. You need some weather helm to create hydrodynamic lift but not much. Too much weather helm and the rudder starts acting like a brake. Trim the sails for what feels right (a light helm) not for what looks good. I often sail with a big bubble backwinded in the luff. It looks ugly to others but not for long, if you catch my drift. Don't rely on your compass alone to tell you whether you're pointing well. Just because it says you're tacking through 90 degrees doesn't mean you're sailing at 45 deg off the wind. A compass indicates heading, not course over ground (COG). Your course could be 60 deg. or more off the wind and you may not realize it. Check your actual COG with a GPS or some fixed reference in the water, e.g. a channel marker. Know when to point. Pointing high is easier with steady wind and flat water. It's much harder to do in light air, gusty air or waves. Now for the bad news...the wind changes speed and direction constantly, so just when you think you have it all worked out, you have to adjust again. Good luck. Peter H23 "Raven"
 
Apr 19, 1999
1,670
Pearson Wanderer Titusville, Florida
You rang?

Everything said so far is true...and yes, there are ways to help the H23 point better. First, get the boom on the centerline. The mainsheet alone can't do it, you need the traveler. The spring-loaded pin stops on the stock H23 traveler are useless, but you can fix that. Put an upright turning block and a cam cleat on the coaming at each end of the traveler and run the traveler control lines. Slide the pin stops to the ends of the track so the car has an unobstructued run from end to end. The trick is to regulate mainsail power with the mainsheet (more tension = less twist = more power) and control its angle of attack using the traveler. Check the Forum Archives under "H23 traveler" for details of several systems built by H23 owners. Work on your boatspeed. The wing keel works best when the boat is sailing fast, i.e., at or above 5 kt. That means a clean hull and extra weight either off the boat or down low near the compression post. Don't trim the headsail all the way in when coming about (a lot of people make this mistake simply because it's easier to trim the sheet when there's no load on it). As you come out of the tack, the boat will be slow. Rather than trying to get to 45 deg off the wind right away, fall off to a close reach and trim for that heading. H23's are fast on a close reach, so the boat will accelerate quickly. As the boat accelerates, the apparent wind will move forward. Sheet in to maintain proper sail trim and boatspeed and head up. If the boat starts to slow, fall off a bit and build speed again. Sail trim is important. Adjust the sails until you have the main and jib are balanced. You'll know it because the helm will become light. The boat is now keeping itself on course, so you don't have to use the helm to force it to stay there. You need some weather helm to create hydrodynamic lift but not much. Too much weather helm and the rudder starts acting like a brake. Trim the sails for what feels right (a light helm) not for what looks good. I often sail with a big bubble backwinded in the luff. It looks ugly to others but not for long, if you catch my drift. Don't rely on your compass alone to tell you whether you're pointing well. Just because it says you're tacking through 90 degrees doesn't mean you're sailing at 45 deg off the wind. A compass indicates heading, not course over ground (COG). Your course could be 60 deg. or more off the wind and you may not realize it. Check your actual COG with a GPS or some fixed reference in the water, e.g. a channel marker. Know when to point. Pointing high is easier with steady wind and flat water. It's much harder to do in light air, gusty air or waves. Now for the bad news...the wind changes speed and direction constantly, so just when you think you have it all worked out, you have to adjust again. Good luck. Peter H23 "Raven"
 
Oct 3, 2006
1,029
Hunter 29.5 Toms River
You do it too!

Ever since reading about over-sheeting the jib to balance the helm a bit, I always wondered if I was the only one who sailed around with the first 2' behind the luff of my mainsail looking absolutley useless. Well, I guess it's useful for something, but not going upwind in the h23.
 
J

Jack h23.5

Me three

Power in the main is off the leech, which is why the tell tales are on the leech, not the luff. A small bubble is OK until you start disturbing the flow over the leech.
 
Apr 19, 1999
1,670
Pearson Wanderer Titusville, Florida
Hi Brian

That extra "bubble" of sail area comes in handy on every other point of sail. If the wind is right and you trim the weight fore and aft properly, the H23 will plane on a beam reach, which really surprises people in other boats. My personal best was 8.6 kt, and I remember Greg Stebbins in Texas who sailed at 10+ knots (not surprisingly, his boat's name was "Faster"). My problem is that my main is old and blown out. I'm sure I'd be doing things a bit differently if I had a new UK TapeDrive or North 3DL, but for right now I'll work with what I have. It looks ugly as hell but I'm sailing for speed not looks, and that's what matters. Happy sailing. Peter H23 "Raven"
 
J

Jack h23.5

There is a good chance..

what you are experiencing is surfing down the wave fronts. Most disp. hulls like ours while they can readly exceed the hull speed by a knot or so sustained its really short of a gale to actually plane on top of the water. On my P-165 I was able to sustain 6.2 knots for 15 minutes even with a hull speed of 5.2 knots. Yes it was 25 knots of wind, and yes I was on a broad reach, and no she didn't plane. Surfing is another matter. I've hit 8 knots a few times and 9 knots once while running down the front of a nice set of rollers. Either way, 8.6 knots is flying. Its been a while since I raced in the SLOBs fest/Red Lobster Cup..kind of got out of racing, and now just cruise a lot. Maybe I'll see you out there.
 
Oct 3, 2006
1,029
Hunter 29.5 Toms River
Jack

Take a look at a hunter 23 out of the water..more than half of the bottom is about as flat as a boat hull can be without being a sheet of plywood. In fact, if you were to scale a VO70 down to 23 feet long and 8' wide, I think you would end up with something very similar to the H23 hull! :) I think the main speed limiter on these boats is the shallow keel, and hence sail-carrying ability. Any more weight than the bare minimum, and it's too overloaded to plane (notice that 1 person increases the displacement by nearly 10%!) so lots of rail meat is out, as it sticking a deeper, heavier keel on it. But I'm pretty certain that the only reason my boat won't go any faster is because to go fast, you need to be flat, and to be flat I can't hang up bigger curtains. Ps: Hey Peter, before I put my boat away, I tried a new traveler "trick" ... well, not really. But my lewmar travel exploded during the season, and i was on a "tripod" setup for a while. I ended up getting delrin rods the diameter of the balls, and sliding them in place instead of recirculating balls. There is a little more friction, but I noticed that it helps out in gusty weather - the traveler doesnt so much "drop", instead it moves at a nice pace (keeps the boat from falling over to windward when the gust rips the traveler all the way to leeward). not suggesting anybody go out and break their traveler, but maybe some friction in the system (removable?) can be a good thing.
 
Sep 12, 2007
19
- - Shell Point, Fl
Mainsail adjustments

The conditions were 15-20kts and probably 2-3ft chop. The wind diminished as the day went on. I had already read many articles on trimming the H23 as well as sailmaker sites on trim and reading the telltales. The boom was adjusted with the traveller, (not pin stop type), to the center position and a little more to weather as the wind died. Halyard and Outhaul were as tight as I could get them. I did have the main bubble a couple of times, but instinct said that was wrong. Vang was not very tight since the mainsheet was in so tight. Since I was singlehanded the jib got sheeted tight on the tack. But I agree that cracking it off accellerated much better. There is no backstay adjuster, so that could have helped manage the heel. Mainsail is original, 1988. Observation of the shape is that this sail couldn't be flattened with an iron. I'd say the curvature is a good 10 inches about 15-20 inches from the mast. From there the whole sail seems to 'cup' all the way out to the ends of the battens. From those same thread archives, I wanted to address the weather helm issue before the boat went in the water. In rigging the boat, I've extended the backstay adjusters all the way out and the headstay all the way in. Then adjusted the sidestays for straightness in the mast. Weather helm is not bad at all, I'm certainly not tired from tugging on the tiller. I can feel the adjustments to jib and main or in course headings. I'm not dragging the boat down with the rudder. Thanks to all your suggestions. Next time I will probably reef and pay strict attention to sailing flat and keeping the keel in the water. Recutting of the main goes on the 'wish list'.
 
Apr 19, 1999
1,670
Pearson Wanderer Titusville, Florida
Bend the mast before you recut the main

With the backstay just slack, your mast should have a bend (or bow) in it somewhere around two to three inches (it varies slightly depending on the sail and the mast). Spread the sail on the ground, look along the luff and you'll see that it's quite curved. On a properly cut main, the maximum point of that curve should be about four inches outside the straight line connecting the head and the clew. The amount of bow (or "pre-bend") in the mast is set using the upper shrouds. There are posts on this subject in the Archives. When you tighten the backstay, you increase mast bend, which flattens the mainsail and eliminates some of the draft. It is this extra draft that is causing you to be overpowered. If your sails are old and blown out, you can't get rid of all the excess draft but you should still be able to get rid of some (of course, your mast will be really bent, which can be disconcerting). Good luck. Peter H23 "Raven"
 
Sep 12, 2007
19
- - Shell Point, Fl
Mast Bend

Thanks Peter for the great tuning tips. This weekend was kind of light, but made it easy to sail and tweak. I probably don't have the mast bent enough. I had seen posts saying to take out some of the rake. And my mast was completely straight from top to bottom. I fashoned a dockline to create an adjustable backstay tensioner. When I cranked in a bunch of pressure and sighted up the mast there was only ben in the very top. Primarily where my ZSpar mast tapers. Seemed the lowers were holding the lower sections from bowing. So I took 4 turns out of the lowers. I had heard of putting prebend in the mast with the uppers, but couldn't seem to get it without pulling the mast out of shape from side to side. I'll try it again, maybe using the backstay to gain some leverage on it. I had rigged it based on an archive post of tuning in moderate wind so the leward stays are just off of slack. Would seem they would have to be much tighter to induce permanent bend.
 
Apr 19, 1999
1,670
Pearson Wanderer Titusville, Florida
Hey Tally

You have the best mast for pre-bend, i.e., the Z-Spar. I've posted the procedure for putting prebend into the mast on more than one occasion, but at the risk of repeating myself, here goes: 1) loosen all stays 2) tension the forestay to set the desired mast rake 3) tighten the uppers until you get the desired amount of prebend 4) check to make sure the mast is straight athwartships (side-to-side) 5) tighten the lowers to stiffen the midmast (about 350 to 400 lb) 6) tighten the uppers until the leeward shroud won't go slack when closehauled under full sail in about 12 kt of breeze. The backstay should not be tight. 7) add more tension to the forestay if needed 8) add more mast bend using the backstay adjuster. You can build one quite inexpensively using a few blocks, some line and a cleat. The Harken website has several examples under "Tech Corner". Tensioning the backstay as you go upwind bends the mast, which flattens the middle of the mainsail (unlike the outhaul, which really tensions just the foot) opens the leech and increases twist, all of which depower the mainsail. This is useful going upwind when the apparent wind is faster than the true wind and weather helm is a problem. Easing the backstay straightens the mast and powers up the mainsail. This is useful off the wind when the apparent wind is slower than the true wind speed. A backstay adjuster will take your sailing to a whole new level. Good luck. Peter H23 "Raven"
 
Oct 3, 2006
1,029
Hunter 29.5 Toms River
Whoa

Thats such a nice, smooth bend. I have the kenyon mast, and when I yank on the backstay all it seems to do it bend it above the forestay. You spreaders are a LOT longer than mine, too. Probably 150% longer (I remember seeing Cliff talk about it, but never saw such a good picture) If my mast wasn't down for the winter, I'd send a similar picture. Great view though!
 
Apr 19, 1999
1,670
Pearson Wanderer Titusville, Florida
That's a typical "bendy" Z-Spar mast

The Z-Spar mast was designed to be bent,or more accurately, "bowed". As you noticed, the spreaders are very long. My understanding is that they are made that way to help bend the mast. With regular (perpendicular) spreaders, tensioning the upper shrouds pushes both spreaders in. They oppose each other exactly and nothing really happens except the compression load in the spreaders increases. With swept spreaders, tensioning the upper shrouds increases the compression load in the spreaders. The lateral component of the compression load in each spreader opposes the other as before. However, the forward components of the load in each spreader combine and push the spreader base, i.e., the middle of the mast, FORWARD. The only real resistance to this "bowing" action is the tension in the lowers, because the Z-Spar mast section by itself is quite flexible. With the lowers slack, you can put a surprising amount of bend into the mast. Tightening the turnbuckles shortens the uppers rather than tensioning them. The "bowing" action is apparently heightened by the longer spreaders, and the fact that the spreader base is about midway between the mast base and the point where the forestay and upper shrouds are attached. The rig can be set up at the dock for windy conditions by slackening the lowers, tightening/shortening the uppers to increase bend then retightening the lowers to stiffen the mast. With a backstay adjuster even more bend can be added if needed. Of corse, everything has a price. In this case, the longer spreaders limit how far in the headsail can be sheeted, which is why the H23 isn't as close-winded as some other boats. Don't sweat it...just bear off slightly and use superior speed to make up for the extra distance sailed. Peter H23 "Raven"
 
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