Pointing ability of H40 shoal draft v Deep draft

[kenackerman]

I've searched and read previous posts on this forum but haven't found any direct comparisons of pointing performance by any one who has sailed both models of the 1985 Hunter 40. By both models I mean the deep draft ~ 6' versus the shoal draft ~ 5'.

The reason for my question is that I anticipate doing a fair amount of sailing in shallower water in coastal regions of the southwestern gulf of Mexico in place like Belize, Costa Rica, etc. and have been told that the drink gets fairly skinny there.

I have only sailed the H40 deep draft and really like the pointing ability even though I have gone aground twice due to depth. (Once was at anchor and the tide went out. We broke out the scotch, hit the rack and sailed out on the next tide in the morning).

I realize that shallower keels will generally make more leeway, hence point less well. What I'm hoping for is if someone has sailed both and can say if the difference is noticeable.

The attached picture is from my H40 brochure and shows the difference between the 2 keel shapes.

 

[Rick D]

Leeway

For a foot, I'd stay with the deep keel if you have a choice. Having said that, I haven't sailed enough skinny water to have first hand experience. I have a winged shoal keel on my 40.5. While the wing helps to get some back, it can't point as high as, say, a Catalina 42 (which rates the same under SoCAL PHRF) with a deep keel without making a lot of leeway. Clearly, I can crack off and gain speed back but at the expense of maybe another tack.

I realize you were asking for a comparison, but offering this in case that doesn't materialize.

 

[kenackerman]

Re: Leeway

Rick,

Thanks for the reply !

I agree that I'd prefer to stay with the deep draft. Not having sailed those waters before gives me no first hand experience with them. I recognize that the difference of 1 foot may not seem to be great, but most of the locals there advise against it unless I want to stand off & dingy in.

 

[Bill Roosa]

I'm not thinking there is much difference between the two keels as far as leeway and pointing. The deeper draft will point better and have less leeway but all the other variables are probably going to mask that most of the time. Looks like they both have about the same surface area so speed (drag) is probably the same also.

 

[Doug13104]

I have a 1988 Hunter 40 Shoal draft, which sails like a dream. As far as her pointing abilities she sails close hauled up to 34 to 36 degrees apparent. A friend of mine had the same boat but with the six ft draft. The key word in that last sentence is "HAD". He sold the boat as he was always getting stuck in the mud and hitting stuff! If you are a racer, sure you will want the six ft keel. If you are just cruising and know you will be in shallow water then I would stay with the shoal draft keel regardless of her pointing ability.
Hope this helps.
Doug

 

[kenackerman]

Bill,

That's what I was thinking too. However, as Doug states in his post (after yours) his friend had the same boat except it was the deep draft keel and kept getting stuck. I'm assuming they were both sailing the same waters.

 

[kenackerman]

Doug,

I'm no longer a racer except that I do seem fit well with the old adage that "any time 2 sailboats are on the water within sight of each other they are racing".

It's actually the case of purchasing a shoal draft to avoid problems. It's funny that men usually talk of boats in the female sense as we do of Mother Nature. Wondering if my deep draft would be jealous if she ever found out I was "cheating" on her.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Ken, it would be rare indeed to find anyone who has sailed both a fin AND shoal draft of the very same boat, and even rarer to find one who has done that with any specific boat, as you have asked.

The reason is actually BECAUSE of the very issue you raise: the depth of the waters the skipper wants to sail in.

Like any tool, it has to be purchased with its INTENDED USE in mind.

Doug is right, and you've pretty much answered your own question, if that IS the boat you really want.

Here's an example: I'm the secretary of our International Association, so I know a LOT of the skippers of our boats. In the East, Chesapeake and Florida: wing keels (4'-3" vs. 5'-7"); West Coast and PNW almost all have the fin keels (there are two here on SF Bay with wing keels, but those boats came from somewhere else).

The internet reality is that shoal keels don't point as well, discussed for at least the last 20 years. How much? Heck, out racing just yesterday I outpointed another fin keel, same boat, quite a bit. He was new. At the same time, some of our C34 racers outpointed me!

Remember, it's not only the keel: sails and the skipper also count. You have to put all of those factors into the equation.

Good luck.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Well there is that part that sticks down into the water a little deeper that might cause the problem of getting stuck more often with the deep draft boats, don't know if there is proof though ;-).
On the subject of wing and bulb keels, they do get stuck better than a straight keel. More surface area (suction area) and the wings tend to not let you maneuver as easily when they are dragging
If the surface area resisting later forces is the same then the only thing to compare is the actual shape of the "wing" I would note that sailplanes have very long thin wings and racing boats (professional) have very small areas that look a lot like sailplane wings. Long and thin is more efficient due to tip (bottom of the keel length) drag. I beleive they call it the aspect ratio length/Area (height/area for boat keels) I don't think the aspect ratio for these two are very much different so they "should" perform about the same (except for my theory on why the deep draft run aground in deeper water)

 

[kenackerman]

Stu,

Thanks for the reply! I knew it was a long shot to find someone who had sailed both, but if you never ask you'll never know. Having raced Solings in Milwaukee I'm very aware that there are quite a few reasons why it's a lot more than just having the exact same boat. Buddy Melges never lost to anyone in the club that I recall.

 

[kenackerman]

Bill,

I agree, I think the surface area of both are fairly close and the shape of the keel bottom is probably very close if not the same. Certainly not a wing or a bulb back then.

 

[seadaddler]

Keels

I sail in SW Florida and yes lots of skinny water and I have 5' draft
and can't go where other boats with 4'/4 1/2 draft can go and some really nice places it's true wish I could go with them.
Some have a swing keel and say the only drop it when they need to
point better or really strong wind but to be honest they drop the keel very few times for sure and love the fact they hardly ever run aground.
We have a few sailboats with 6' and 5 1/2 draft and they do run aground more often when we go cruising and claim less draft is prefered even in the Bahama's and Mexico.
nick

 

[kenackerman]

Re: Keels

Nick,

Thanks for response.

BTW, both of the times I went aground I was sailing the west coast of Florida going from Sarasota to Key West but taking the scenic route down the coast line and then jumping off at Marco island and straight lining for the Dry Tortugas.

 

[waternwaves]

Ken

I think sailing a little inside of 40 deg. apparent is pretty good for a shoal draft, 10 ton comfortable condo my wife is willing to go out on.

There is another advantage with the shoal draft, when you do arrive in water that is too shallow (don't ask me how I know this) say in the mouth of a river, where there may be a half mile or more of sand to " Plow" through, you can still save yourself while trying to head back out to deeper water. The foot profile of the shoal allows a little more balanced boat weight distribution ie.. it does not rock fore and aft as the keel slows the boat. Secondly with the taper on keel to the back of the boat, there is actually a little more room for the sand to fill back in behind the keel for that 3/4 mile long sand table under the open water you have to get to.

It makes a very interesting channel in the sand behind you with the prop swirling. It also cleans all the barnacles off the very bottom of the keel.

and now for the truth about the boat anyway.

upwind in a stiff breeze, you will do quite well with the shoal keel. (actual travel with/ahead of other Bene's, Jeaneau's and later hunters , you will even keep up/pass with the Islander Peterson upwind. Across the wind and downwind the islander Peterson 40 will smoke you.

And really, you don't buy a an older H40 as a racing machine. Use it for what it was designed for, and get the shoal draft, and use the extra money for new sails so you can point higher into the wind.

 

[Jackdaw]

Between like boats, a shoal vs deep keel usually costs about 10 seconds per mile. As that is the W/L average, Double that for pure windward work. So 20 seconds a mile going upwind. Not a HUGE amount (<5%??) unless you are one design racing. I can tell you that shoal draft (5.4) First 36.7s get spat out of the fleet full of deep draft (7.1) boats. They don't stand a chance. Can't hold a lane, which is KEY to OD racing.

 

[kenackerman]

Waternwaves,

Thanks, your comparisons are a good way to comprehend the difference and make sense to me. I'm obviously not contemplating running the boat up on the beach, but if it comes to being able to dock, I'd like to know before hand that I can make it without mishap.

 

[kenackerman]

Jackdaw,

Thanks for responding.

I like your explanation also, it gives further understanding & quantification. It's good to learn these things. Never had to think about those things back in my Soling days and since becoming a cruiser never looked into it.