Please post a pic of your goose neck if you have one

[Hermit Scott]

I have a minimum of lines ran right now. I just bought 500' of SamsonLS 1/4" to start running all the lines I need/want. I started seeing just how many it will take and I am not sure about the best way to organize them.
It looks like I will have to run 2 for the one reef point on the main sail, 1 outhaul, 1topping lift, and 2 for retractable lazy jacks. I am going to run them all to the cockpit, (including the halyards but they don't hinge at the gooseneck.) I am buying a new main sail soon and I will have 3 sets of reef point, so 4 more lines and maybe a cunningham while I am at it.
I have looked at it and I don't think I want single line reefing. I know that would cut down the number of lines, but it adds complication I don't like.
I will use deck organizers or cheek blocks on the deck, I am not sure what I need AT the gooseneck, or at the bottom of the mast. Please post a pic of the bottom of the mast and how you have the gooseneck organized if you have one. Thanks

 

[DannyS]

Here's mine

Here's mine

 

[Steve Dion]

1/4"? More appropriate for a 22'-24' boat!

 

[sailingdog]

I hate to say it, but I don't think 1/4" Samson LS is really a good choice for your boat. It is too weak to work well, and too thin to handle well.

As for lines run aft, the lines I have run aft are:

1) Main Halyard
2) Spin Halyard
3) Topping Lift
4) Outhaul
5-10) Reefing lines for THREE reefs
11) Boom Brake line

You can see the way I setup the blocks on my boat here. The turning blocks are mounted to the mast step via stainless steel plates which allow the blocks to be shackled to the mast step. This avoids a lot of extra holes in the cabintop and removes the loading of the cabintop that having turning blocks mounted on it would create. If you have the option of using a mast step plate to mount the turning blocks to, I would HIGHLY recommend doing that as it is far simpler and easier to do.

Most of the lines go aft to the starboard side and to a third cabintop winch that was installed for this specific purpose.

I have a minimum of lines ran right now. I just bought 500' of SamsonLS 1/4" to start running all the lines I need/want. I started seeing just how many it will take and I am not sure about the best way to organize them.
It looks like I will have to run 2 for the one reef point on the main sail, 1 outhaul, 1topping lift, and 2 for retractable lazy jacks. I am going to run them all to the cockpit, (including the halyards but they don't hinge at the gooseneck.) I am buying a new main sail soon and I will have 3 sets of reef point, so 4 more lines and maybe a cunningham while I am at it.
I have looked at it and I don't think I want single line reefing. I know that would cut down the number of lines, but it adds complication I don't like.
I will use deck organizers or cheek blocks on the deck, I am not sure what I need AT the gooseneck, or at the bottom of the mast. Please post a pic of the bottom of the mast and how you have the gooseneck organized if you have one. Thanks

 

[Alan]

Agreed. 1/4" double braid polyester (LS) is a poor choice for halyards and control lines. If you had chosen XLS Extra then that would have been a good choice. Extra has a low stretch and high working load combined with a low turning friction of 1/4" line.
LS would be OK for lazy jacks, topping lift, or any other non control line.
I would seriously re-think your choice of line.

 

[Hermit Scott]

LS is listed as low stretch, and 1/4" is rated at 1850 lbs while xls1/4" is listed at 2200. I use LS for the main sheet(7/16") and a halyard(3/8"). Those were speced at those diameter. Though I think I could have got away with 7/16" for the halyard.
I did buy this 1/4" roll just for the lazy jacks, but thought I might run the other control lines with it.
The spec sheet for the outhaul calls for 1/4". That is what I have now.
The topping lift is no big deal either way.
Is there a concern with the reefing lines? I figured since they were fastened while not under tension that it wouldn't matter what size they were. But I have never reefed a sail in my life.

 

[sailingdog]

IMHO, on a 30' boat, you really want working halyards and lines to be about 3/8" in diameter so that you can apply a fairly decent grip without it cutting into your hands. Nice to have sheets be a bit larger, since they're handled more often, but not necessary.

If weight is a serious issue, go with a spectra or dyneema cored line that is 1/4" in diameter and then add a outer jacket to the area where you will be handling it.

 

[Hermit Scott]

Here's mine

where are all the control lines???

 

[sailingdog]

1/4" line is fine for lazy jacks, if a bit heavy... I usually use 3/16" line for lazy jacks, figuring that the boom will be really supported by the 3/8" topping lift.

1/4" Samson LS is rated at 1850 BREAKING STRENGTH. You generally want to have anywhere from a 4:1 (which is really a bit low) to a 12:1+ (usually for lifting lines carrying heavy things overhead) safety margin.

If you figure a 5:1 safety margin, that line has a SWL of only 370 lbs. Think about how much force is on the sails in a 15 knot breeze... yeah, that's pretty low.

As for the topping lift, I generally recommend going with the same diameter line as the main halyard. This means you can often use the topping lift as a backup for the main halyard, as well as use it as a line to hoist someone aloft when someone loses the main halyard up the mast.

One other point... when you have lines that are so close to their breaking load, any chafe means you're approaching potentially catastrophic failure. If your reefing line breaks while out sailing in 30 knots of wind and the main sail suddenly expands to full size...what do you think the consequences will be?

I'm using a 3/8" spectra cored line for my halyards which is 2.5 times as strong as the line the manufacturer originally had on the boat. That means even if the line chafes a bit, the chances that it will break under load from a bit of chafe is almost NON-EXISTENT. Even if the outer braid on my line chafed completely through, which is really unlikely to happen without me noticing it, the core alone is stronger than the original line spec'd for my boat.

LS is listed as low stretch, and 1/4" is rated at 1850 lbs. I use LS for the main sheet(7/16") and a halyard(3/8"). Those were speced at those diameter. Though I think I could have got away with 7/16" for the halyard.
I did buy this 1/4" roll just for the lazy jacks, but thought I might run the other control lines with it.
The spec sheet for the outhaul calls for 1/4". That is what I have now.
The topping lift is no big deal either way.
Is there a concern with the reefing lines? I figured since they were fastened while not under tension that it wouldn't matter what size they were. But I have never reefed a sail in my life.

 

[sailingdog]

You asked for a gooseneck...so he posted a photo of a gooseneck...in a wisenheimer manner.

where are all the control lines???

 

[Hermit Scott]

I just reread my original post. I was unclear about the size of the lines I already have ran. I am not using 1/4" for halyards or sheets. Even the furler line is 5/16". 3 posts up I explain which lines were going to be 1/4".
SD-UNfortunately I have a wire topping lift attached at the mast head, not a block. So I have to run a line tied to that right now. I did take your advice when I added a topping lift to another guys boat. I used 3/8" samson and a block at the top. He originally wanted wire to rope but after I told him what you suggested he went with that.
The specs call for 5/16" for the reefing lines. I intend to put a block on the sail at the reefing cringles also.
I am wondering how you guys arrange all these lines at the gooseneck though.

 

[DannyS]

where are all the control lines???

I ran them internally. Nice and clean. HONK!

 

[DannyS]

You asked for a gooseneck...so he posted a photo of a gooseneck...in a wisenheimer manner.

He actually asked for a goose neck, not a gooseneck.

 

[BobM]

1/4 inch for reefing

I'll agree that 1/4 for the topping lift is a bit thin. However, regarding reefing lines, it depends a bit how you reef. If you are using the forward reefing horn, then there shouldn't be all that much load on the reefing line. Likewise, if you tie all your reef points off, the load is dispersed and the sail is unlikely to come unreefed as Saildog suggests. That is really only the case if you have a single line reefing system, as I do, and to be frank I can really see the merits of his arguments in that case. Because my boat has lazy jacks the reef points on the sail don't even have line in them and the 1/4 line run on my 30 footer might be an issue from a chafe perspective. However, the biggest problem I have is that the current layout doesn't really provide a proper outhaul which really impacts performance when reefed. I need to rethink the system a bit. As I have posted previously, I think the lower attachment bails should differ in position for the new sail vs. the old one.

 

[Hermit Scott]

I'll agree that 1/4 for the topping lift is a bit thin. However, regarding reefing lines, it depends a bit how you reef. If you are using the forward reefing horn, then there shouldn't be all that much load on the reefing line. Likewise, if you tie all your reef points off, the load is dispersed and the sail is unlikely to come unreefed as Saildog suggests. That is really only the case if you have a single line reefing system, as I do, and to be frank I can really see the merits of his arguments in that case. Because my boat has lazy jacks the reef points on the sail don't even have line in them and the 1/4 line run on my 30 footer might be an issue from a chafe perspective. However, the biggest problem I have is that the current layout doesn't really provide a proper outhaul which really impacts performance when reefed. I need to rethink the system a bit. As I have posted previously, I think the lower attachment bails should differ in position for the new sail vs. the old one.

Absolutely, just move that 'ss loop or bail' backwards a few inches and you will have your outhaul.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Lines led aft

I...if you tie all your reef points off, the load is dispersed and the sail is unlikely to come unreefed as Saildog suggests.

Bob - I'd be verrrry careful with that statement. The bunt lines (that hold up the furled part of the main when reefed) are NOT designed at all to do what you suggest. In many cases, folks have learned why, when they tie them and depend on them to hold the sail down if a real reefing line breaks. What they get is a completely ruined sail because the cringles for the buntlines rip out completely, and are not made to support the weight of air on the sail They are only there to roll up and tidy the furled bag of sail when reefed. Most times I don't even use them at all when reefed. Maybe that's why the lazy jacks, as you've mentioned, are so helpful: They're not just for dousing mains anymore!!! A very GOOD point you made, Bob, thanks, I've noted it in the back of my mind all these years, but never had seen it mentioned in writing as you have.

Hermit - have you looked in the C30 manual to see how the lines are led aft and what their sizes are specified to be from the manufacturer? Our C34 manual shows how they're led back and the sizes required/suggested.

I also agree that regardless of the strength of the line (and your selection is questionable at best) the small diameter is going to be a real bear to USE, like gripping and handling.

Also, IIRC, I sent you a whole bunch of photos of the lines on our boat by our email correspondence. I don't have a closeup of my gooseneck, but the clew reefing lines on my boat are internal to the boom and come out the forward end with blocks that are hung on fasteners in the slot in the mast, then down to the deck organizers. External clew lines could go to cheek blocks at the forward end of the boom and then down. Pretty simple.

As I think I previously told you, we have:

Port side: cunningham and vang to swivel cam cleats on the outboard side of the cabintop, then on the inboard side near the companionway, three rope clutches (sheetstoppers) with second reef tack, second reef clew and first reef clew.

Starboard side: inboard to sheetstoppers: mainsheet, first reef tack, main halyard; outboard to swivel cam cleat: lazy jacks.

The jib halyard need not be run aft, since you have a furler keep it at the mast.

I don't have a topping lift, I have a Garhauer rigid vang. If you're running out of room, this could be left at the mast. Remember, many folks don't have topping lifts run aft and they live with it. My previous boats had topping lifts and I never saw the need to run it aft.

Outhaul: Unless you're racing, this, too, doesn't NEED to be led aft. Unless you've really seriously upgraded the standard Catalina in boom outhaul, you'll find it doesn't do too much. UNLESS, like on a good friend of mine's boat, he's improved the internal outhaul to 16:1 and led it back, but he has a well made mainsail and you can see the difference it makes. I really don't think you'll be into that kind of fine tuning for a long long time, and you can always do it later. And if your mainsail foot is a boltrope through the boom, it's not gonna move much anyway.

Why not get the necessary lines led aft and worry about the "could be done laters" for later.

BTW, I FULLY agree on your decision to go to double line reefing. If you put your second reef up high enough, you won't ever need a third one.

Stu

 

[Hermit Scott]

Bob - I'd be verrrry careful with that statement. The bunt lines (that hold up the furled part of the main when reefed) are NOT designed at all to do what you suggest. In many cases, folks have learned why, when they tie them and depend on them to hold the sail down if a real reefing line breaks. What they get is a completely ruined sail because the cringles for the buntlines rip out completely, and are not made to support the weight of air on the sail They are only there to roll up and tidy the furled bag of sail when reefed. Most times I don't even use them at all when reefed. Maybe that's why the lazy jacks, as you've mentioned, are so helpful: They're not just for dousing mains anymore!!! A very GOOD point you made, Bob, thanks, I've noted it in the back of my mind all these years, but never had seen it mentioned in writing as you have.

Hermit - have you looked in the C30 manual to see how the lines are led aft and what their sizes are specified to be from the manufacturer? Our C34 manual shows how they're led back and the sizes required/suggested.

I also agree that regardless of the strength of the line (and your selection is questionable at best) the small diameter is going to be a real bear to USE, like gripping and handling.

Also, IIRC, I sent you a whole bunch of photos of the lines on our boat by our email correspondence. I don't have a closeup of my gooseneck, but the clew reefing lines on my boat are internal to the boom and come out the forward end with blocks that are hung on fasteners in the slot in the mast, then down to the deck organizers. External clew lines could go to cheek blocks at the forward end of the boom and then down. Pretty simple.

As I think I previously told you, we have:

Port side: cunningham and vang to swivel cam cleats on the outboard side of the cabintop, then on the inboard side near the companionway, three rope clutches (sheetstoppers) with second reef tack, second reef clew and first reef clew.

Starboard side: inboard to sheetstoppers: mainsheet, first reef tack, main halyard; outboard to swivel cam cleat: lazy jacks.

The jib halyard need not be run aft, since you have a furler keep it at the mast.

I don't have a topping lift, I have a Garhauer rigid vang. If you're running out of room, this could be left at the mast. Remember, many folks don't have topping lifts run aft and they live with it. My previous boats had topping lifts and I never saw the need to run it aft.

Outhaul: Unless you're racing, this, too, doesn't NEED to be led aft. Unless you've really seriously upgraded the standard Catalina in boom outhaul, you'll find it doesn't do too much. UNLESS, like on a good friend of mine's boat, he's improved the internal outhaul to 16:1 and led it back, but he has a well made mainsail and you can see the difference it makes. I really don't think you'll be into that kind of fine tuning for a long long time, and you can always do it later. And if your mainsail foot is a boltrope through the boom, it's not gonna move much anyway.

Why not get the necessary lines led aft and worry about the "could be done laters" for later.

BTW, I FULLY agree on your decision to go to double line reefing. If you put your second reef up high enough, you won't ever need a third one.

Stu

I tried to attach a document that I got from this forum but now it says it's too big. It did originally come from the C30 website, which you directed me to. Most of the lines are not ran aft in the diagram, only the mainsheet.
I will never mess with my outhaul. The sail has a bolt rope through the foot. I will not ever run that back. The vang would be nice but not essential.
I want the topping lift ran back, the main halyard, lazy jacks and 4 or 6 reefing lines. Those are the must haves. If I don't run the topping lift back, then I have to leave the cockpit to deal with that when raising and lowering the sail.
I am not running anything with 1/4" that requires me to man handle that line under tension. The largest line in the specs is 5/16" that I am replacing with 1/4". If you look at the spec sheet I am not that far off. I guess lines have grown in diameter on 30 foot boats since this spec sheet from the 70's.
I like the way you have you lines organized to the cockpit. I remember the pics you sent. But I don't have any of the gooseneck.
I know exactly how I am going to run the lines at the bottom of the mast and on the decks.
What I don't know is how I am going to have all the lines meet at the gooseneck(pivot point) and then turn downward with out a big gaggle of blocks flapping around.

 

[Roger Long]

1/4 for the topping lift is a bit thin.

But it is nice to have a thin line running along the boom if the lift is deadheaded at the top of the mast. I like this arrangement because it is one less line running down the mast to chafe and slap.

My lift is wire and ends in a small block. A length of 5/16" braid runs from a becket block on the boom end around this block and back. A piece of 1/4" 3 strand Dacron is tied to the end of this in such a way that, if the Dacron should break or be accidentally cast off, the boom can only come down a bit below the lowest position the sail will permit.

The light line runs forward, down, and back to the cockpit since I find myself adjusting it often. A short piece of 3/8" is knotted on to the last few feet that run through the rope clutch just to be easier on the hands.

The 1/4" works well because it has enough stretch that I can't over strain the topping lift with the powerful sheet if forget to slack when hardening up to go to windward. I also have a piece of small shock cord worked into the 3 strand for a few tucks about 1/3 of the way out from the mast which runs forward to the gooseneck. The works great for keeping the topping lift quiet and preventing it from looping down to catch on things (like human necks) without needing fairleads on the boom.

 

[Ed Schenck]

This post is getting long and the ideas probably lost along the way. First let me say that I have sailed my H37C single-handed for over ten years with NO lines led back. I like that my decks are free and clear. I did finally run the staysail mainsheet back only because there was no easy way to secure it at the forward traveler.

Did you ever get an answer or picture regarding the gooseneck? On my Kenyon spars the hardware for the outhaul and reefing is part of the boom. Where are you going that you need three or four reef points on the main? That makes for a lot of hardware and lines and complexity that you will probably never use. I have probably used the second reef once in twelve years. If its blowing that hard I am tied up or the main is on the boom.

 

[sailingdog]

Stu—

I'd point out that if you're running your halyards aft, as I did, you're often doing so to line clutches and a WINCH. Then you can often dispense with the in-boom block and tackle complexity and just use the winch to properly tension the outhaul.

HS—

What does having a bolt-rope footed mainsail have to do with running the outhaul aft to the cockpit. If anything, I'd think that having a bolt-rope footed mainsail would make running the outhaul aft to where you can get some leverage and control on it more important, not less. The outhaul is one of the major controls for mainsail shape and if it isn't run back to the cockpit, how do you adjust it when sailing???