Please help with DC wiring

Maine Sail · Feb 18, 2014

Jeunesse27 said:
Thank you all for the inputs, even though some of them quite unnecessarily condescending...

I guess will be calling xantrex in the morning to confirm that in fact my chargers is essentially just a one port charger. If it is why do they bother putting 3 outputs? While also specifying that each bank needs to be a minimum of 80ah (in my case since I have the 40a model).

Your TrueCharge 40 is a single program, multi-output charger. This means it has three outputs run through diodes all controlled by one voltage program.. Each battery gets exactly the same charge profile.. It says so right in the manual, but the marketing departments try to make it so confusing most folks still don't even understand what they just read..

TrueCharge 2:

"Most Truecharge2 Battery Charger models have three outputs that share the full rated current enabling it to charge three different batteries or battery banks that either have the same chemistry or can tolerate the same charge sequence and thresholds. The Truecharge2 Battery Charger can performeither three-stage charging (Bulk, Absorption, and Float) or two-stage charging (Bulk and Absorption)."

Translation:

*"Share full rated current" = One internal power supply

*"Have the same chemistry or can tolerate the same charge sequence" = One voltage regulation circuit for all outputs feeds all batteries the same charge profile.

Almost all chargers are marketed this way, multiple outputs one charger. It essentially saves you from having to leave a battery switch on while at the dock by diode-isolating the batteries at the chargers output bus...

For those who don't have an ACR, Echo Charger or Duo type Charger this works fine for the shore charger in most* situations.

NOTE: *In mixed chemistry installations this type of charger can be a poor fit. Take a GEL house bank that needs 14.1V and an AGM starter that requires 14.6V. If you set the charger to 14.1V the GEL bank will be happy but the AGM will be chronically undercharged and will sulfate earlier than it should. Ideally this type of charger should be used on batteries using identical or nearly identical voltage regulation profiles.

ACR's & Echo type chargers work differently than a multi-output charger by isolating the batteries based on charging voltage either being present or not being present. They do this automatically for wind, solar, hydro and alternator something the shore charger can not do for you, for those other charging sources...

For those who have solar or wind, like yourself, these devices are quite useful as you don't have to be there each morning, or when ever the wind pipes up to parallel the batteries by flipping a switch. All the batteries get charged automatically..

The diodes (sometimes FET's) are there simply to prevent paralleling of the batteries when the charger is off and to prevent pulling 300A through a 10GA to 6GA wire during engine starting or in instances of high in-rush during the use of a windlass or bow thruster... Diodes act as a one-way electrical check valve and only allow current to flow to > a battery from the charger but not from one battery < to > another through the chargers output bus..

All you need to do is use one of the TC240 outputs fed to the house bank and let the ACR do the rest. Some charger makers want to see you jumper the unused outputs, Sterling, but Xantrex does not require this... You can also leave the output connected to the start battery and let the ACR still do what it does and it won't confuse the charger.

Bill Roosa · Feb 18, 2014

Hey MS
it is not so much that I don't like this crappy automation technology as I've had it leave me high and dry on several occasions. That would be fine if there was some indication that the silly thing is bad before the crisis. Guess I'm a control freak.

Maine Sail · Feb 18, 2014

Bill Roosa said:
Hey MS
it is not so much that I don't like this crappy automation technology as I've had it leave me high and dry on several occasions. That would be fine if there was some indication that the silly thing is bad before the crisis. Guess I'm a control freak.

Bill,

The ACR & other combining relays have proven to be one of the most reliable products I have ever seen in the marine environment. Far more reliable than battery chargers, alternators and starter motors. In fact I see more worn out battery switches than I do combiners (breaking before making or developing far too much voltage drop across the switch).

They are so reliable that Yandina sells their product with a 100% UNCONDITIONAL LIFETIME GUARANTEE.. I broke the mounting ears off one by accident in 3F weather by over tightenting it. I called Yandina to order a new plastic case and they insisted on sending it to me at no charge even after I insisted it was MY MISTAKE....

Also if one were to leave you "high and dry" you can still use the battery switch so there is no way one of these devices leaves you "high & dry"... They are already in addition to the manual version called a battery switch except they simply make it automatic.... You still have manual even if an Echo, Duo or ACR were to fail..... High and dry...??????

#1 Can you please explain for us, electrically, how a redundant device that simply automates a function, that you can still do manually, can leave you "high and dry" when you still have a battery switch there??

#2 Can you please tell us which combining relay left you "high and dry" and if so, how it did that, electrically speaking?

I have a few of these out there, on cruising boats, that go South each winter, that have been in almost full time use since the late 90's running on wind/solar systems where they are used 24/7/365. That is a potential of 100,000 + hours of either on/combined or standby service from a $69.00 device....

One of these boats has been through two sets of solar panels, is on the second brand of wind gen and this one has now had three or four re-builds. She is is still using the same Yandina/West Marine combiner that was installed in the late 90's.......

The idea that combiners are not reliable is not even a debatable subject, in my experience. Wayne K. at Blue Sea could also confirm that they are one of the lowest return rate products they sell.

The ONLY time I know of one failing was due to a lightning strike.... Course everything on the boat was toast too...

Echo Chargers and Duo Chargers are also very reliable and the only failure I have seen of those was a single Echo Charger that someone had apparently dropped, because there was a free floating piece rattling around inside it. This class of product is one that I can install and literally forget about as they simply do not fail like many other classes of product do........

Again these are redundant devices that simply "automate" something every boat should already be able to do with the battery switch. Some owners prefer this simplicity or need it for solar and wind charging automation....

You and OSN don't like them, that is clear, and you two continue to insinuate that anyone who does it any way other than yours is going to be left "high and dry" which is an unfounded scare tactic, or that they are simply not as smart as you guys are "what is so hard about a switch" anyone who can't figure out a switch must not have a "brain"... Anyone who disagrees with YOUR WAY is a "new breed" who should not even be breeding????

Bill Roosa said:
But Old Skool, you are obviously rough and tough and have a brain. The new breed (gasp they are breeding) can't be bothered with this sort of mundane activity. Yes, they complain mightily about the cost and when it craps out without warning leaving them with a $500 sea tow charge but they are much to gentile to turn a switch.

Yep you two are the only ones here with any "brains"... Posts like this are utterly reprehensible and completely and utterly OFFENSIVE. The "scare tactics" are also quite childish in nature..

We have an OP with 17 posts who already feels some in this thread are being condescending to him/her...

Jeunesse27 said:
Thank you all for the inputs, even though some of them quite unnecessarily condescending...

...

It is sad really that you two need to stoop to this level and disrupt every thread where an owner WANTS to automate something to make THEIR life easier....... Just because an owner chooses to do something different then you does not make it okay to indirectly or directly insult them or use unfounded scare tactics every time this subject comes up.

weinie · Feb 18, 2014

Bill,
Thanks to MS, I installed a yandina combiner on my boat between my 2 battery banks. It is a real PLEASURE to know that whenever a power source (alternator, solar, AC) is going to the house bank, my combiner is making sure that my reserve battery is always getting topped off. A little green LED on the combiner tells me that this is happening. It's nice to be able to know I could run down my main/house/engine bank and know that my single group 24 reserve battery is always at the ready!

BTW, installing the yandina, takes literally two minutes and costs only $65!

ETA: I also crew on a j105 with just a battery switch and the alternator for charging and we constantly switch back and forth on the battery switch to start and keep both batteries charged. Neither battery ever seems to get charged properly and it's always a mystery which one will start the motor!

Old Skool Neil · Feb 18, 2014

Bill,

I respect your first hand account and accept it at face value. I will add that in my first hand experience I've never had a battery switch ever give me a single problem.

Stu Jackson · Feb 19, 2014

For Bill and OSN:

I have been saying, for years, that the "B" position on the 1-2-B switch is for back up.

When I first bought my boat, before I learned about boat electrical systems, my alternator went to the C post of the 1-2-B switch.

This MEANS that when the switch is moved there is the possibility of frying diodes.

It's ALSO the way most boats come from the factory, so for new-to-them boat owners, it most likely means it's still the way the boat is wired unless the PO was smart and moved the AO to the house bank. Most haven't.

I also immediately removed the old ferro charger the PO had left me, and replaced it, after careful study of my options, with a SINGLE output Freedom 15 inverter/charger (in in 1998, still going strong).

I was thus faced with a quandary: I didn't have one of those fancy-schmasy multiple output chargers, so, with TWO charging sources, each with a SINGLE output, how do I charge my reserve bank WITHOUT MOVING MY 1-2-B switch when the alternator was running to avoid blowing the diodes? Remember, the AO still went to the C post, I hadn't yet moved it to the house bank (for many reasons: time, an old OEM Motorola alternator with a Spa Creek AutoMac that complicated the issues, etc.).

The answer was simple: a COMBINER, from Yandina. Which is STILL WORKING just fine since 1998!

The doom and gloom repeats are such nonsense.

People want to learn about their OPTIONS. We provide those options to them.

Can they still use the switch? You betcha, but if their AOs still go to the C post, and they haven't yet learned "The Whole Electrical Story" they have the possibility of frying diodes and killing alternators, until they relocate their AOs to the house bank.

I ran my boat with the combiner and the AO to the C post for a few years until I moved the AO to the house bank when I pulled out the AutoMac and put in an MC-612 external regulator.

But, as I said before, I have ALWAYS maintained that:

The "B" position on the 1-2-B switch is for BACKUP!

Give it a break guys, and let the people asking questions get the answers, 'cuz the links I provide and Maine Sail's replies have always explained this pretty well.

Their boats, their choice.

********************************************************

Basic Battery Wiring Diagrams This is a very good basic primer for boat system wiring: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6604.0.html

This is another very good basic primer for boat system wiring: The 1-2-B Switch by Maine Sail (brings together a lot of what this subject is all about)
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=137615

Ron20324 · Feb 19, 2014

Jeunesse27 said:
.... If it is why do they bother putting 3 outputs? ....

Three outputs makes it somewhat like a buss bar...makes it easier/proper to wire three batteries off that, than one output to somehow wire to three batteries.

Bill Roosa · Feb 19, 2014

Hey Stu
Not sure how I would fry my diodes unless I moved the 3-way switch to "off" which I never do unless I'm pulling maintenance on some part of the DC circuit. The engine would be off also in all those cases.
I could see a problem if the 3-way was "break-before-make" but I've not seen one of those in a while.
Always charging the entire storage and working the entire storage and only isolating the start battery when needed is not what I'd call rocket science.

Bill Roosa · Feb 19, 2014

Let me be a little more specific
If you have diode type isolation they can go bad as a short or and open. If they short you drain the "isolated" battery and potentially can't get the engine started in the morning. If they fail in the open condition then the "isolated bank" gets no charging current and again it eventually runs down.
If you use electro-mechanical isolation they have identical issues.
Neither of these types give any indication that anything is wrong until the motor does not start, which was the whole point of having them in the first place. That may be at the dock or on the hook. The former messing with that days sailing and the latter resulting in a "sail home" that may or may not support your sailing schedule.
If you use a switch then you have to actually touch it and it is pretty obvious (to me at least) that it did not do what it was supposed to. The voltage did not change or the alternator did not get loaded down or the appliances don't work.
I'm not really concerned with the reliability of any of these devices BTW. They all (the reputable ones at least) have pretty good track records. But like all things they do break or just wear out. My concern is that if you don't understand that you have to keep an eye on things and what things to keep an eye on you will be SOL.
So I guess the real issue is do I want automation that I have to check all the time or do I want a manual system that I check every time I change it.
And again, I'm not against the automation. It certainly has its place. It also certainly has issue that are not being discussed. I would say important issues.

Bill Roosa · Feb 19, 2014

Jeunesse
excuse me?
Stu gave a lucid explanation of why 3-ways (and other things) are of concern to him. I responded that I don't use my system that way. Not sure why there is an issue here.
and I'm pretty sure I've never even personally addressed you so I'm not sure where any of your disgruntlement is coming from.
Would you care to elaborate on what "not nice" thing I said?
Clearly emotions are running high. MS and Stu have their experiences, I have mine, and you certainly have yours. I've always found everybody on this site to have something to contribute. Please don't read into my comments as personal attacks. I certainly apologize if that is how they where interpreted.

Maine Sail · Feb 19, 2014

Bill Roosa said:
Let me be a little more specific
If you have diode type isolation they can go bad as a short or and open. If they short you drain the "isolated" battery and potentially can't get the engine started in the morning. If they fail in the open condition then the "isolated bank" gets no charging current and again it eventually runs down.

Just to be clear no one in this thread is discussing using a diode isolator except in relation to a multi-output charger bus which is a form of "diode isolation"... This is NOT the type of automation we are discussing here and no decent marine electrician I know, uses or has used a diode isolator in perhaps 15-20 years..

In my 16 years here you will not find one single recommendation from me for the use of a diode isolator to manage charging. Not one, ever.

You are talking apples and we are talking oranges. You are talking of a product class fraught with well known issues we are talking a class of electrical product that is perhaps unsurpassed in reliability in the marine electrical environment.

Bill Roosa said:
If you use electro-mechanical isolation they have identical issues.

Please don't hold back as to the electrical aspects of these "identical" issues. What exactly are these issues that are "identical"?

Bill Roosa said:
Neither of these types give any indication that anything is wrong until the motor does not start, which was the whole point of having them in the first place

And you'd be incorrect about that... Both the Yandina and the BSS ACR have LED's and the ability of a remote mounted LED, anywhere you please.. A simple analog volt meter, which most boaters have, tells you either are working too..

Bill Roosa said:
If you use a switch then you have to actually touch it and it is pretty obvious (to me at least) that it did not do what it was supposed to. The voltage did not change or the alternator did not get loaded down or the appliances don't work.

Please tell me how this is any different a diagnosis than anything else?

Bill Roosa said:
I'm not really concerned with the reliability of any of these devices BTW. They all (the reputable ones at least) have pretty good track records.

So good one manufacturer has an LL Bean like warranty for LIFE..... When was the last time you saw any electrical product with a LIFETIME warranty? "Pretty good" track record? How about some of the most reliable pieces of electrical gear installed on boats...

Bill Roosa said:
But like all things they do break or just wear out.

These failures are extremely rare....... In my last conversation with Yandina they had sold approx 60,000 combiners, over the last 20 years, and they have about 4-6 failed devices per year.

They even include lightning strikes in their Unconditional warranty.... This equates to a failure rate of just 0.13% to 0.2%. I can't think of another marine electrical device that even gets below 1%........ Not to say a failure can't ever happen but we are talking a 99.8% success rate, a rate far better than any VHF, starter, alternator, chart plotter, depth sounder etc. etc. on and on......

There is no way a small company can put an unconditional lifetime warranty on a product, and stand behind it as Yandina does, and stay in business if the products were not actually EXTREMELY reliable. Heck they are so reliable and trouble free that they will even replace them if your boat is hit by lightning something that is NO FAULT of Yandina's...

Bill Roosa said:
My concern is that if you don't understand that you have to keep an eye on things and what things to keep an eye on you will be SOL.

Please explain how this is any different from keeping an eye on your alternator, alternator regulator, solar controller, wind or shore charger?

The only difference is that you do not have a back up for: the solar controller, the alternator, the alternator regulator, the shore charger... With a combiner your back up is the battery switch because it is redundant automation, by design.

Oh NO, doom and gloom!!! Better carry a spare regulator, alternator, solar controller, starter motor......

Do you carry all those spares? Gonna ruin your day if you don't.....

Bill Roosa said:
So I guess the real issue is do I want automation that I have to check all the time or do I want a manual system that I check every time I change it.

This from a guy who uses his voltmeter for battery SOC.... How tough is it to glace at a voltmeter or look at an LED indicator light? Is that any tougher than knowing if your alt is dead?

Bill Roosa said:
And again, I'm not against the automation.

Really? Every time the subject comes up you begin bullying & belittling owners who have made the choice to use automation....? You were quite rude and arrogant to the OP of this thread. He has already said as much.. I do find this an odd statement though based on your past history..

Bill Roosa said:
It certainly has its place. It also certainly has issue that are not being discussed. I would say important issues.

Then please lay them out for us without making outlandish comparisons like comparing combiners to diode isolators or making accusations of poor reliability that are unfounded..

Please tell us precicesly how a fully redundant device is more dangerous than sailing with just one alternator, one starter motor, one battery bank or a forgetful human mind etc. etc....

I think sailing without beer is far more dangerous than you and OSN make combiners out to be....

gettinthere · Feb 19, 2014

Must be a really really bad winter!

Old Skool Neil · Feb 19, 2014

Let's see if this post gets removed like my last one.

I think sailing without beer is far more dangerous than you and OSN make combiners out to be....

I never said they were dangerous but somehow I'm credited with it. What I said was they're not for me and I don't understand what's so difficult in turning a battery switch. That's all. I've weathered rudeness and personal attacks for it but it appears to be acceptable.

For the record I have no problem with anyone who wants an ACR, it's their business just like my preference for simple battery switches is my business. Now what's wrong with that?

Maine Sail · Feb 19, 2014

Old Skool Neil said:
Let's see if this post gets removed like my last one.
I never said they were dangerous but somehow I'm credited with it.

Sorry about that, you are correct, the scare tactics were all Bill..

Bill Roosa · Feb 20, 2014

Hey MS
Sorry that this has gone off the deep end. I was only trying to make the point that
IF
you embrace the automation you have to still keep an eye on things.
Course if you don't embrace the automation you still have to keep an eye on things.

Jeunesse
OK, I apologize. That one was out of line. I certainly did not mean you specifically.

Maine Sail · Feb 20, 2014

Bill Roosa said:
Hey MS
Sorry that this has gone off the deep end. I was only trying to make the point that
IF
you embrace the automation you have to still keep an eye on things.
Course if you don't embrace the automation you still have to keep an eye on things.

Exactly!

Bill Roosa said:
Jeunesse
OK, I apologize. That one was out of line. I certainly did not mean you specifically.

Thank you Bill!

weinie · Feb 20, 2014

Now that everybody has kissed and made up....

Sail magazine has an article this month about installing a new battery charger. I found it interesting that there was not a single mention of using an ACR or combiner.